1. #57521
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Yet that is exactly what the playerbase would demand they do. It isn't just 2 abilities like you tell yourself.
    What is this nebulous "the playerbase?" Which parts of it are demanding this? Is it the majority? What is the reason they're demanding it? Is it because class playstyles feel too critical to have them be absent? If something is demanded, does it mean you have to do it? I'm not "telling myself" anything - I'm stating a fact that remains a fact if it were to stay that way. You're using a slippery slope fallacy here by inferring that doing one thing means you need to do it every single time. Just because a subset of people would demand otherwise doesn't mean they enter into the equation, and you're talking about hypothetical outcomes that don't really mean anything.

    The fact of the matter is, people used the same argument going from Legion into BFA as to why certain things shouldn't be kept. Enough bad feedback meant that class design as it goes into SL not only deprunes irrelevant things, like Frostbolt being given to Fire, but also in a lot of cases adds abilities and talents that should've been baseline in the first place. But logic like yours was the only reason it didn't happen sooner.

    And how are they to decide which ones to keep? You're not actually providing a solution, you're just dumping a bucket of paint on the problem.

    So then you acknowledge it's a problem, at least. Progress.

    I pretty much already said which ones you keep - if something feels critical to a specialization to the point where it's either a mandatory talent or the spec feels extremely slow or half-baked without it, that's when you want to make certain concessions about abilities to add. When the pruning happened, it was removing abilities that were seen as extraneous to a core rotation. Since then, core rotations are actually pretty solid, but the introduction of new abilities or modifications to old abilities made certain playstyles feel so much more complete that the absence of those same "temporary" systems or abilities is very jarring, and sometimes their replacements are outright inferior (Azerite traits vs. Artifact traits).

    It's a case by case scenario of what you keep. But if SL does actually succeed in making those same Covenant abilities worthwhile and engaging, there's nothing wrong with advocating a retention of some mechanics without it turning into a sadistic choice. "You can keep X, but only on one specialization, and it's replacing Y in this row." That's not forward progress.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shakana View Post
    If covenants fails by being restricted, abilities will be accessible to everyone

    Says Ion Hazzikostas on a Interview: https://www.pcgamer.com/wow-covenant...ffer-pcgamertw
    And it'll happen. Inevitably. And the same people who cling to this imaginary reality where they won't horribly fuck up and demand it stay exclusive will eat it right up when it does.

    "It's not a choice if you do that! ...even if there are like 30 other Covenant specific things that'll stay exclusive. But also you shouldn't pick a Covenant based on their ability, you min-maxer, you should do it based on which one you like! ...but which one you like is meaningless if they don't make the ability exclusive!" So much god damn circular logic.

  2. #57522
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    And it'll happen. Inevitably.
    Oh I suppose you can see the future.
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  3. #57523
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Oh I suppose you can see the future.
    No, merely the past

  4. #57524
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Oh I suppose you can see the future.
    Based on the way things tend to go every single expansion, everyone might as well be omniscient by this point if they were paying attention. Echoes, for example, were the writing on the wall as far back as Infinite Stars getting tweaked by ilevel.

  5. #57525
    All the Mail covenant armor sets are so ugly. What the heck man. The plate sets are amazing especially the necrolord, the mail sets all have mismatched shoulders and and look awkward AF. the night fae is plain, venthry idk whats going on there and necro has weird shoulders, The kyrian though is alright though i would wear that. but the rest come on why can't i look symetrical?

  6. #57526
    The Insane Chickat's Avatar
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    Now that most of the content is out on beta we are in for a long boring 4 months before launch. Buckle in boys. Its going to be a long night.

  7. #57527
    Over 9000! HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    We didn't kill the Lich King he killed us and Tiron saved us from being turned into Undead uber soldiers by Arthas. Deathwing died not by us(Thrall and the dragonsoul or was it demon soul).

    Heck Garrosh didn't even die...and yeah Archimonde died so.. thats nice I guess. Oh and we didn't kill Gul'dan...someone stole that kill *Cough*
    ...Oh boy...

