*Spoilers* Tyrande's reaction to end of 4th war

[Darththeo]

I... You mean before and after her fucking home was burnt down? Yeah, that doesn't change people or their motives at all. Holy shit dude lol

Yes, motives can change. I am not fucking arguing otherwise ... I am arguing about how they changed. She knows Sylvanas was planning to divide the Alliance ... so she goes and divides the alliance. Tyrande isn't supposed to be a total idiot, but whatever, the prior expansion she let an evil entity manipulate her into chasing illusions. So maybe she is secretly an idiot.

You need to stop complaining about shitty writing if you think Tyrande was the most consistent character. Anduin, Sylvanas, Genn, Nathonas, Lor'themar, Jaina, Talanji, Baine, Saurfang, etc ... all more consistent. And yet you think Tyrande was consistent?

And let's just go here, you think Blizzard is "shitting on Night Elves" but gave Night elves the most consistent character? Yeah, that's not shitting on.

[TheRagebear]

Yes, motives can change. I am not fucking arguing otherwise ... I am arguing about how they changed. She knows Sylvanas was planning to divide the Alliance ... so she goes and divides the alliance. Tyrande isn't supposed to be a total idiot, but whatever, the prior expansion she let an evil entity manipulate her into chasing illusions. So maybe she is secretly an idiot.

Sylvanas wanted to hold Teldrassil hostage to keep the Alliance from attacking her directly, forcing them into a defensive position from which Sylvanas' Horde could pretty much do whatever they wanted including preparing to attack Stormwind. Then she burnt down the tree. If you think that wanting vengeance after something like that is unreasonable that's your problem man. Emotions exist, and occasionally they guide peoples' motives. I'm sorry to have to inform you of this.

You need to stop complaining about shitty writing if you think Tyrande was the most consistent character. Anduin, Sylvanas, Genn, Nathonas, Lor'themar, Jaina, Talanji, Baine, Saurfang, etc ... all more consistent. And yet you think Tyrande was consistent?

You're really going to call Jaina consistent?

"Beware of me."
"Oh wait, I forgive my dad."
"We should let the Horde mourn their dead rather than press the advantage and end this war before more people die for them to mourn."

Yes, I think that wanting vengeance on someone that attempted to genocide your people - and still wanting that after your faction is apparently willing to "let bygones be bygones" - is consistent. More consistent than Jaina and Genn flipping between "Fuck the Horde" and "Okay the Horde is fine it's just Sylvanas that's the problem." More consistent than Lor'themar and Talanji's lack of screentime, and certainly more consistent than Honorfang's weird suicidal tendencies that seem to only show up after his plan for enslaving a race accidentally becomes a genocide.

[Every Pwny]

It doesn't need to be spelled out. it needs to be addressed in some manner. This is my problem with you, you see everything as just a dichotomy and it isn't. It is either X or not X, and that isn't how things work.

Just because the threat is known to the audience does not mean the threat is know to the characters (that is actually evidence of shitty writing) ... well, then they did shit writing because a character that saw Sylvanas kill Saurfang was arguing for caution, meaning it is clear even someone close to Tyrande doesn't see Sylvanas as a current threat worth devoting resources too. And look at that, we can see from ONE LINE that a character realize that devoting resources to Sylvanas is a bad idea because they view her as a reduced threat ... and guess what? IT WASN'T SPELLED OUT. But, totally, couldn't remotely do anything for that with Tyrande in 5 lines ... that's too few.

The problem is they have nuggets of decent writing, but are shit all around it.

No, you just want it spelled out that's why you need her to say it, instead of needing to infer anything. Why would the threat of Sylvanas not be known to Tyrande? You keep never answering that question and then going off on irrelevant tangents. It would be as if Tyrande didn't know what happened at Teldrassil or what happened to Malfurion, or how Sylvanas was raising the night elf dead etc. You have to really just ignore Tyrande's history this expansion to believe she doesn't see Sylvanas as a threat. Your argument is purely based on Tyrande not directly saying "Sylvanas is a threat", it doesn't need to be said as the audience knows this completely so it's understood. If Tyrande came out and said "Sylvanas is no threat to us but we need to kill her anyway" that would be a revelation, but there is nothing to imply she doesn't see this super powerful being as no longer a threat to anyone.

Again it goes back to your need of having everything spelled out, just because she doesn't say it doesn't mean they don't believe it, and in cases where they aren't spelling things out for you constantly like some kids cartoon, you can infer things based on their past interactions. It's not specifically a you problem, lots of people see to have a hard time inferring things from the story and only really understand it when it's completely spelled out. They absolutely could have added something that unnecessary to Tyrande's dialogue to fill up some lines, but there can be other reasons she's not talking to the King who didn't bother to help out her people take back Darkshore and hasn't supported them since or now.

[Nathasil]

Tyrande "splitting the Alliance" by going to Darkshore? Have you even played the questline there? Sylvanas wanted to raise an army of Undead Night Elves. What do you THINK this army was intended to do? By going there and smashing the Forsaken Tyrande saved Azeroth. Nobody else would have done that. Not Anduin, not the Worgen by themselves and CERTAINLY not Saurfang. Everybody who was there SAW what Sylvanas' lackeys (= Horde PCs) were doing there.

