Why does gear still affect competitive pvp?

[Cosmic Janitor]

You can also see what happened with the whole "warmode" thing. I find it funny that most people just want to over gear their character and crush everything- but no one wants to admit that. Everyone wants to pretend they are not about gear- they are about skill (oh and don't forget)- having a good community. Meanwhile- most of the players actions show the exact opposite of that. That's fine- btw, just be honest about it.

I think Blizzard should just stop listening to what the players say and post- and just watch what they do........

The same was true for most PvP server populations, most of them just gravitate towards one faction dominating the other, effectively rendering world PvP a mute topic, even though they still would like to pretend that they are oh so "hardcore, unlikel those wusses on PvE servers". I don't think they neccesarily should stop listening to player arguments, but they should be able to discern which ones are actually true and which ones just serve as thinnly veiled attempts to save face.

[TheVaryag]

Couldnt agree more. They should have removed the templates from Legion from regular BGs and kept them in rated pvp. Never understood the hate for templates in Legion. I liked em and thought they long overdue.

If people want a power fantasy just leave it in battlegrounds; does anyone else think its the dumbest f4cking idea in existence having item level affect competitive PvP?

Gear shouldn't affect any form of PvP, but blizzard think that making gear important will keep you playing the game to farm.

Wait what... what are ANY of you talking about?

PvP Gear being separate to PvE has worked fine for the last 11 years up until Legion came around which fucked It up WITH TEMPLATES which are really bad.

They take away the customization, enchanting of gear or stat tweeking. I'm sorry, but In an RPG I rather have control over my stats then telling me "Next patch warriors get 674 sternght reduction to make them not OP" and hell don't get me started on taking a quarter of the GOOD ABILITIES THAT ARE USEFUL IN PVE and FORCE THEM INTO A PVP TALENT SYSTEM.

I doubt any of you have played the game since even Wrath to even understand how badly you are encouraging to keep running a system that Is just as bad as Titanforging RNG bullship. Stop encouraging them to do this, everyone. How can you support them on Templates when their excuse for removing previous vendors + currency system was that It's too hard for players to find and figure out which pieces to buy... HOW DUMB DO THEY THINK PLAYERS ARE?

All that Is just PR talk to force their systems upon us that they think are good for us, but really don't see the big picture. They're so out of touch It's not funny. I'm dead seriously gonna say going to Final Fantasy 14 and being a damn Dark Knight Cat boi Is gonna be a better experience than anything WoW has to offer for the last 3 expansions.

[therealstegblob]

Couldnt agree more. They should have removed the templates from Legion from regular BGs and kept them in rated pvp. Never understood the hate for templates in Legion. I liked em and thought they long overdue.

Because babies couldn't go into BGs and stomp lower geared people. These same toolbags complain when low geared people end up on their teams, though.

To answer the thread's general question: It's because WoW does not have competitive PVP.

[Samuraijake]

You're right... i'd love to see naked 3v3s... no weapons... no gear... just loin cloth and 6 ppl

[VTerpsichore]

Because PvP is about skill, not about killing scripted mobs.

lol skill? duels maybe, pvp is about who has the better comp or bigger zerg. there is not much skill needed. even arena is about comp over skill.

[Rotted]

If people want a power fantasy just leave it in battlegrounds; does anyone else think its the dumbest f4cking idea in existence having item level affect competitive PvP?

No.

Because every pvper that says this has no issue going into a pug dungeon or raid fully kitted in pvp gear.

You can't have your cake and eat it

[horbindr]

gear compensates for skill, and vice versa. i think thats perfectly fine in a rpg, it's not supposed to be a drop in drop out game. if you have both gear and skill you will stil be on top.

[Hittion]

gear compensates for skill, and vice versa. i think thats perfectly fine in a rpg, it's not supposed to be a drop in drop out game. if you have both gear and skill you will stil be on top.

Right but that doesn't really pan out for pvp. I think it is more to do with blizzards now extreme reliance on gear to keep players invested these days as to why it doesn't change. I think it started because was and still is a side game to the game rather then a focus.