    "We didn't kill the Lich King he killed us and Tiron saved us from being turned into Undead uber soldiers by Arthas." This, I will agree with. However, since the Lich King, we've grown a fuck ton and have obtained a lot of power that should, currently, make the Lich King look like complete and utter fodder at this rate.

    "Deathwing died not by us(Thrall and the dragonsoul or was it demon soul)" We still took down his plates and fucked with the remains of his collapsing body till the Aspects and Thrall ended him. Now, Deathwing shouldn't even be a threat tbh.

    Garrosh didn't die, but he still lost to us. Archimonde died, so yeah it counts. Also, what happened Garrosh also applies to Gul'dan. He didn't die by our hand, yes, but we still fucked him up at full power to the point where the Legion dipped on him.

  8. #57528
    Quote Originally Posted by shammypie View Post
    All the Mail covenant armor sets are so ugly. What the heck man. The plate sets are amazing especially the necrolord, the mail sets all have mismatched shoulders and and look awkward AF. the night fae is plain, venthry idk whats going on there and necro has weird shoulders, The kyrian though is alright though i would wear that. but the rest come on why can't i look symetrical?
    I personally love the Night Fae mail, thought it was a huge jump over the previous iteration based more on the Gorm. Kyrian mail is pretty good too. Agreed on the Venthyr and Necro ones, though.

    For me, all the Maw sets are so good that it barely matters, though. Need to finish those. Still itching to see the completed leather one.

  9. #57529
    Over 9000! HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    Now that most of the content is out on beta we are in for a long boring 4 months before launch. Buckle in boys. Its going to be a long night.
    I'll take 4 months of whatever the fuck BFA is anymore to that whole SoO shit we had before WoD.

  10. #57530
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    I'll take 4 months of whatever the fuck BFA is anymore to that whole SoO shit we had before WoD.
    I think just the Beta of SL is keeping people hooked. More so then BFA did(Sorry BFA you did an ok job not a good or great job, an ok job).
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  11. #57531
    Over 9000! HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    I think just the Beta of SL is keeping people hooked. More so then BFA did(Sorry BFA you did an ok job not a good or great job, an ok job).
    Tbh here, I wasn't hyped for BFA and knew the final boss from a mile away. SL is giving me Legion and WoTLK hype vibes. I like it!

  12. #57532
    Quote Originally Posted by shammypie View Post
    All the Mail covenant armor sets are so ugly. What the heck man. The plate sets are amazing especially the necrolord, the mail sets all have mismatched shoulders and and look awkward AF. the night fae is plain, venthry idk whats going on there and necro has weird shoulders, The kyrian though is alright though i would wear that. but the rest come on why can't i look symetrical?
    I mean, you've got like...the entire life of WOW up until now of like 94% symmetrical. I welcome more asymmetrical added to the game. Isn't there a Xmog 1 shoulder at a time being added anyway?

  13. #57533
    I still can't believe that night fae cloth set is actually done.

    Even the robe version of the night fae leather set looks better, and that one covers half the 3D assets.

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  14. #57534
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    I still can't believe that night fae cloth set is actually done.

    Even the robe version of the night fae leather set looks better, and that one covers half the 3D assets.
    I can't believe they actually spent a 3D armor piece on sandal bottoms. That barely anyone will ever see or realize isn't 2D..

    One day.. one day, Blizzard will go all out on robes, and that'll be the day I'll be able to tolerate more than 10% of cloth mogs.

  15. #57535
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    I need to ask.

    Has anybody asked Blizzard whether they ever intend to implement names with apostrophes (for Trolls, Draenei, etc.) and surnames into the game yet? If even just on RP servers exclusively?
    I was thinking of how annoying the naming thing was last night when I got N.U.T.Z. (mechanical squirrel hunter pet) on a mechagnome hunter I was going to level for the heritage armor. It keeps its name on tame but you can't use periods and stuff when you want to name a pet yourself. I was planning on making the starter mechano wolf's name B.O.L.T.Z. to go with the squirrel but you can't so I can either rename the squirrel to match a more normal named starter pet or wait until 110-120ish to find a mechanical pet with a more robotic name and even then none are really named like him they all mostly use numbers and shit.
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2020-07-10 at 10:32 PM.

