Would You Forgive The Horde?

[Darth-Piekus]

What you asked is exactly what we got with Dazar'alor and that didn't help anything.

The thing is that the game should not focus on the War if they don't intend for a faction to win over the other. Siege of Orgrimmar was an example where should they have followed reality the Horde would have been dismantled. Other things that gameplay trumps over lore is when they severely nerf a faction that has so many advantages it should be a stomp just to give the other a fighting chance by simply removing them from the picture or worse yet ignoring their existence. In reality Garrosh would have never been Warchief. In reality Garrosh should have lost his life in various moments of idiotic decisions that he took.In reality neutral factions who act for the protection of Azeroth should have declared war the moment a Warchief went nuts and started destroying things left and right or straight up attacking them to obtain something. Who knows what would happen if the Dragon Soul wasn't sent back to the past. The same goes for the new Warchief that is getting her hands on every weapon possible even something related to the Old Gods. In reality a faction consisting of nearly extinct races and starving would be hard to suddenly provide unlimited supplies, armies and warmachines when they can't even feed themselves. Finally in reality the various characters would be more smart to not support Sylvannas in her new war attempt not after how the last one ended. Saurfang would have decapitated her the moment she proposed a new war and definately any of them would have challenged her into a Makgora after Teldrassil and tried to fix things.

But to be back on topic what is the point if I forgive the Horde or not. Blizzard will force my character to forgive the Horde.

[Malikath]

Oh so Garithos murdering bleed elves left and right wasn't wrong? Setting fire to Camp Taurajo while there was civilians still in the village wasn't wrong?

no, because the latter never even happened if you bothered to read the quest text.
and the former wasn't even a member of the modern alliance of stormwind, he was(emphasis here) a commander in the army of the kingdom of lordaeron.
if anything since the fact of them being made-up of a majority of lordaeron's citizens i'd argue that the onus of Garithos' actions actually falls upon the current forsaken more-so then any still-living human.

same with the delegation to SW, since the context of the event places it post the defias riots i'd argue that their execution was commanded by onyxia and not any human member of the modern alliance.

[Mehrunes]

The Horde and the Alliance enter a formal truce after SoO. By in game events that truce is broken soon after in Ashran but it is not clear whether that is canon; if it is then the peace broke then and it is unclear who started it.

After that point, the most probable act of war is Genn and Rogers attacking Sylvanas' fleet. While we can obviously discuss whether that attack was warranted or not, it most definitely is an act of war. Sylvanas withdrawing her forces in the Broken Shore is not an act of war in itself; it can be the justification for a declaration of war but that's as far as it goes.
Considering that when Anduin and Sylvanas arranged the meeting in Arathi Anduin considered it a ceasefire, that suggests that the factions were actively at war at the time.

When it comes to Silithus, it seems that the events of the novel and the Horde attack on the Explorer's League happens after the in game event in Silithus in which Alliance scouts attack goblin miners. I still would not call this the start of war here though. The Seething Shore happens concurrently and the factions are at open war there.

Legally speaking, I would suggest that the factions were never at peace. There was a truce after SoO, but a truce is not peace. It is a suspension of fighting as per an agreement and usually contingent to certain actions. By all accounts the Alliance considered the Horde's conduct in the Broken Shore as reason to consider the truce broken; after all Anduin DID give Genn and Rogers leave to attack if they deemed it necessary. So practically speaking, the first act of this war remains the Wrathgate and the one who declared it was Varian.

I mean, I still don't really subscribe to your idea that factions had only a ceasefire after SoO because the Alliance ceded territory to the Horde after it and that's something that happens when signing peace and not just a truce, but that would explain why Blizzard thinks the faction war we have now is still the fourth one.

But no, Wrathgate does not "remain" the first act of war because the Alliance never considered it as such to begin with. Varian accepted Horde's explanation that the people responsible for it were traitors to the Horde. I.e. not Horde anymore. Which not only is substantiated by the reasons he gave to go to Undercity in the first place, but also by the declaration in question as well. Which means the first act of war was Varian's declaration and his subsequent attack on two of Horde's leaders.

[Ghazan Julio]

Maybe you should revisit the lore with more objectivity, instead of interpreting events or other's words as you see them over what was written. I don't think I blamed Teldrassil on one race, but I pointed out the Orcs and Forsaken since they are consistently antagonizing the Alliance the most severely. You could ask me to explain my thoughts instead of aggressively accusing me of things you assumed.

Look, a condescending moderator.

