would horde players have accepted a more sincere rebellion

[Varodoc]

I've seen the opposite in the same places, but it's why I don't trust forums or even in game chat for overall player perspective. Even something that is considered a popular sentiment like "LFR is horrible and should be removed" doesn't reflect the majority of players who use it and never touch regular raiding. The most solid guess I have about what most players think about the story is that they don't think about it and they only pay attention to who/what was cooler in the end. Most players don't even read the books or know they even exist.

Tbh, Sylvanas and Baine aren't any more or less hated than characters like Tyrande, Anduin, Garrosh, etc. People will be loud and gather where they can be louder. But you are right that all places will have their own form of circle jerk unique to them.

True, true, it's a shame that most people don't have a clue there are even books outside the game. I've seen so many people who think Sylvanas burned the tree just because a dying elf made her mad, yikes

[Rozz]

True, true, it's a shame that most people don't have a clue there are even books outside the game. I've seen so many people who think Sylvanas burned the tree just because a dying elf made her mad, yikes

Yep, although I can't blame them when the material is spread out and not advertised consistently.

[Nadiru]

The rebellion arc is too disjointed from the Old Gods stuff to really make any sense. We needed another full patch of Old Gods being foreshadowed and capital cities getting murked to really sell the rebellion as anything other than Baine & Saurfang's Hissy Fit. It would've been nice if a roided out Tyrande dropped a moon or turned Orgrimmar into a giant tree or some shit. At least then Baine might have a point about saving Thunder Bluff. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure the following scenario occurs whenever the Alliance needs to be included in the story: The writer shrugs, and groans, "Okaaaaaaay, I'll write some *ugh* Alliance plot..."

[Jastall]

Alliance Horde dislike each other. Alliance has the power to destroy the Horde. Thus Alliance are a threat.

To assume a country bigger than you will be tempted to kick your ass is not cynicism.

That's textbook realism.

European nations did not war against Napoleon because he controlled Europe. They waged war cause he might do that.
America didn't go to war against Germany because it was a threat. They went to war cause it might be one in the future.

Waiting for a threat to actually become one is a moronic way to conduct foreign policy.

Because if Warcraft was the real world, the Alliance would already have destroyed the Horde back in Mists when they had a perfect chance to do so. That's why Sylvanas's reasoning rings hollow; as players we know it's bullshit, the Alliance forgave the Horde before and they are currently loading Forgiveness.exe for another go. It's impossible to take such a storytelling device seriously as far as I'm concerned.

Plus, if it was a real world, the Horde would be totally unable to go to war, let alone wage a global war effort, when it suffered a rebellion and multiple conflicts, including a massive demonic invasion, within a couple years. I'm somewhat weary of bringing real-world logistics and geopolitics in a setting where both these things are routinely ignored when it suits the writers, dating back to the earliest days of the franchise.

And besides even if we do bring in geopolitics, AvH is more like the US against the USSR, given that both sides have powerful WMDs. And they didn't fight each other because they knew escalation would lead to devastating consequences. But this is a story where everyone's an over the top retard and Blizzard has to escalate shit for the ''OMG faction warzzz'' factor so instead of more realistic proxy conflicts that allows you to push that angle of storytelling while keeping the stakes manageable (ala vanilla PvP or Stormheim), you have Sylvanas torching the tree with ICBM catapults because some dying elf gave her lip or the Alliance teleporting a massive army to the gates of the Undercity but forgetting that the Blight exists.

[Mehrunes]

Is that what the Horde has been reduced to? Supporting a Warchief as long as he/she spites the Alliance and doing anything even dooming Azeroth just to avoid joining Anduin? Personally I believe that is only a vocal minority that is reduced to just this forum. I refuse to believe that the Horde has been fallen so low.

What does that have to do with the post you quoted? Or even what that post quoted in turn?

True, true, it's a shame that most people don't have a clue there are even books outside the game. I've seen so many people who think Sylvanas burned the tree just because a dying elf made her mad, yikes

It's not like being aware of the books helps in that regard. There's plenty of people on this forum making the same argument about Sylvanas even though they are perfectly aware of A Good War and what happened in it.

