horde race analysis

[Powerogue]

Aesthetically maybe, culturally absolutely not. The BEs whole redemption arc from being fel corrupted had "horde" written all over it. The NEs were more of a neutral faction and, while affiliated with the alliance, have mostly protected their own. That generally overlaps with alliance values, in contrast to the Horde's "conquer conquer conquer" mindset they usually have.

[sam86]

if NE were Horde, Alliance could never touch Kalimdor lol

they had theramore back then, which should been a massive city
it pissed me how theramore was 'minor' in compare to stormwind, yeah lore-wise stormwind is bigger but we come from wc3 where Theramore was big deal, we did many missions there

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They were NEVER described as very savage, nor very brutal. Ever in official lore.

that's literally the first ever description about them in wc3 when Grom face them for first time, i really wonder how confident u were, if u ignored the first ever existence of them in warcraft history
wow turning them to highschool cheerleaders is another story

[Aresk]

This seems less a Horde Race analysis and more an opinion piece on Night Elves. I agree that the Night Elves, per WC3, seemed to fit the orc/tauren/troll culture closer. But the Alliance was closer to the Horde than the Night Elves were at the time; Jaina risked her forces against the Burning Legion to save Grom, whereas the Night Elves only used the other two to take the brunt of the Legion assault at Hyjal; they never had any altruistic motives for working with them. By that alone, it makes more sense for Theramore to be a Horde faction than the night elves.

While the tauren and the night elves had a long standing friendship, the tauren themselves stayed distant from the rest of the Horde after the third war, only willing to assist the Horde with their troubles after Rexxar saved Baine. Given the orcs' actions in Ashenvale and given that the tauren only joined due to the Horde saving their people from the centaur and then the son of their chief from the harpies, I don't see why they'd try to convince the night elves to join. Honestly it would make more sense for the kal'dorei to be a separate faction and throw in their allies (faerie dragons, dryads, keepers, giants) than putting them with either faction, but Blizzard decided to go with just two factions, and Alliance made more mechanical sense (giving Alliance some Kalimdor representation) than Horde.

[Kyphael]

Where’s this coming from?

Blizzard has mentioned it in interviews early scrapped plans like these, as well as how Necromancers were supposed to be in Classic, Ogres were originally planned for Burning Crusade, and I believe even Goblins were also meant to be a neutral playable race in Classic.

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Problem is, night Elves would have never get along with the rest of the Horde. Orcs killed their demigod, trolls are trolls, goblins don't give a crap about anything, and everyone knows they get perfectly along with undead. And as tauren are not isolated from other Horde races, like Forsaken and blood Elves were, and neither are the night Elves, they can't try and replicate the Forsaken effect.

Well goblins already don't care about anything but money anyway. Undead hate all living. Trolls are jerks anyway. Orcs killing their Demi-God is an issue yes, but for game play reason they could have had Tyrande forgive them. Thrall after all is like the type of being that everyone likes because he's so charismatic, I'm sure he could have convinced Tyrande with help from Cairne and it wouldn't have been any crazier than Blood Elves joining the Horde as it was back then given how trolls REALLY hate blood elves and orcs actually fought blood elves in the second war.

[ravenmoon]

they had theramore back then, which should been a massive city
it pissed me how theramore was 'minor' in compare to stormwind, yeah lore-wise stormwind is bigger but we come from wc3 where Theramore was big deal, we did many missions there

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that's literally the first ever description about them in wc3 when Grom face them for first time, i really wonder how confident u were, if u ignored the first ever existence of them in warcraft history
wow turning them to highschool cheerleaders is another story

The official desrcription of the night elves is given here:
http://classic.battle.net/war3/nightelf/


Grom mentions the SENTINELS he meets fight savagely, he doesn't describe the entire night elf race as savage, nor does the lore or the game show them as savage. Especially when the manual has already defined them, and you don't see them fighting like very savage brutal beasts throughout the campaign.. lets get it in perspective sam.

They were dangerous, threatening in Wc3, when it came to fighting, but their lore, their history, their character both in that game and War of the ancients as well as classic did not show them as a "very savage" or "very brutal" race , not even close.

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This seems less a Horde Race analysis and more an opinion piece on Night Elves. I agree that the Night Elves, per WC3, seemed to fit the orc/tauren/troll culture closer.