[Mehrunes]

no, because the latter never even happened if you bothered to read the quest text.
and the former wasn't even a member of the modern alliance of stormwind, he was(emphasis here) a commander in the army of the kingdom of lordaeron.
if anything since the fact of them being made-up of a majority of lordaeron's citizens i'd argue that the onus of Garithos' actions actually falls upon the current forsaken more-so then any still-living human.

same with the delegation to SW, since the context of the event places it post the defias riots i'd argue that their execution was commanded by onyxia and not any human member of the modern alliance.

That quest text says nothing about no civilians being remaining Taurajo when the firebombing began, it only said the general in charge of the attack commanded his people to leave a gap for civilians to escape through.

And the Alliance Garithos was in command of after the fall of Lordaeron is the same as we have now as per Metzen. Even that aside, Stormwind still sent aid to him. Unlike the Forsaken. So your amazing contortions to project the blame not only away from the "modern Alliance of Stormwind" but also onto the Forsaken are rather ineffective.

And Anduin outright accepted Stormwind's culpability of how the Forsaken envoys were treated and apologized Sylvanas for it.

Ehm I don't see any wrong with a delegation of zombies being killed in Stormwind or before they ever reached SW. They were zombies. Forsaken would need to make an extraordinary effort for anyone to not just kill them on sight.

Why would they need that when Death Knights were let in without a hiccup?

[Darth-Piekus]

You can always just quit. There definitely are plausible scenarios on how Blizzard can continue this story which would make me quit the game in disgust and go save talking kittens from dragons instead.

I definately not gonna bother anymore if the ending is not satisfying for me. There is always classic Warcraft. Then they might understand not to shit one faction over another.

[Feanoro]

Why would they need that when Death Knights were let in without a hiccup?

Maybe because there were several years between those events, during which understanding the various undead groups increased?

[TheRevenantHero]

no, because the latter never even happened if you bothered to read the quest text.
and the former wasn't even a member of the modern alliance of stormwind, he was(emphasis here) a commander in the army of the kingdom of lordaeron.
if anything since the fact of them being made-up of a majority of lordaeron's citizens i'd argue that the onus of Garithos' actions actually falls upon the current forsaken more-so then any still-living human.

same with the delegation to SW, since the context of the event places it post the defias riots i'd argue that their execution was commanded by onyxia and not any human member of the modern alliance.

You're right. The civilian NPCs that are dead in the in game Camp Taurajo obviously don't exist. /s

[mickybrighteyes]

if anything since the fact of them being made-up of a majority of lordaeron's citizens i'd argue that the onus of Garithos' actions actually falls upon the current forsaken more-so then any still-living human.

Considerign Garithos wound up wasting his efforts fighting the would be Forsaken... that seems like a very odd leap in thinking.


Also Camp T was hit while it's defenders were away and civilians still present. The text does say the alliance figure in command ordered his troops to allow civilians to pass through breaks in his line.... but text also has the residents in utter confusion getting killed trying to defend their homes because they don't want to get forced out into the wilderness... nevermind the fact that it's another thing that the alliance forces were shown to have less than savory elements in their ranks that disregarded their orders.

Also Trying to lay blame on onyxia for poor diplomatic relations? Could work, but the house of nobles wasn't mind controlled to make the setting possible.

- - - Updated - - -

Ehm I don't see any wrong with a delegation of zombies being killed in Stormwind or before they ever reached SW. They were zombies. Forsaken would need to make an extraordinary effort for anyone to not just kill them on sight.

The problem here is that other monstrous entities with worse backgrounds have made contact with no real issues. Draenei for example are real, true to reality, Eredar... brought in by Night Elves because they were new neighbors... Worgen are a walking a fine line between murderous rage and normal and are NOT an unknown creature (worgen were a threat to Stormwind's border territory of Duskwood), no issues bringing them into the fold... Death Knights... simply walked in the front gate. A scourge command unit that IS clearly not a simple undead.

This is in stark contrast to what seems to have happened with the forsaken.

[Feanoro]

The problem here is that other monstrous entities with worse backgrounds have made contact with no real issues. Draenei for example are real, true to reality, Eredar... brought in by Night Elves because they were new neighbors... Worgen are a walking a fine line between murderous rage and normal and are NOT an unknown creature (worgen were a threat to Stormwind's border territory of Duskwood), no issues bringing them into the fold... Death Knights... simply walked in the front gate. A scourge command unit that IS clearly not a simple undead.

This is in stark contrast to what seems to have happened with the forsaken.

Why does everyone who tries to make this argument completely fail to take the time and experience factors into account? Let alone the other factors like background of the parties involved.

All those examples happened well after the Forsaken emissaries, who came along when everyone was still reeling from the Scourge. It's not hard to picture AT THAT TIME the reaction being "Oh sweet Deeprun Tram! Now they can talk and act like they have minds! The Scourge are getting even worse!" because terrifying as a mindless killing machine is, a killing machine with a mind is worse.