[nRes]

Right but that doesn't really pan out for pvp. I think it is more to do with blizzards now extreme reliance on gear to keep players invested these days as to why it doesn't change. I think it started because was and still is a side game to the game rather then a focus.

I don't agree. The best gear has always been the incentive since day 1 of rated pvp and it's actually them trying to move away from gear dependencies that is one of the big reasons pvp has turned into garbate. Why would people mainly focus on PVP if some new guy who started 2 weeks ago is within 10% of people who spent months on their pvp toons? There needs to be a sense of progression and there was, but the more Blizzard leveled the playing field, the less incentive there is for people to participate in pvp.

We don't PVP to struggle in every game, we play to get top gear and crush everyone who doesn't. At least that's how it was and that's what worked for the longest time. Not anymore though...

[Jibjub]

I have been asking this for years. There seems to be a large amount of people who actually LIKE having gear matter (i.e., they like being able to destroy someone with worse gear because that's totally fun). It's insane.

GW2 handles this aspect of PvP about 87 light-years better. I wish we had a lobby that auto-leveled any character to 80, dropdowns for stat allocation (and trinkets). World PvP can be about gear but not any instanced PvP.

[sgschult]

I have been asking this for years. There seems to be a large amount of people who actually LIKE having gear matter (i.e., they like being able to destroy someone with worse gear because that's totally fun). It's insane.

What's the point of gear if it doesn't make your character stronger? Go play a fighting game if you want everyone to be on an equal playing field. There's gear in the game and it should matter. If gear doesn't matter what's the point of having it in the game? This is an RPG with PvP in it. If you want to compete at the highest level then play the game like an rpg and gear up. It's really easy to gear up so it's not like there is something holding people back from it.

[Dolus]

It's an RPG, gear should matter. If you don't like it, then this isn't the game for you. Perhaps, go play Super Smash Bros. or MK 11.

[therealstegblob]

It's an RPG, gear should matter. If you don't like it, then this isn't the game for you. Perhaps, go play Super Smash Bros. or MK 11.

Fake argument. If you're so threatened by other people's outlooks in a game that can change based on player feedback and desire, then maybe you should play another game?

[BeepBoo]

People talking about skill in WoW PvP lol.

Yea my crit % skill beat your dodge % skill. Oh wait nvm my proc % skill just learned how to play. Own3d.

I can't imagine having such an external locus of control. Must be sad to have fate doing everything for you with no hope of escape.

[Turismon]

Sorry, but what made PVP actually fun back in the first 3 xpacs was the fact that you could gear up as you pvp and actually felt stronger from it. It gave you the drive to keep going, and the rewards paid off. Nothing better than starting out and owning people that had gear sometimes because you were good and they were not.

That said, if you are going to have competetion then sure, gear shouldn't matter, but there should be competition only servers for this crap or play a fighting game or something, but don't change all pvp to this model. The RPG, gear makes you better approach was king, and we've lost that in pvp and hence why I can't play it anymore. BC, with resilience etc. was the best time in pvp in this game since it kept, raid no lifers from killing everyone, but still required you to grind bg's for the good stuff, and arena to get the best gear and each piece you could feel. Good times, I hope we get back in classic.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't agree. The best gear has always been the incentive since day 1 of rated pvp and it's actually them trying to move away from gear dependencies that is one of the big reasons pvp has turned into garbate. Why would people mainly focus on PVP if some new guy who started 2 weeks ago is within 10% of people who spent months on their pvp toons? There needs to be a sense of progression and there was, but the more Blizzard leveled the playing field, the less incentive there is for people to participate in pvp.

We don't PVP to struggle in every game, we play to get top gear and crush everyone who doesn't. At least that's how it was and that's what worked for the longest time. Not anymore though...

Spot on, couldn't agree more, the progression and the reward of that gear you get from progression was felt and made you keep wanting to do it.