I never saw the night elves fitting the orc/tauren or troll culture at all in WC3... I mean in WC3, Tauren being druids caused quite a stir, now people use that as some sort of indication night elves are closer to the horde.. especially since both troll races can be druids.


But they ignore all the night elves pre-sundering lore, forget the developments post WC3, and ignore the lore of the ngiht elves which is a high civilization race forced to live in a zero technology (in their situation - zero magic state) to fulfil their task. Then ignore this changes.. the night elves in classic return to civilziaiton, and while druids keep to the wilds, they are only part of the race, preists return to the city and the new temple, as do civilians start building villages, towns and cities, highborne return too..demon hunters too, and none of these fit the horde either. The druids weren't even horde feeling till post wow... when the horde were given druids, and by BFA had taken over the class, and the associations.

[gurutikka]

This seems less a Horde Race analysis and more an opinion piece on Night Elves. I agree that the Night Elves, per WC3, seemed to fit the orc/tauren/troll culture closer. But the Alliance was closer to the Horde than the Night Elves were at the time; Jaina risked her forces against the Burning Legion to save Grom, whereas the Night Elves only used the other two to take the brunt of the Legion assault at Hyjal; they never had any altruistic motives for working with them. By that alone, it makes more sense for Theramore to be a Horde faction than the night elves.

While the tauren and the night elves had a long standing friendship, the tauren themselves stayed distant from the rest of the Horde after the third war, only willing to assist the Horde with their troubles after Rexxar saved Baine. Given the orcs' actions in Ashenvale and given that the tauren only joined due to the Horde saving their people from the centaur and then the son of their chief from the harpies, I don't see why they'd try to convince the night elves to join. Honestly it would make more sense for the kal'dorei to be a separate faction and throw in their allies (faerie dragons, dryads, keepers, giants) than putting them with either faction, but Blizzard decided to go with just two factions, and Alliance made more mechanical sense (giving Alliance some Kalimdor representation) than Horde.

What would have happened if NE were Horde? Kalimdor would be greatly Horde dominant?

[MatthiasVonTzeskagrad]

Blizzard has mentioned it in interviews early scrapped plans like these, as well as how Necromancers were supposed to be in Classic, Ogres were originally planned for Burning Crusade, and I believe even Goblins were also meant to be a neutral playable race in Classic.

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Well goblins already don't care about anything but money anyway. Undead hate all living. Trolls are jerks anyway. Orcs killing their Demi-God is an issue yes, but for game play reason they could have had Tyrande forgive them. Thrall after all is like the type of being that everyone likes because he's so charismatic, I'm sure he could have convinced Tyrande with help from Cairne and it wouldn't have been any crazier than Blood Elves joining the Horde as it was back then given how trolls REALLY hate blood elves and orcs actually fought blood elves in the second war.

That's why Sylvanas lobbied hard for belves, who still had an entire ocean between them and the horderaces who could cause them trouble, while sharing same space with their actual friends.

I mean, Thrall and Cairne could possibly try hard to set nelves in, but at that point they would have had more success as the savage and somewhat edgy section of the alliance, whose members are hated by many nelves out of petty racism rather than because of long and justified conflicts and heresies (like killing gods or being zombies). We did not have those nelves, but the alternative is neither better nor harder to fuck up.

[Feanoro]

Another elf veiled thread, lore forum now elf posts now with a bit of other things, jesus

You over exaggerate this. Terribly sorry this isn't yet another "I hate Baine. Me too!" thread, or "Saurfang is a traitor, discuss how you agre." thread. Blame Blizzard for not building up other races worth a damn.

[Syegfryed]

You over exaggerate this.

am i? half is straight up elf thread and the other are veiled, its like 1-2 day

Terribly sorry this isn't yet another "I hate Baine. Me too!" thread, or "Saurfang is a traitor, discuss how you agre." thread. Blame Blizzard for not building up other races worth a damn.

blizz is giving a damn for elves too, but people don't stop though, what kick me in the balls is just the same subject.

[Aresk]

I never saw the night elves fitting the orc/tauren or troll culture at all in WC3... I mean in WC3, Tauren being druids caused quite a stir, now people use that as some sort of indication night elves are closer to the horde.. especially since both troll races can be druids.