Draenei are the original lorelol. Not defending the hamfisted way they were added.

Worgen are cursed Gilnean humans. EK Alliance accepted them on basis of being Gilneans, NElves felt responsible for their condition.

Death Knights were years after it was learned there could be independent undead, and they had Tirion Fordring personally vouching for them.

[Chemii]

I hope the horde just continue to do more and more bad shit to be honest, this neutral faggy crap has gone on long enough.

Although I love the idea that the Alliance think they are self righteous idiots as well, despite being deeply racist and ignorant.

[mickybrighteyes]

Why does everyone who tries to make this argument completely fail to take the time and experience factors into account? Let alone the other factors like background of the parties involved.

Time and experience between these various events is fucked up. Like Duskwood being ravaged by worgen is not an old event and still happening when the Gilneans show up. Death Knights literally come from invading living settlements and walk in the gates of the respective faction cities. Stormwind might be more experienced, but in the DK case there's still fresh blood of the living staining their gear when they show up. Draenei are just a fucked up example in general and Night Elves post third war are equally screwed for the sake of story progress.

All those examples happened well after the Forsaken emissaries, who came along when everyone was still reeling from the Scourge. It's not hard to picture AT THAT TIME the reaction being "Oh sweet Deeprun Tram! Now they can talk and act like they have minds! The Scourge are getting even worse!" because terrifying as a mindless killing machine is, a killing machine with a mind is worse.

This is a fine analogy, but do remember how the DK, scourge commanders, fresh from assaulting Light Hope's Chapel (and sacking the scarlet crusade settlements but no one cares about them anyways) show up almost immediately after failing their assault. They are LITERALLY scourge commanders walking in the front gate following their scourge attacks within DAYS if not HOURS of murdering the living.

Time and experience seems like a poor deflection when considering how DK show up vs how Forsaken do.

Worgen are cursed Gilnean humans. EK Alliance accepted them on basis of being Gilneans, NElves felt responsible for their condition.

Worgen are everything the living fear about the undead. Twisted monstrosities barely containing humanity who will kill on a whim...

Worgen are the Gilnean version while Forsaken are the Lordaeron version. The only difference is that bias for or against worgen/undeath. Worgen were let in with open arms (nevermind the rampaging worgen in the border towns clearly not related in anyway....)

Death Knights were years after it was learned there could be independent undead, and they had Tirion Fordring personally vouching for them.

I might let that lie... but when DK show up they still have blood and dirt from their last attack staining their gear. And said attack was likely within hours of their presence in the cities.

I don't like the "time and experience" argument for these and I likewise despise the "Gilneans were former allies" argument as well.

Forsaken diplomats must be like "oh I guess they just hate some twisted abominations..." as they flail their arms overhead angrily.

[Mehrunes]

Does the Alliance have extensive contact with the Eredar? From what we know, they first came in contact with the local Night Elves and they were unfailingly courteous and obviously aligned with the Light. The fact that they were being chased by fel-infused highborne is probably a big plus for the Night Elves in that. For the Worgen, it was again the Night elves who approached them, who have a very good understanding of what the worgen are and who at first communicated with them seeking to see if they could find a cure as a culmination of efforts with the Scythe of Elune that we could follow in quests all through classic; the Humans of Stormwind were actually not that welcoming to them and Varian tried to bar their entry early on. As for DKs, first, by that time the Alliance had interacted with Forsaken extensively and thus knew there were undead that were independent of the Scourge and second they came vouched by one of the greatest heroes of Azeroth.

Again when it comes to the Forsaken emissaries we have one of two scenarios:
a) Stormwind has no proper intelligence on what happened in Lordaeron beyond the refugees. In this scenario they know of the zombie apocalypse and the Scourge and would thus treat Forsaken emissaries as Scourge (keep in mind Gutterspeak as well)
b) Stormwind DOES know what happened in Lordaeron, in which case they know that the Forsaken wiped out the only remnants of the army of Lordaeron still active there.

Is being aligned with the Light supposed to matter to the Night Elves? They killed humans on sight back in WC3 and they were led by a Paladin. And please, neither of your scenarios hold much water. Certainly not enough to excuse Stormwind. First of all, Forsaken are capable of speaking in other languages as evidenced by them, you know, talking with other races. The idea that Sylvanas sent people incapable of talking in anything other than gutterspeak as her envoys is flat out ridiculous.