[Shampro]

What does that have to do with the post you quoted? Or even what that post quoted in turn?




It's not like being aware of the books helps in that regard. There's plenty of people on this forum making the same argument about Sylvanas even though they are perfectly aware of A Good War and what happened in it.

People being dishonest to push an agenda?!??! On MMO Champion?! Lies and slander.

[Mehrunes]

People being dishonest to push an agenda?!??! On MMO Champion?! Lies and slander.

I know it sounds shocking. I couldn't believe it at first myself.

[Rafoel]

Yeah, there is no logic to this expansion's story.

No matter how you think about it, Sylvanas should be confronted about her actions long ago. Then we have 3 options:

1) She says: "Okay if you are so unhappy then you can try to rule yourself". And whole rebellion falls on its face because they don't have yet a single person who is actually competent in ruling. Regardless of internal situation, war either continues or not - if it doesn't, Alliance is absolutely pissed, and if it does, then it is a legitimate war where one side can't be demonized, and Blizzard is too incompetent to deal with such story. They always need a simple situation of "bad guy is doing bad things, go stop him".

2) She kills them on the spot. Because they have no chance on winning in the "honorable" combat. And then story can end only with complete destruction of either faction. Or a perpetual war. Which Blizzard doesn't want.

3) They somehow kill her and survive to tell the tale. And suddenly you have no story for the whole expansion. What's more, you just pissed of half of the Horde. Good job.

Summarizing, Sylvanas can't be confronted, because all possible results of such confrontation are undesirable. Still, as Blizzard wants the rebellion to continue, they need to find bullshit excuses as to why the rebels hide in the shadows and don't actually do anything. Despite surviving against all odds, that is.

[Feanoro]

Yep, although I can't blame them when the material is spread out and not advertised consistently.

Bingo. It's ridiculous how far you have to go to get the canon. In game should be the main story they want to tell, because that's the medium that their entire playerbase sees. Books should be supplementary. Add in that you have to go scour twitter, and that game, books, twitter, and so on often contradict each other and their messaging is a damn mess.

[Combatbutler]

Bingo. It's ridiculous how far you have to go to get the canon. In game should be the main story they want to tell, because that's the medium that their entire playerbase sees. Books should be supplementary. Add in that you have to go scour twitter, and that game, books, twitter, and so on often contradict each other and their messaging is a damn mess.

Lets be honest the game is a very shitty medium to tell the story. The main problem is consistency, Blizz is constantly all over the place. There would be a lot less problems around, if they actually managed their own material properly.

[Tripzzz]

Except he doesn't explicitly refer to Derek as Forsaken there. For all you know he's talking about Sylvanas and the outcome of her plan about Derek. And had you actually bothered reading what you replied to instead of trying to get a shitty gotcha, even if Derek was Forsaken, which he's not because he never joined (unless you can point out when he did do so), that still wouldn't be Sylvanas violating free will because what she did (well, was trying to do) to Derek still wasn't what the Lich King did to the Forsaken.




Newsflash: what the Lich King did to Bolvar is explicitly not what he did to the rest of the Scourge, Forsaken included, which is what Forsaken's issue about free will is about. Way to shoot yourself in the foot as usual.




Aside from your logic here making no sense because you're making miles-long leaps, what does that have to do with anything? Besides, Horde has presence on Argus.

Lmao. He's talking about Derek. The quest talks about how it took an army to kill Rastakhan and how they will only need a single Forsaken( Derek) to kill their leaders (Jaina and Kathrine). Mehrunes pretzel logic won't work.

News flash, the point was Slyvanus is a hypocrite who is following the Lich King's footsteps.

What horde presence? The two elves on the Vindicaar who did nothing? The logic was you keep crying about Genn attacking during legion apocalypse, but without the Alliance, the Horde heroes in the class hall would still be stuck on Azeroth while the Pantheon was being converted. Point being the Horde is useless and attacking Slyvanus during Stormheim wasn't a detriment to defeating the Legion.

[Varodoc]

Bingo. It's ridiculous how far you have to go to get the canon. In game should be the main story they want to tell, because that's the medium that their entire playerbase sees. Books should be supplementary. Add in that you have to go scour twitter, and that game, books, twitter, and so on often contradict each other and their messaging is a damn mess.