But they ignore all the night elves pre-sundering lore, forget the developments post WC3, and ignore the lore of the ngiht elves which is a high civilization race forced to live in a zero technology (in their situation - zero magic state) to fulfil their task. Then ignore this changes.. the night elves in classic return to civilziaiton, and while druids keep to the wilds, they are only part of the race, preists return to the city and the new temple, as do civilians start building villages, towns and cities, highborne return too..demon hunters too, and none of these fit the horde either. The druids weren't even horde feeling till post wow... when the horde were given druids, and by BFA had taken over the class, and the associations.

If you examine the Horde under Thrall and the tauren and (to a lesser extent) the darkspear trolls, there's a large appreciation for the earth and spirits. The night elves have a similar appreciation for nature in the game (hence the wisp not harming trees when harvesting lumber), so I see some similarities there. They're obviously not the same, but they all seem to have some reverence for nature/spirits.

The Alliance does not show this at all. They seem very focused on technology; they have gyrocopters and riflemen and steam engines. They are more concerned with their laws and politics. There are a lot of parallels between this and the highborne society that the night elves gave up (the lore was expanded after the game, but I'm looking just at WC3 as a standalone here, since we're talking about events that occurred before Classic). Faith is the thing that seems to link the Alliance and Night Elves the most, with devotion to Elune mirroring somewhat the Church and the Light.

Architecturally, the Alliance buildings are made from cut stone and people protected by metal armor. The night elves use ancients and wood structures and natural stone, and their armor tends to be light or else natural hides of the druid shapes and allies. The Horde uses a lot of wood with hide stretched over it, and they also are lightly armored. While still being very visually distinct from the Horde, there's an emphasis on natural materials than mined and worked materials.

Particularly post Cataclysm (with the reintroduction of the highborne in Night Elf society), there are a lot fewer differences between the Night Elves and the Alliance. They seem to have moved rather far from their emphasis on harmony with nature as their greatest priority, embracing the magical arts and the prominence of their old society rather than the scattered forest villages that they had in WC3 (granted most of those were sacked during the War of Thorns).

[gurutikka]

The official desrcription of the night elves is given here:
http://classic.battle.net/war3/nightelf/


Grom mentions the SENTINELS he meets fight savagely, he doesn't describe the entire night elf race as savage, nor does the lore or the game show them as savage. Especially when the manual has already defined them, and you don't see them fighting like very savage brutal beasts throughout the campaign.. lets get it in perspective sam.

They were dangerous, threatening in Wc3, when it came to fighting, but their lore, their history, their character both in that game and War of the ancients as well as classic did not show them as a "very savage" or "very brutal" race , not even close.

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I never saw the night elves fitting the orc/tauren or troll culture at all in WC3... I mean in WC3, Tauren being druids caused quite a stir, now people use that as some sort of indication night elves are closer to the horde.. especially since both troll races can be druids.


But they ignore all the night elves pre-sundering lore, forget the developments post WC3, and ignore the lore of the ngiht elves which is a high civilization race forced to live in a zero technology (in their situation - zero magic state) to fulfil their task. Then ignore this changes.. the night elves in classic return to civilziaiton, and while druids keep to the wilds, they are only part of the race, preists return to the city and the new temple, as do civilians start building villages, towns and cities, highborne return too..demon hunters too, and none of these fit the horde either. The druids weren't even horde feeling till post wow... when the horde were given druids, and by BFA had taken over the class, and the associations.

i'm curious to know if the NE went horde, would alliance be able to have a foothold in kalimdor?

[Friendlyimmolation]

Op once again is the same guy that asks the same question again and again until he gets the answer he wants, stop feeding him.

[Directionalk9]

Isn’t the answer when Night Elves and Horde first it was super hostile, the Orcs were decimating their forest and killed Cenarius. When the Night Elves met the refugees from EK it was less so?

[Alex86el]

This does sound awesome. I tried finding more info but Kalidar was the only one I could confirm. Can you like.....find that old concept board?

https://imgur.com/a/8WeGnEt#Npeq3Pm

Here, it's a RAR with some pictures/photos. (~5mb)

No viruses, lol.


You should also follow Kevin Jordan on Twitch.
One of the three game designers (Vanilla-TBC-WotLK)

Not at all entertaining, bad player, admitedly horde biased (duh) even tho he plays a gnome in Beta.
But seems very good hearted and ethical, unlike today's developers/designers.