And YES making sure Sylvanas did not get that army and defile the Night Elves even further WAS more important at the time than attacking Dazar'alor and killing a Troll-King who did not even like the Horde and NEVER was member of it. By going to Darkshore and defending her home instead of doing some completely irrelevant BS that lead nowhere Tyrande was standing up for the Alliance. She was doing what the ENTIRE Alliance should have been doing.

Following her to Darkshore and killing Forsaken was the ONE TIME in this petty excuse of an expansion i felt something like "faction pride" as an Alliance player - of course it did not last long as Tyrande's story there ended with basically achieving nothing and two more Night Elven heroes being raised into slavery - a story that was not even told to the finish and Delaryn now apparently shows up as a Forsaken in Tirisfal with no explanation at all.

Tyrande is right to ignore N'Zoth and focus on Sylvanas. I like her for doing so. It is not just "vengeful" - it is 100% the right thing to do. The same way anybody with a brain said in the beginning of the expansion that this entire war is bonkers and we should be healing Azeroth instead - but all of the NPCs that said so (basically only Kadgar) were shoved to the sidelines and removed from the expansion. At least, this time Tyrande is still in and you as a player can at least PRETEND to follow her.

Of course, Blizzard is not really giving you the option of taking a pass on this N'zoth sidestory and actually go tracking down Sylvanas instead. And THIS is where the story falls flat on its face. It SHOULD give you this option. But it cannot, because the game says N'zoth comes first and Sylvanas later. That is why Tyrande seems somewhat displaced. If we actually could join her now and fight Sylvanas instead of N'Zoth, it would actually be a good development.

But us not having this option is not Tyrande's fault.

[KaPe]

Of course, Blizzard is not really giving you the option of taking a pass on this N'zoth sidestory and actually go tracking down Sylvanas instead. And THIS is where the story falls flat on its face. It SHOULD give you this option. But it cannot, because the game says N'zoth comes first and Sylvanas later. That is why Tyrande seems somewhat displaced. If we actually could join her now and fight Sylvanas instead of N'Zoth, it would actually be a good development.

But us not having this option is not Tyrande's fault.

It's kinda funny how we just had Legion and Stormheim, which clearly prove that it's possible to do more than one thing at a time. Fighting the Burning Legion was the main goal, but it didn't stop Sylvanas from trying to gain more Val'kyr - and Genn stopping her. Logically, this should mean that factions are perfectly capable of fighting N'zoth, while still having, say, SI:7/Uncrowned track down Sylvanas and Nathanos. We don't have to confront her immediately, just make an effort instead of ignoring her.

But nope, nothing like that is even mentioned. No one, other than Tyrande, even talks about the former warchief. It's like she's the only one who remembers that Sylvanas is still alive - while everyone acts like everything has already been dealt with. Are they from separate timelines or something? Whether Tyrande hates the Horde or not, everyone should agree that taking down Sylvanas is important. Maybe not as important as N'zoth... but, again, it's possible to split your resources between multiple tasks. We had time to deal with King Mechagon despite Azshara being the main threat of this patch. Imagine that.

[Dopplegager]

Yeah I played both. Only one side kills keeping NPCs in a ight elf settlement. Spoilers it wssnt the alliance.

The Horde went to war. The banshee queen didnt do it by herself.

[Soon-TM]

@KaPe are you really asking for a consistent plot? How dare you, you damn entitled little &@#$ !

Not to mention that Alliance could also rely on its newly formed vassal state for help with tracking the morally grey lady.

[Whitedragon]

I hate the faction war, but I hate Anduin more.

Hate him all you like, at least most times he has the decency to stay in his castle until he is needed to be the 3rd wheel in a cutscene or cinematic. The war campaign on the other hand loves to rub it's dirty self all over you for expansions at a time.

[Ophenia]

Tyrande is right to ignore N'Zoth and focus on Sylvanas. I like her for doing so. It is not just "vengeful" - it is 100% the right thing to do. The same way anybody with a brain said in the beginning of the expansion that this entire war is bonkers and we should be healing Azeroth instead - but all of the NPCs that said so (basically only Kadgar) were shoved to the sidelines and removed from the expansion..

The more this expansion progresses, the more I'm convinced Blizzard forgot about this lil' sword

We'll get rid of N'zoth by 8.3, but this sword will still be here and Azeroth will still be bleeding unless there is a 8.3.5 or 8.4 where we solve this minor issue. I'm expecting this to be resolved the same lame way as we "drained" its dark energy with our artifact during an anti-climatic quest and cinematic at the end of Legion

[Darththeo]

Sylvanas wanted to hold Teldrassil hostage to keep the Alliance from attacking her directly, forcing them into a defensive position from which Sylvanas' Horde could pretty much do whatever they wanted including preparing to attack Stormwind. Then she burnt down the tree. If you think that wanting vengeance after something like that is unreasonable that's your problem man. Emotions exist, and occasionally they guide peoples' motives. I'm sorry to have to inform you of this.