It's actually funny how much the character of Sylvanas changes between the game and the novels. In the game she is 100% pure evil, while after reading A Good War I can kind of see her point of view (though I utterly disagree with her extreme methods and despise her nonetheless).

[Soon-TM]

Bingo. It's ridiculous how far you have to go to get the canon. In game should be the main story they want to tell, because that's the medium that their entire playerbase sees. Books should be supplementary. Add in that you have to go scour twitter, and that game, books, twitter, and so on often contradict each other and their messaging is a damn mess.

Add to that the fact that there are several languages which books aren't available in, so their (presumably reduced) reach is even smaller.

[Rozz]

You can tell the story and expand the lore by just adding a lot of written word in the game. Blizzard does it to some extent; just walk around Zuldazar and see all the lore in interactible objects. Things like the shanties also add lore, they help build the character of the Kul Tiran nation. What you'd need is much, much more. I mean let's be honest, can we compare the "Steamy Romance Novel" series on what they do for the setting to e.g. "The Lusty Argonian Maid"? Yes the intent is the same but the former are just humor with no lore, the latter help give character to the society they were written in. Can you imagine having a series of Sermons by Alonsus Faol to collect all over the Eastern Kingdoms that help us understand the Church of the Light like Vivec's Sermons explain the metaphysics of his world?
It's all about making the effort. Stop writing poor quality novels, start writing small pieces of lore and shoving them everywhere inside the game. Add a library interface so we can collect them all and read them at our leisure. Just by making them a collectible WoW players will go out to grab every last one of them and maybe a few will even read them.

I was sorely surprised they never did this in MoP when they had an entire faction dedicated to lore. I hate having books and tomes stored in my bank.

[Soon-TM]

I loved all those books scattered throughout the world in Vanilla, especially in main cities (SW and Undercity come to mind) and in dungeons. Admittedly, the latter wouldn't work anymore with the GOGOGOGO mentality so prevalent these days, but those books could become relatively common drops instead.

While we're at it, add a library zone in racial capitals and otherwise major cities (really, why isn't e.g. Dalaran filled to the brim with readable stuff?) where you can store your books and reread them at your convenience.

[allawyn]

The base problem was turning the Horde into Villains in the first place. The really put them down a path that was never going to work.

But yes, having the Horde turn to our more noble enemies and seek redemption just poured salt into the wounds.

[Soon-TM]

I mean they were OK and back then when I knew little about the lore they were fun to read. But from my current perspective they are just bad. They just don't read like books, they read like excerpts from a Warcraft Campaign Setting book. And that means they have no character.

They came with their limitations, but it was better than nothing. They were replaced with very pretty and fashionable cinematics, which are far more expensive but tell a lot less story than those "excerpts".

[Soon-TM]

I have to ask, why do you have excerpt in quotations?

Because you called them so, which I strongly disagree with.

[iosdeveloper]

It's a pity Horde had two hitlers in a row, what happened to a cozy big family Horde from WC3?
Alliance should be having these troubles since dwarves and elfs aren't fond of each other and humans will eat each other alive if shit gets real.

The main message of warcraft for me was: Humans are the evil guys, Orcs are the good guys. Don't be like humans.

[Soon-TM]

It's a pity Horde had two hitlers in a row, what happened to a cozy big family Horde from WC3?
Alliance should be having these troubles since dwarves and elfs aren't fond of each other and humans will eat each other alive if shit gets real.

The main message of warcraft for me was: Humans are the evil guys, Orcs are the good guys. Don't be like humans.

It's just that someone in Blizzard back in Cata thought that having two factions with both good and bad things in each was too hard to write or too complex for marketing issues, who knows - and they turned the Horde into a Saturday morning cartoon villain, a real parody of their WC3/early WoW self. The opposite happened to the Alliance, which was progressively whitewashed and bleached until it became the bland, self-righteous, homogeneous and squeaky clean blob of today.

As for the bolded part, it would be essentially the same situation of today but with inverted roles. I wouldn't like that either tbh.