He often shares stuff about the early WoW development.
That's where i learned a lot fo things.

Mod Edit: Replaced the download link with a link to an Imgur gallery containing the files, to quell any virus or malware fears.

[Aresk]

i'm curious to know if the NE went horde, would alliance be able to have a foothold in kalimdor?

Thereamore would still have been there in classic, and they could have had some other outposts similar to Grom'gol in EK for Horde.

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Isn’t the answer when Night Elves and Horde first it was super hostile, the Orcs were decimating their forest and killed Cenarius. When the Night Elves met the refugees from EK it was less so?

We know the Horde's conflict since the Horde campaign took place in Kalimdor; the human campaign ended before Kalimdor, and the night elf campaign doesn't show any conflict with either faction, focusing on the Scourge/Legion fights. Tyrande refers to both factions as invaders. I think we can safely say the Alliance didn't kill Cenarius, but as far as other conflicts go, it's not clear if there were skirmishes or no (though given that the Alliance could harvest lumber from Dustwallow, there was likely a lot less conflict over lumber too).

[Ielenia]

i'm curious to know if the NE went horde, would alliance be able to have a foothold in kalimdor?

Theramore already existed back in Warcraft 3.

What you have to ask yourself is: "would the Horde be able to have a foothold in Eastern Kingdoms?" since I assume that if, in vanilla, if NE went Horde, then the Forsaken would have gone Alliance.

[ravenmoon]

i'm curious to know if the NE went horde, would alliance be able to have a foothold in kalimdor?

hmm.. I wonder too, I think originally, the horde was Orgrimmar and the alliance was Theramore ..the night elves were the night elves... but during wow development a lot changed..
For starrters they decided every race would have their own starting area, I remember reading somewhere that the Eastern Kingdoms were meant to be a higher levelling zone, all of it where you would see the after effects of the scourge and other things.


I think it changed during development, and the night elves and forsaken who may have been their own factions were added to the horde and alliance, then everything became about the horde and alliance, rather than the original races having disputes ..

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If you examine the Horde under Thrall and the tauren and (to a lesser extent) the darkspear trolls, there's a large appreciation for the earth and spirits. The night elves have a similar appreciation for nature in the game (hence the wisp not harming trees when harvesting lumber), so I see some similarities there. They're obviously not the same, but they all seem to have some reverence for nature/spirits.

that's true. And such reverence is never really shown in humans, and it is assumed in Thalassians (though not without good cause).. you're right there.

The Alliance does not show this at all. They seem very focused on technology; they have gyrocopters and riflemen and steam engines. They are more concerned with their laws and politics. There are a lot of parallels between this and the highborne society that the night elves gave up (the lore was expanded after the game, but I'm looking just at WC3 as a standalone here, since we're talking about events that occurred before Classic). Faith is the thing that seems to link the Alliance and Night Elves the most, with devotion to Elune mirroring somewhat the Church and the Light.

That's true, the night elven civilization that was destroyed (not given up - there's a difference and it's an important one) was the zenith point on what the alliance like civilzations were based on, whereas the kaldorei they meet are in a very different more at one with nature zen phase than they are. The alliance technology is basically the mirror of the night elven arcane magic, as Elune is the mirror of the church of the light.

Architecturally, the Alliance buildings are made from cut stone and people protected by metal armor. The night elves use ancients and wood structures and natural stone, and their armor tends to be light or else natural hides of the druid shapes and allies. The Horde uses a lot of wood with hide stretched over it, and they also are lightly armored. While still being very visually distinct from the Horde, there's an emphasis on natural materials than mined and worked materials.

WotA trilogy describes he magcialy introweaving of arcane and nature magic to create buildings that had nature in them as well, like the stones you see with vines in Darnassus. Although the night elves have a very wide variety .. we must not forget the nighte lves are not just druids and forest sentinel/hunters - you got priestess and highborne and moonguard as well as demon hunters. But yeah, their stuff is quite differnet it's magically wrought mostly, either from wood (long vigil lot) or stone and arcane (throughout their history in both eras.

Particularly post Cataclysm (with the reintroduction of the highborne in Night Elf society), there are a lot fewer differences between the Night Elves and the Alliance. They seem to have moved rather far from their emphasis on harmony with nature as their greatest priority, embracing the magical arts and the prominence of their old society rather than the scattered forest villages that they had in WC3 (granted most of those were sacked during the War of Thorns).

