9.0 General Discussion

[Aeluron Lightsong]

As I said before, us fighting Argus which is essentially a titan equiv to a premature birth. He's so weak comparatively to Sargeras himself its believable we can *fight* him. Sargeras on the other hand couldn't be fought. "BUT THE TITANS CAN EMPOWER US." They weren't in a position to do so, perhaps if they retained their original bodies it might of been possible but it would still be a bit absurd).

Sargeras is the big villain pushing Legion's narrative via Kil'Jaeden and every demon invading. Its fine to not fight him at least his pure raw power.

Argus wasn't even half as interesting or well-developed as Gul'dan or Kil'jaeden and yet he was the final boss of Legion.

Actually he was, he ended up being from the planet the Draenei were born on, their homeworld and basically a sentient generator for demons to regenerate like *Snaps fingers* that. Tortured for so long and abused for Sargeras's plans. The bad part of it all is how little time we have for that to sink in.

Nathanos likely dying first raid is not a good sign of Sylvanas's life expectancy IMO. It's one thing to him to die in the Torghast raid as a sub boss while she runs away, but if he ACTUALLY dies in the first raid... which is incredibly likely...

Maybe, it depends how it plays out, I still wonder if Nathanos is gonna die loyal to the Banshee Queen or any regrets or something like that. Either way, I'm sure Horde players want to shut his face once and for all.

[Sondrelk]

You're right - Sargeras was the "big presence" behind Argus and that added a lot of validity to the raid, but... Was Sargeras ever really that huge of a lore figure? I mean, we knew that he created the Burning Legion, including Archimonde and Kil'jaeden, but for most of Warcraft's history we never saw or interacted with him directly. He was more of a legend or a looming presence then an actually well set-up in-game character.

My point here is - if they start setting up the Jailer as the driving force behind a lot of events in the recent history (that people care about, like the Burning of Teldrassil) and pretty much the Warcraft "devil" (which by itself is a very significant role), that should create enough of a mythos to make people excited to fight the Jailer.

We the players didnt interract with Sargeras much, but we sure knew who he was. And the demons under him in the Burning Legion even more so. With the Jailer we don't have that. Blizzard can try their damndest to link him to past events, but that still won't make him more than a character we learned about just now.

As I mentioned before. We can build up to him, and we can have him as the final boss for that matter. But without assistance he cannot carry the entire expansion. So either Sylvanas has to come along for the ride for a while or he has to ressurect more lore characters to use as liutenants that the players can actually have an interest in.

The only other possiblity is that the expansion goes full Psycho on us and has both Sylvanas AND the Jailer gone by the end of the second raid, leaving the final boss a mystery.

[Polybius]

I hope they flesh out the similarities/differences between Anima the Mogu use, the Anima that supposedly serves as Titan blood, and the mortal soul energy Anima we see in the Shadowlands. Supposedly, they are different energies. But using the same name seems a little too on the nose - they could have called it literally anything else. If Anima we see in Throne of Thunder and Anima seen in

After all, the Mogu were masters of Necromancy and using Anima to empower Golems - that is exactly what the Venthyr do to create the Stoneborn Gargoyles, and what the Kyrians use to power their constructs. I don't really see how its any different at all from what is going on with the Blood Elves Anima Golems, and the Draenei/Zandalari's use of constructs for Soul storage.

There's a chart somewhere with the different colors of anima seen throughout the Shadowlands.

[Sarethion]

The bad part of it all is how little time we have for that to sink in.

I'm not saying Argus didn't have an interesting backstory - he did, but he wasn't a well set-up character. We know very little about him, we barely interact with him, he doesn't appear anywhere other than in 7.3. Like, he might be interesting, but comparing him to characters like Gul'dan or Kil'jaeden who were present in the lore for years and who we had multiple run-ins with, isn't fair. Could be a different story if we got more time with him, though.

[Sondrelk]

I'm not saying Argus didn't have an interesting backstory - he did, but he wasn't a well set-up character. We know very little about him, we barely interact with him, he doesn't appear anywhere other than in 7.3. Like, he might be interesting, but comparing him to characters like Gul'dan or Kil'jaeden who were present in the lore for years and who we had multiple run-ins with, isn't fair. Could be a different story if we got more time with him, though.

He is a cool setpiece fight though, and seeing as he was never the character we actually focused on defeating, that someone being Sargeras, we could still feel the weight and gravity of the bossfight, leaving players satisfied in the end, despite the final boss being pretty unrepresentative of the expansion in a vacuum.

[huth]

Maybe, it depends how it plays out, I still wonder if Nathanos is gonna die loyal to the Banshee Queen or any regrets or something like that. Either way, I'm sure Horde players want to shut his face once and for all.

Did we have any actual evidence he will be a fight anywhere? Or is he just tagged as "boss" in his NPC data?

[Sarethion]

We can build up to him, and we can have him as the final boss for that matter. But without assistance he cannot carry the entire expansion.

Well, we can agree on this one - the Jailer needs someone to play the role of a familiar villain during the time needed to set him up and seeing as how 9.0 seems to be mostly focused around Covenants and the Anima draught, I don't think there's going to be enough about the Jailer there to comfortably kill off Sylvanas in 9.1, so I'm of the opinion that it should happen in 9.2. That should be enough time to build up the Jailer.