And Stormwind kept contact with Garithos. Before Garithos bit the Dreadlord bullet Arthas already ran away to Stormwind taking significant Scourge forces with himself. So are we seriously to believe that with significant part of Scourge forces fucking away even from Lordaeron and what remained in Lordaeron not even extending to Dwarven territory people of Stormwind still thought it rational that a sudden arrival of a small undead force on the other end of the world from Scourge's position are also Scourge? Despite Scourge until that point working like a tidal wave swiping away all opposition?

As for scenario B, Stormwind knowing about the Civil War in the Plaguelands doesn't magically translate to them knowing about what Forsaken did to Garithos' forces because there weren't any survivors that we know of to tell the tale.

[Heladys]

Please tell me when did Alliance ever regarded even one of the Horde lives as having meaningful value? It's lot like they view Orcs, Trolls and Tauren as mere animals and enemies who have to be exterminated, Forsaken as abominations, Blood Elves (and now probably also Nightborne) as traitors and Goblins as soul-less mercenaries.

That's a stinking lie.

We like Taurens.

[mickybrighteyes]

Does the Alliance have extensive contact with the Eredar? From what we know, they first came in contact with the local Night Elves and they were unfailingly courteous and obviously aligned with the Light. The fact that they were being chased by fel-infused highborne is probably a big plus for the Night Elves in that.

Eredar were the commanders of the legion leading demonic forces in conquering of worlds. The night elves fighting the legion would see such entities as eredar warlocks and such (think what was seen among the various regions of outland) as their enemy forces.

These dudes who are basically the same dudes with a different philosophical view show up nearby and... they're rather warmly welcomed and greeted by the nation of people who hold multi-millenia long grudges for petty shit. Nevermind the whole retconned into existence messing up other established lore with their presence bullshit because now the 'draenei' have nothing to do with 'draenor' and the name means something akin to uncorrupted.

Draenei should have had NO contact with any races of Azeroth (blood elves aside) while Man'ari Eredar DID and keep in mind that Draenei ARE Eredar.

For the Worgen, it was again the Night elves who approached them, who have a very good understanding of what the worgen are and who at first communicated with them seeking to see if they could find a cure as a culmination of efforts with the Scythe of Elune that we could follow in quests all through classic; the Humans of Stormwind were actually not that welcoming to them and Varian tried to bar their entry early on.

I personally don't like how much the Night Elves changed from the third war into post war Alliance (mostly cause there's really no explanation). Them showing up because of the Scythe right in time to see the nation fall

As for DKs, first, by that time the Alliance had interacted with Forsaken extensively and thus knew there were undead that were independent of the Scourge and second they came vouched by one of the greatest heroes of Azeroth.

They were still fresh from sacking lands of the living at the command of the lich king. This wasn't some old event that they were part of but current events. Realistically, the DK's were more recently slaying the living than those envoys... however that's more conjecture since that whole mess was mostly just exposition or side notes as part of other events and largely impaired by later retcons that forget/ignore details.

Again when it comes to the Forsaken emissaries we have one of two scenarios:
a) Stormwind has no proper intelligence on what happened in Lordaeron beyond the refugees. In this scenario they know of the zombie apocalypse and the Scourge and would thus treat Forsaken emissaries as Scourge (keep in mind Gutterspeak as well)
b) Stormwind DOES know what happened in Lordaeron, in which case they know that the Forsaken wiped out the only remnants of the army of Lordaeron still active there.

First off, gutterspeak is lordaeron slang... the lordaeron people would know it and it is comprised of multiple 'alliance' languages. it really got inflated due to original intent on splitting the factions and limiting player interaction. Language limitations are also rather... poor arguments when you look at how Tauren mingle just fine with humans and Night Elves given there's no 'common' shared language between them.

In the first example, it just shows a justifiable over reaction... that in hindsight is a very poor diplomatic maneuver lacking a lot of intelligence (and other issues concerning the story in general ignoring things)

In the second example it also shows that there should be some level of awareness concerning the actions in the north which would include more than just the actions of the forsaken, but also other events of gross incompetence... thus making the envoys something worth meeting in some capacity (but this idea is never discussed as the envoys just disappear in the story).

IMO if the envoys were killed on sight it's a very stupid act on the part of the alliance regardless of their undead PTSD. And these later additions of groups that could easily be mistaken for OTHER horrible entities that have harmed the local population is a rather fucked up series of events in comparison.

edit:

On the subject of language in game:

The real-world explanation for the fact that undead aren't able to speak Common is simply because the developers don't want players communicating across factions.

technically Forsaken who were alive knew 'common' and early in the game would continue to do so but this was removed for various reasons.

The devs have apparently shifted on this stance looking at pandaren and ren'dorei and how they can communicate cross faction.... and I think mages as well under specific conditions?

