Fate of Sylvanas Loyalist Players

[Friendlyimmolation]

Keep dodging the part about toxic fans and trying to push the problem onto the fictional character they obssess over.

Didn't dodge it, I responded to a hysterically baseless pipe dream of a claim that Sylvanas and her toxic fans are the reason the "toxic" fans exsist in wow and push people away.

There are toxic fans of nearly every single thing in this game, to say that somehow Sylvanas fans are worse or somehow the core of the problem is the pathetic scapegoating of a non-existent problem because a fictional character triggered them so hard that they think making stuff up to make their irrational hatred seem rational.

Saying "I hate sylvanas so much it ruins my life" sounds insane.

Saying "Sylvanas ruins peoples lives irl because toxic" is still insane, but sounds a little less insane.

[Arrashi]

Keep dodging the part about toxic fans and trying to push the problem onto the fictional character they obssess over.

How are they toxic ? Perhaps in some "masculine" way ?

- - - Updated - - -

Didn't dodge it, I responded to a hysterically baseless pipe dream of a claim that Sylvanas and her toxic fans are the reason the "toxic" fans exsist in wow and push people away.

There are toxic fans of nearly every single thing in this game, to say that somehow Sylvanas fans are worse or somehow the core of the problem is the pathetic scapegoating of a non-existent problem because a fictional character triggered them so hard that they think making stuff up to make their irrational hatred seem rational.

Saying "I hate sylvanas so much it ruins my life" sounds insane.

Saying "Sylvanas ruins peoples lives irl because toxic" is still insane, but sounds a little less insane.

That's why mudmug is so great. You could never find a toxic mudmug fan.

[Mehrunes]

And now playing the victim. Those fans are labelled toxic because they're hostile, rude, twist words, endlessly berate anyone who doesn't agree with them, use "clever" phrasing to avoid directly insulting people while dancing on the edge of doing so, and drag every discussion down to shitshow, because as you famously put it, you're "here to win arguments", not discuss the story in good faith. It doesn't matter that it's about Sylvanas.

Because this whole topic isn't doing just that about how mean those Sylvanas fans are for committing the grave sin of calling out the blatant peddling of fanfiction about her... If only they let it go! Life would be so beautiful then. Alas, this is a lore forum, not a fanfiction one. As such, calling out the blatant peddling of fanfiction (that continues to be peddled even long after sources directly disproving it had been quoted) on a forum where it does not belong is neither hostile, rude, twisting words or endlessly berating (plus, again, kinda getting all pot and kettle here).

Also, as has been noted many, many times, the reason why every discussion is dragged down to a Sylvanas-related shitshow isn't really her fans, because they are very rarely the ones that prove @Super Dickmann's law right and derail the topic to her. Almost always it's the "healthy playerbase" that does that by bringing Sylvanas up no matter how unrelated she is to a given topic.

And as I famously put it "I'm here to win arguments" and not discuss the story in good faith? What? Please, you're the one who constantly accuses me of that whenever you decide it's time for yet another public spectacle of putting me on ignore because that somehow validates your posts. The most I ever said on the topic is that the two aren't mutually exclusive, which only renders your accusation (further) moot, as not only is it false, but it relies on a false dichotomy. And as I repeatedly point out in those cases, peddling blatant fanfiction isn't "discussing the story in good faith" in any way, shape or form in the first place.

The problem is the behavior, not the topic. That's what's being dodged.

Again, Friendly explicitly addressed the specific behavior in question. There was no dodge that you accused him of in that post.

How are they toxic ? Perhaps in some "masculine" way ?

In the "Sylvanas fans proved me wrong with sources and ruined my favorite pastime activity of spreading headcanon about her" way.

[Feanoro]

As such, calling out the blatant peddling of fanfiction (that continues to be peddled even long after sources directly disproving it had been quoted) on a forum where it does not belong is neither hostile, rude, twisting words or endlessly berating (plus, again, kinda getting all pot and kettle here with the "playing the victim" thing).

Kind of you to remind me that "moving goalposts" and "trying to reframe" should have been in the list. Were you in fact interested in disproving so called fanfiction (including apparently the perspectives that Blizzard deliberately writes for Alliance, but it's only canon if you like it, right?), you could easily do so in a pleasant or at least neutral tone. You do neither.