  16. #57536
    Apparently hearing that Shadowlands will be pretty brutal for Mythic raiders with so much busywork and re-farming required. I'm no where near a top player (barely Cutting Edge) but this has me worried a lot that even scrubs like me will be affected.

    Preach did a video on it and he's positively depressed about it.

  17. #57537
    Quote Originally Posted by SamTheBeardedMan View Post
    Most of the vocal community will tell you it is covenant abilities.
    So far... most classes and talents trees are things to worry about tbh.

    It's on the mechanical side and not tuning, we are in for another borrowed power expansion where we keep filling holes with temporary system.
    I think that is a bad disign in general, because some classes just flatout dont work without soulbinds/covenant. But the bandaids are showing atm and peolple on us forums noticed. It's a shitstorm as always.


    pssst shadow priests
    Last edited by Alanar; 2020-07-10 at 10:42 PM.

  18. #57538
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    So far... most classes and talents trees are things to worry about tbh.

    It's on the mechanical side and not tuning, we are in for another borrowed power expansion where we keep filling holes with temporary system.
    I think that is a bad disign in general, because some classes just flatout dont work without soulbinds/covenant. But the bandaids are showing atm and peolple on us forums noticed. It's a shitstorm as always.


    pssst shadow priests
    Its not really a shitstorm... outside of Shadow priests things aren't that dire, it would be much more noticeable and right now it isn't "shitstorm"
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  19. #57539
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Its not really a shitstorm... outside of Shadow priests things aren't that dire, it would be much more noticeable and right now it isn't "shitstorm"
    Most classes have static cookie cutter builds and there is almost no room to switch or else the class just doesn't feel good or work at all.
    That right there is a huge problem already and the lack of communication on that front is not sitting well with me when this is the time for big changes.

    Shadow is the extreme case agree. But this just just an example. Shadow doesn't work when you dont pick the right build and on top of that almost everyone (looking at mmo/wowhead/offical forums) doesn't like Voidform.. we recently got Dp back, but boy are people upset with it, because of how it works and what blizzards vision is of how it should play or feel. Dk's and ret have some problems going on and suffer from same builds as well. Another example would be how they gave frost 2hand back while not thinking about the same problem we had with cata when duel wield will always be better because it allows for TWO runes. Zero effort to add or hear the feedback that people provide the moment people were able to test it. I have to say people have been providing good and enough feedback on the offical forums but .. things are pretty silent and people feel ignored, I mean it's not like we are a week in the alpha. You could say whats new? but this is the general vibe I get on the alpha and on the forums and chats.

    Also the borrowed power arguments keep coming up and I get it.. it will start to lose value eventually, but the point is still true. Shadowlands had a chance to fix the underlaying mechanical problems so a class/spec will feel good and specially fun to play without needing to wait for the borrowed powers to start competing or even work at all. So yes.. for the people who care.. yea it's the start of a shitshow if you ask me.

    Covenant abillities is a topic I don't realy want to dive in here, it's another challenge for blizard to make that feel good for everyone.. it's hard.
    Last edited by Alanar; 2020-07-10 at 11:17 PM.

  20. #57540
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DemonDays View Post
    You keep talking about % of abilities. I don't think you can even grasp what's being discussed here.

    No one gives a fuck about percentages or amount of damage done.

    We care about flowing, functioning and fun classes AT THEIR BASE WITHOUT ANY BORROWED POWER TACKED ON. I don't think there's much discussion here to be had with you so I'll keep it short.

    This is what the current talent trees + rental powers feel like for the majority of specs. You feel like you're completing a broken husk of a class through talents and borrowed power:

    My only complaint with this great meme is all those options are useful. About half those tiers should have entirely useless and unrelated things like "10 piece chicken nugget" or "a telephone." Then it'd really capture modern talents.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh also no new Archaeology stuff in Shadowlands so we can officially declare that profession dead.
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