I don't think it it he highborne [QUOTE=Aresk;51371897]While the observation is correct, it's not the introduction fo the highborne that makes this so.. think of it tis way, the highborne are a very prominent part of night elf lore, that has been there fromt hes tart.. it they are 100% night elven, as is the night elven arcane way - this just hasn't been properly fleshed out in game till Suramar in 7.0

It's not surprising there willb e similarities to humans who are high elven influenced, and we know high elves are a derivative of the night elven highborne led arcane culture - i.e. a unique version of it.. so similarities exist, just like similarities exist between high elven farstrider forest rangers and night elf hunters - I mean they are elves, one is just a day light version of the other, with slightly different eempahsis, colour schemes and archicture. The night elves are supposed to be the far bigger more encompassing group, as they are the original elves.. therefore would have the elven elements like magic wielding (arcane, nature and fel) come out more strongly, and less humanised, as well as elven characateristics like perfection, flawlessly living according to their philosophy etc.

However, the night elven humanisation is nothing to do with highborne, (you know this, because the hgihborne themselves play little to no role with the humans, the night elves aren't shown at all in latter cata, and only make cameos till they are focused again in legion.

The night elven humanisation is more blizzard just showing night elves as human npc substitutes, not bringing out their character as night elves when they are included in the alliance, to the extent they even dress them in stormwind alliance colours, show off none of their nature, Elune nor arcane magical abilities. Sure you see druids in the park, but they might as well be humans fond of nature for all their depictions. It has nothing to do with night elven highborne being available.

Night elves have 4 distinct branches that each have a lot of time in the lore...their arcane lore, druidic lore, priest lore and demon hunter lore. if you think about it carefully, you'd see nearly all have about roughly the same amount of exposure and lore. iIt's just visually the nature one stands out the most, not because it is the most different, but it is where the original classic emphasis focused on. Classic didn't show you their pre-sundering cities or highborne groups - those played a role later, classic didn't even show you the demon hunters or much activity from the priestesses. The druidic was most prominent, and sentinels next, the rest were peripheral, but ify ou add the novels, you have WotA having a lot of arcane, priestly, demon hunting and druid lore, books like Illidan and TBC are heavily demon hunter lore. You get more DH stuff in a few quests in Cata, but a lot more in legion.. a lot of arcane lore in 1.1 dire maul, then in cata with Wolfheart and the highborne return, you see mages turn up in MoP and WoD as night elves , but in 7.0 you see a lot more in the nightborne, Suramar, Azsuna, the Moonguard etc. The priestesses and sentinel order you see in WC3, you see in lore on Tyrande, saw in 7.2 Cathedral and Tomb, and off course temples with all the night elf ruins and inhabited places.

the humanisation is because blizzard just are ignoring them and lazily substituting them as human npc

[Villager720]

Blizzard has mentioned it in interviews early scrapped plans like these, as well as how Necromancers were supposed to be in Classic, Ogres were originally planned for Burning Crusade, and I believe even Goblins were also meant to be a neutral playable race in Classic.

So I searched around the internet for a bit and couldn’t find any official mentions of night elves being planned for the Horde.
I also find what you’re saying confusing due to the fact that high elves had already shifted to blood elves in WC3 well before vanilla launch.

[Frontenac]

Go to Ashenvale and you'll see why the Night Elves joined the Alliance. It's called Warsong Lumber Camp. Peoples do not become allies only because they share the same philosophical view on the world.

Plus, storywise, it gave a good reason for the conflict between Horde and Alliance to start anew after Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne. One Allied race in the Horde dominated Kalimdor, and one Horde race in the Alliance dominated Eastern Kingdoms.

[TheImperios]

On the oldest concept art maps, night elves are mapped as Horde. Just FYI

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Aesthetically maybe, culturally absolutely not. The BEs whole redemption arc from being fel corrupted had "horde" written all over it. The NEs were more of a neutral faction and, while affiliated with the alliance, have mostly protected their own. That generally overlaps with alliance values, in contrast to the Horde's "conquer conquer conquer" mindset they usually have.

Keep in mind that the aggressive Horde only emerged in WotLK and Cata with Garrosh. You can say the Horde was always meant to be violent, but you can say that now, back then all pointed towards the Horde becoming a more peaceful state.