The only other possiblity is that the expansion goes full Psycho on us and has both Sylvanas AND the Jailer gone by the end of the second raid, leaving the final boss a mystery.

That's my biggest concern about the Shadowlands story - I mean, we all saw how much they threw into BfA and I really wouldn't want them to do the same for Shadowlands. I'd prefer a fairly coherent, slower and simpler story that focuses just on the Shadowlands stuff, without throwing any other big themes into it.

[Raetary]

Plaguefall looks sick.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I don't think Blizzard is going to have multiple storylines in Shadowlands, if there are any its in relation to the Shadowlands story cause how the Jailer fits into how death and the afterlikes work in WoW will help establish the future.

[Sondrelk]

I don't think Blizzard is going to have multiple storylines in Shadowlands, if there are any its in relation to the Shadowlands story cause how the Jailer fits into how death and the afterlikes work in WoW will help establish the future.

There will definitely be several storylines. there always is. The bigger question is whether they will have more than one large questline that will go unresolved.

Based on what i have seen so far the expansion will definitely have a sideplot of the tyranny of Light, which will likely be explored through the Naaru in Revandreth and the Kyrians versus Forsworn.

[Archmage Xaxxas]

Yeah, it's pretty neat. But the question is, are you able to walk on the upside down stairs? As in, gravity will reverse if you do?

If ONLY!
De Other Side has strong mojo either way. What I presume is Hakkar's bossfight room is downright scary, and the final platform with the mind-bending view of a Troll afterlife is simply amazing to look at.

I love how it sheds light on what the afterworld is like for someone like Bwonsamdi, and Mueh'zala it seems. Them Trolls ain't joking when they say "Me got the good stuff mon"

Although I'm curious why the Manastorms were chosen as bosses >.>

[Raetary]

Yeah, it's pretty neat. But the question is, are you able to walk on the upside down stairs? As in, gravity will reverse if you do?

However this is something created by Bwonsamdi, who's been around for so long he's probably a bit crazy lol

The stairs are just background.

In fact, the dungeon has a pretty standard Layout.

[Maxilian]

Plaguefall looks sick.

Looks like an upgraded Plaguelands if Naxxramas were destroyed on top of it and every fluid of Naxxramas poured down into Plaguelands....

Aka... It looks quite cool

[Raetary]

Looks like an upgraded Plaguelands if Naxxramas were destroyed on top of it and every fluid of Naxxramas poured down into Plaguelands....

Aka... It looks quite cool

No amount of Naxxramas Ooze would be enough to create this literal Ocean of liquid plague.

[Maxilian]

No amount of Naxxramas Ooze would be enough to create this literal Ocean of liquid plague.

Are you sure about it? have you seen the quantity of ooze Naxxramas have? i mean... in most places that Naxxramas have that Ooze is in an area that you don't need to really see, but there's a freaking lot of it.

And that dungeon look like it have splashes of ooze but not ocean of liquids as you say, as they don't cover the player character, so IMHO is more like it started to fall all around the area and created a lot of small pools that you would step in but not fall into.

[Fawkess]

Really loving the look of the dungeons so far, Wasn't really that big a fan of the BFA dungeons aside from a few (Freehold, Atal, Waycrest) so hoping that they prove to be better game play wise

[huth]

Are you sure about it? have you seen the quantity of ooze Naxxramas have? i mean... in most places that Naxxramas have that Ooze is in an area that you don't need to really see, but there's a freaking lot of it.

And that dungeon look like it have splashes of ooze but not ocean of liquids as you say, as they don't cover the player character, so IMHO is more like it started to fall all around the area and created a lot of small pools that you would step in but not fall into.

Splashes? There's an entire lake. Naxxramas only has a few channels of the stuff for the most part, you could probably bury the entire thing in the amount in Plaguefall.

[LemonDemonGirl]

The stairs are just background.

In fact, the dungeon has a pretty standard Layout.

Aww that's kind of disappointing. It would be cool if De Other Side was made into a small subzone that you could explore uninstanced.

I guess it could be a World Quest hub where you'd defend Bwonsamdi's followers against Hakkar's/Mueh'Zala's followers

(Well maybe it is, this is still just Alpha, where you can fly around like Minecraft Creative Mode)

[Makabreska]

Plaguefall looks sick.

Eh, it looks very much like Eastern Plaguelands. Not a fan, and if this is how Maldraxxus looks in general, then it will be my least favourite zone.

The stairs are just background. In fact, the dungeon has a pretty standard Layout.

This one looks slightly better, with those interiors and the first zone. All that twisted, upside down outdoors look interesting, but also pretty generic at the same time (similar to Emerald Nightmare). Plus the colour palette in second half is just damn depressing. So it seems that 3/8 dungeons will look pretty meh for me (Theater of Pain being one of them).

[Cosmic Janitor]

Well the scourge zone looks like scourge zone. Not really surprised here, though I still can't get over the fact what a weird choice for a covenant it is. Conceptually it feels out of place and just desperately shoehorned in because this is supposed to be a death themed expansion and "Remember the Scourge?! Remember the Lich King?! Remember the Plaguelands?!". I hope people will get to test this zone soon, I just can't wait how they try to tie this narratively into the rest, especially if this is supposed to be more than the afterlife for the cult of the damned and Forsaken.