[GreenJesus]

Maybe they should slop together some sort of Battle Royale type of thing where everyone starts at different spots around a map with the same cloth gear (mages, warriors, everyone) and there is gear littered around the map. I don't pvp or play Fortnite or any of that other stuff, but that kinda looks like what goes on there. Throw in some of the random buffs and such from Island Expeditions to make everyone less reliant on healers. Like I said, its slopped together, but it might be fun.

Yeh sounds like a game where blood DK wins every game. Remember the free for all arena in WoD?

[horbindr]

Right but that doesn't really pan out for pvp. I think it is more to do with blizzards now extreme reliance on gear to keep players invested these days as to why it doesn't change. I think it started because was and still is a side game to the game rather then a focus.

pans out great in pvp. i don't care enough about pvp to want to L2P. so my good gear is the only thing that gives me a chance when i want some reward from pvp.

and thats kinda what i expect: i expect my progress in certain game areas to carry over and have some meaning in other parts of the game.

now when i play games like starcraft of counterstrike, i do expect a even playing field there, cause thats what those game are all about.

but in wow, due to the nature of the game, i really don't expect or want a even playing field.

[Jibjub]

What's the point of gear if it doesn't make your character stronger? Go play a fighting game if you want everyone to be on an equal playing field. There's gear in the game and it should matter. If gear doesn't matter what's the point of having it in the game? This is an RPG with PvP in it. If you want to compete at the highest level then play the game like an rpg and gear up. It's really easy to gear up so it's not like there is something holding people back from it.

See what I mean! People like this still exist.

Think about it like this ... let's say WoW were real ... if you were going to "duel" someone in a fantasy world like that, as a competition, do you think the rules would allow for you to wear SUPER AWESOME RING OF DEATH? Or would you try to make it as fair as possible?

This is about competitive PvP (i.e., instanced, objective-based PvP) and not World PvP. The only thing that matters is a fair fight. Otherwise, it's just DUMB.

Here's another way to look at it. Would you watch a boxing match if one guy had 48 ounce gloves and the other guy and brass knuckles? How about baseball where one team was a bunch of middle schoolers with wooden bats and the other team was big leaguers with metal bats? Better yet... would you ever enjoy PLAYING/PARTICIPATING in any of these scenarios, as either the undergeared or the overgeared?

GW2 is an RPG and yet they do this and I don't think anyone has died yet ....

[Drench]

Gear should matter 100% This is a rpg and I want to progress. I love getting blown up by the geared boy. Because it motivates me to farm and play. Then I get to do that. I get a reward for my investment. Meanwhile skill still plays a big deal the more you close the gap. Two 2400 players with bad gear will play to 2k+ with trash gear. It's a rpg stop ruining our game with your I want it know mentality. Go play guild wars where gear doesn't matter and it's not fun. Try league where there is no rpg element and every game is even and based on how well you play right now. Sub numbers and pvp activity doesn't lie. Wotlk had waaaaaay more then legion or now. You think you do but you don't. There's a reason dark souls is fun. If they made it so the bosses were cake and scaled down if you had bad gear it would be a boring game.

[Alydael]

The same was true for most PvP server populations, most of them just gravitate towards one faction dominating the other, effectively rendering world PvP a mute topic, even though they still would like to pretend that they are oh so "hardcore, unlikel those wusses on PvE servers". I don't think they neccesarily should stop listening to player arguments, but they should be able to discern which ones are actually true and which ones just serve as thinnly veiled attempts to save face.

I agree they should listen, but look first to the actions players take in game when they log in. That will be the purest way to know what the player base wants. I don't know what kind of data they collect on this game, but it should be pretty easy to figure out what people like to do and want in this game. It is somewhat baffling to me that Blizz can't seem to figure it out some times........ Take the removal of the artifacts/legiondaries. It was obviously going to be a total disaster because you can't give people free bread then take it away (and ask money for it). I don't see how it took them to right before 8.2 to really figure out how bad that would be received.

I wonder if you compared the dev times for certain features to the actual player engagement rate/ completion rate of that same feature, I wonder what features would really deliver some "bang for the buck" vs which features would almost be a waste of dev time.