And as I famously put it "I'm here to win arguments" and not discuss the story in good faith? What?

Ah, the old "I have no memory of that, Your Honor".

Please, you're the one who constantly accuses me of that whenever you decide it's time for yet another public spectacle of putting me on ignore because that somehow validates your posts.

Usually after you resort to your flamebaiting, like calling me a racist.

The most I ever said on the topic is that the two aren't mutually exclusive

Oh so you DO remember saying it.

as not only is it false

And now it's false again. C'mon, keep the story straight.

peddling blatant fanfiction isn't "discussing the story in good faith" in any way, shape or form in the first place.

Disagreeing with you or presenting the canon Alliance perspectives is not "peddling blatant fanfiction". The fact that you think there's some sort of agenda or conspiracy to smear a fictional character is astounding.

[Aucald]

Move on from or drop this argument as it's actively derailing the thread and preventing further discussion.

[Powerogue]

Move on from or drop this argument as it's actively derailing the thread and preventing further discussion.

Okey doke. Post moved to a PM instead. TL;DR Mehrunes is wrong and Sylvanas absolutely is out to crush hope. Sylvanas loyalists, like the loyalist Elsie in Before The Storm, can expect an arrow in the chest for their troubles.

30-some quotes from the entire chapter outlining it in excruciating detail to fight meticulousness with meticulousness was admittedly massive overkill.

[Mehrunes]

Kind of you to remind me that "moving goalposts" and "trying to reframe" should have been in the list. Were you in fact interested in disproving so called fanfiction (including apparently the perspectives that Blizzard deliberately writes for Alliance, but it's only canon if you like it, right?), you could easily do so in a pleasant or at least neutral tone. You do neither.

Ironically, you're the one moving goalposts here (and not only here). Also, peddling blatant (not "so called") fanfiction where it doesn't belong isn't pleasant to begin with, so I'm confused as to why are you expecting pleasant tone from others. There really are sites dedicated to such things, there's no need to spread headcanon here.

Ah, the old "I have no memory of that, Your Honor".

It's hard to have any memory of things that never happened, yes. Kinda how memory works.

Usually after you resort to your flamebaiting, like calling me a racist.

Which is not what I said. Which is out there for everyone to see in the relevant thread.

Oh so you DO remember saying it.

No? Saying that winning arguments isn't mutually exclusive with discussing lore in good faith is not even remotely the same thing as saying one is here only to win arguments and not discuss the lore in good faith. If anything, had the desire to win arguments been expressed there (which it was not), it'd be the opposite of that. Because of what false dichotomy means.

And now it's false again. C'mon, keep the story straight.

The story is straight. See above paragraph.

Disagreeing with you or presenting the canon Alliance perspectives is not "peddling blatant fanfiction". The fact that you think there's some sort of agenda or conspiracy to smear a fictional character is astounding.

I'm not exactly sure what canon Alliance perspective you're even referring to here specifically (then again you rarely ever quote any sources anyway). But I most certainly can think of plenty cases of using Alliance quests to disprove your arguments.

Move on from or drop this argument as it's actively derailing the thread and preventing further discussion.

As was the case in the previous thread, you posted this while I was typing. My mistake, will do.

[Kumorii]

Okey doke. Post moved to a PM instead. TL;DR Mehrunes is wrong and Sylvanas absolutely is out to crush hope. Sylvanas loyalists, like the loyalist Elsie in Before The Storm, can expect an arrow in the chest for their troubles.

30-some quotes from the entire chapter outlining it in excruciating detail to fight meticulousness with meticulousness was admittedly massive overkill.

I can guarantee nothing will happen to loyalists.

[Feanoro]

Um, yes, being dragged home as a prisoner and then executed in the dungeons is in fact mutually exclusive with being brought home safe.
[Yes I'm aware that's inference of what she'd have done to Saurfang based off of Baine's fate, but it's the most likely scenario.]

I maintain my previous snark that the best ending to the War Campaign would be the loyalist PC being arrested on trumped up charges and being stuffed in the exact same room Baine was, awaiting execution, before Team Traitor springs them.

Oh man, that would be HILARIOUS.