[Aucald]

I am pretty sure there is an example of Forsaken not being able to talk to the living in lore. @Super Dickmann can probably give us the quote

Dan Golthas, an Apprentice Leatherworker in the Rogue's Quarter of the Undercity, has this as flavor dialogue when spoken to: "When I clawed my way out of the grave, I thought my family would welcome me with open arms. Instead, they drove me out of the village, screaming in a language I could no longer understand."

[mickybrighteyes]

I am pretty sure there is an example of Forsaken not being able to talk to the living in lore. @Super Dickmann can probably give us the quote

And yet there are as many if not more examples of the various peoples interacting with the language issues not being present...

edit:
I forget that the game's story entirely forgets any semblance of a language barrier for such cases as international relations.

Like the Thalassians suddenly forgetting common entirely because some human gave them a hard time while at the same time locations like dalaran have no issues housing the likes of dwarves and elves and humans.

It also is odd that Gutterspeak is treated as such a different language when it is also stated to be form of typical common...

but also nevermind that the lore also states:

In Warcraft lore, Forsaken can still understand and speak Common. However, they never speak it under normal circumstances. Some have forgotten how to understand Common (see below). However, in World of Warcraft, undead player characters can speak only Gutterspeak and Orcish.

So chalk this up with the many writers not paying attention to each other.

[Super Dickmann]

I am pretty sure there is an example of Forsaken not being able to talk to the living in lore. @Super Dickmann can probably give us the quote

I'd love to flex my Forsaken boner on this, but no @Aucald already posted it, and it's the same one. There's other allusions to it like in Nathanos' story, but in general it's even more inconsistent than their endurance which is only really questioned in BTS and even then can be explained away. There's also Zelling, where he tries to explain himself and they don't understand, but whether that's an actual language barrier or just part of them freaking out, who knows. By contrast, Forsaken speech is in a weird place. We know that the body can be mutated as part of undeath - that's what ghouls are, so it could affect the vocal chords and make 'Forsaken' a separate language. But we also know that's not really the standard since named Forsaken communicate with living all the time, including say apothecaries with their prisoners. Additionally, Gutterspeak was originally conceived of as a dialect for fences and crooks, but then it got retconned (?). It's weird. I'd say it's mostly gameplay.

[Mehrunes]

I am pretty sure there is an example of Forsaken not being able to talk to the living in lore. @Super Dickmann can probably give us the quote

And they obviously communicated with the Horde to join it through smoke signals.

Edit: Not to mention the Gathering which somehow didn't have translators. And all chapters of BtS with Faol. And the exchange between undead Calia and Anduin at the end. Some random Forsaken twerp forgetting what words meant after getting resurrected as if resurrection was super easy, barely an inconvenience doesn't prove anything in regards to Forsaken at large when we have gazillion more examples of them communicating with other races just fine.

And let's not forget what started this entire topic here. Which was your direct implication that gutterspeak was an issue that contributed to Forsaken envoys being killed by the Alliance. Which remains flat out ridiculous even if you bring up people like Dan Golthas. Because Sylvanas obviously wouldn't use Forsaken with such an impediment for the task. Vide the aforementioned fact of their envoys to the Horde somehow conveying her message just fine.

[Aucald]

I'd love to flex my Forsaken boner on this, but no @Aucald already posted it, and it's the same one. There's other allusions to it like in Nathanos' story, but in general it's even more inconsistent than their endurance which is only really questioned in BTS and even then can be explained away. There's also Zelling, where he tries to explain himself and they don't understand, but whether that's an actual language barrier or just part of them freaking out, who knows. By contrast, Forsaken speech is in a weird place. We know that the body can be mutated as part of undeath - that's what ghouls are, so it could affect the vocal chords and make 'Forsaken' a separate language. But we also know that's not really the standard since named Forsaken communicate with living all the time, including say apothecaries with their prisoners. Additionally, Gutterspeak was originally conceived of as a dialect for fences and crooks, but then it got retconned (?). It's weird. I'd say it's mostly gameplay.

My "headcanon" for this has always been that brief submergence into the Scourge hive-mind essentially scrubbed away their ability to speak or understand Common, ensuring that the living couldn't try dissuade them or play on any remaining emotions to attempt to pry a member of the Scourge away from the yoke of the Lich King. Obviously this doesn't work for the newest generation of Forsaken raised directly by Sylvanas' Val'kyr, though I guess you could say that they still use Scourge methods of raising the undead and this scrubbing behavior still happens because they don't know any better (or don't really care).

But yes, it's really just a gameplay mechanic with a very loose lore justification in a handful of places.