I could easily see it too, along the lines of "You know too much about the plan!"

[Rathwirt]

Nothing will happen. You'll just be told to "Go along with it for now." and that "It was what the Warchief had planned all along." like every step along the way.

[Powerogue]

Sylvanas is still a dick.

Pretty much. I love Devil's Advocate, it's why I get into these sorts of arguments, but 100% of them, always boil down to "If Sylvanas hadn't been a dick, things would have gone better."

Even giving her absolutely the most benefit of the doubt and taking her perception as god at every possible opportunity, she's paranoid and literally creating the problems she is dealing with. Had she been more trusting and willing to listen to the protests of her fellow Horde leaders, there would be no rebellion.

But if you're a true to the end loyalist, like Nathanos still manages to be, or what Sylvanas does to her own actions, you'll always rationalize things in her favor. To such a point where it seems like, given total freedom of choice, at least one loyalist here, upon being shot in the back, would turn around and offer up their front as well.

But I shouldn't put words in people's mouths. Especially since that sounds like a really great side-topic:

Calling all players who are doing the loyalist route, or just want to RP as if they had done so, given absolute freedom, what would you -want- the fate of your player character to be? Bonus points for different versions depending on which side wins out by the end.

[Maljinwo]

Sylvanas' ones? Perhaps not. But we've seen bloodstones (well, a bloodstone) as recently as Legion. Which means that Blizzard hasn't completely forgotten about those. So perhaps one day we will get a proper explanation of what they really are.

Bloodstones are pretty common.
But Sylvanas' stones should be important right now. But... we know they aren't going to appear

[MatthiasVonTzeskagrad]

Pretty much. I love Devil's Advocate, it's why I get into these sorts of arguments, but 100% of them, always boil down to "If Sylvanas hadn't been a dick, things would have gone better."

Even giving her absolutely the most benefit of the doubt and taking her perception as god at every possible opportunity, she's paranoid and literally creating the problems she is dealing with. Had she been more trusting and willing to listen to the protests of her fellow Horde leaders, there would be no rebellion.

But if you're a true to the end loyalist, like Nathanos still manages to be, or what Sylvanas does to her own actions, you'll always rationalize things in her favor. To such a point where it seems like, given total freedom of choice, at least one loyalist here, upon being shot in the back, would turn around and offer up their front as well.

But I shouldn't put words in people's mouths. Especially since that sounds like a really great side-topic:

Calling all players who are doing the loyalist route, or just want to RP as if they had done so, given absolute freedom, what would you -want- the fate of your player character to be? Bonus points for different versions depending on which side wins out by the end.

Depends on the ending. I have loyal characters who would just stick to themselves and go along with what is more beneficial in the moment, others who would retreat to Shadowlands if the situation happened, or maybe fight to death. And then I have those who are so crazy they would rather become Harbingers of the Old Gods than letting Alliance win the day, even if they have to ditch Sylvanas in the process. I even have one who'd made a cult based on the many achievements she made in her unlife, the ones who enabled him to regain his conscience, get his revenge on the scourge, etc.

[Zulkhan]

Holy hell, look at how much greatness I was missing.

[omeomorfismo]

I miss those forsaken days of fighting for free will.
Fighting for Freedoms like true Americans I mean forsaken *salutes with tears* .

lol?
they are presented as a totalitarian state since day1 °-°
probably the only american thing they have is the vice of carpet bombing enemies....

[Combatbutler]

Holy hell, look at how much greatness I was missing.

Much popcorn was had to be certain.

OT

I doubt blizz will do anything to them to be honest, maybe acknowledging them in a quest text interaction in the next xpack or something like that, or reset their reputation for the major rebel cities.

[Ujimasa Hojo]

The loyalists sellout for better loot and gear.

[Count Zero]

Crap, this reminds me that I need to get my DK up to cap so I can do the chain and make other choices than I did on my main ...

[Wilfire]

Why are people so adamant on Sylvanas being evil? Everything in game points to her getting a redemption arc. Loyalists will get redeemed by proxy. Don't sweat it.

[Bling]

I'm game for all the Sylvanas worshippers to have to walk Cersi's GoT walk of shame!

Dirty little undead backstabbers.