Is it always going to be unreasonable/irrational? No, of course not. But it is in Tyrande's case.

You're really going to call Jaina consistent?

"Beware of me."
"Oh wait, I forgive my dad."
"We should let the Horde mourn their dead rather than press the advantage and end this war before more people die for them to mourn."

Versus:
"I will insure my people's safety and not allow us to be divided."
No development later: "I am sorry, I cannot stay, I will retake Darkshore risking the remaining people I have and dividing what forces we have."

Yes, I think that wanting vengeance on someone that attempted to genocide your people - and still wanting that after your faction is apparently willing to "let bygones be bygones" - is consistent. More consistent than Jaina and Genn flipping between "Fuck the Horde" and "Okay the Horde is fine it's just Sylvanas that's the problem." More consistent than Lor'themar and Talanji's lack of screentime, and certainly more consistent than Honorfang's weird suicidal tendencies that seem to only show up after his plan for enslaving a race accidentally becomes a genocide.

Genn always preaches caution when it comes to the Horde, but he also understand that constant fighting doesn't do anything. He is never "Okay the Horde is fine." It is "Okay, I recognize that the Horde isn't the greater threat, but I still don't trust them."

Again, I have not once argued that Tyrande should let "bygones be bygones." Genn hasn't, he still distrusts the Horde. Jaina still hasn't trusted the Horde, but she realized that she never really mourned her father and she for a while she always had some level of compassion even for her enemies. She is moving on from her wound done by Garrosh.

Lack of screen time? Lor'themar and Talanji had several times more screen time than Tyrande this expansion. Lor'themar's character is "I will do what I must to ensure that the Blood Elves survive." When Tel'drissil burn, he knew that the Alliance may come from Quel'thalas meaning he had no choice but to help defend Undercity to protect his people. He hates Void Elves because of what happened during the Nightborne's recruitment, their existence threatens the Sun Well if they get too close plus their actions against him prior to them becoming Void Elves. And when he saw that Sylvanas' motives were more about Death than winning the war, he realized that the best thing for his people would be oppose her. He regrets not seeing that sooner.

Lor'themar is 10 times more consistent because everything he did remained true to his core motivation "My people before all else."

- - - Updated - - -

No, you just want it spelled out that's why you need her to say it, instead of needing to infer anything. Why would the threat of Sylvanas not be known to Tyrande? You keep never answering that question and then going off on irrelevant tangents. It would be as if Tyrande didn't know what happened at Teldrassil or what happened to Malfurion, or how Sylvanas was raising the night elf dead etc. You have to really just ignore Tyrande's history this expansion to believe she doesn't see Sylvanas as a threat. Your argument is purely based on Tyrande not directly saying "Sylvanas is a threat", it doesn't need to be said as the audience knows this completely so it's understood. If Tyrande came out and said "Sylvanas is no threat to us but we need to kill her anyway" that would be a revelation, but there is nothing to imply she doesn't see this super powerful being as no longer a threat to anyone.

Again it goes back to your need of having everything spelled out, just because she doesn't say it doesn't mean they don't believe it, and in cases where they aren't spelling things out for you constantly like some kids cartoon, you can infer things based on their past interactions. It's not specifically a you problem, lots of people see to have a hard time inferring things from the story and only really understand it when it's completely spelled out. They absolutely could have added something that unnecessary to Tyrande's dialogue to fill up some lines, but there can be other reasons she's not talking to the King who didn't bother to help out her people take back Darkshore and hasn't supported them since or now.

No, I need things addressed. The evidence we have does not default lead to Tyrande believing Sylvanas is still a threat because all the evidence we have that Tyrande would know could lead to her no longer believing it. And yes, Sylvanas did all that ... but Tyrande had two people informing her of the LACK OF THREAT (without actually "spelling it out to her") and rather than address her feelings of Sylvanas still being a threat went "I WILL HAVE VENGEANCE" both times. That is poor writing because even if she does consider Sylanas a true threat on any level ... they are focusing on her emotion making it seem like it is the only motivation she has.

It doesn't have to be spelled out. Again, there is a wide range from "Spelling it out/Listing it" to "Maybe possible this is true." Yes, Tyrande has all the reason to consider Sylvanas a threat ... I have never argued otherwise. I am stating that we cannot state as a fact she does. Again, you are arguing from false dichotomies. You have never once addressed my argument, merely your strawmen.

- - - Updated - - -

Tyrande "splitting the Alliance" by going to Darkshore? Have you even played the questline there? Sylvanas wanted to raise an army of Undead Night Elves. What do you THINK this army was intended to do? By going there and smashing the Forsaken Tyrande saved Azeroth. Nobody else would have done that. Not Anduin, not the Worgen by themselves and CERTAINLY not Saurfang. Everybody who was there SAW what Sylvanas' lackeys (= Horde PCs) were doing there.

And YES making sure Sylvanas did not get that army and defile the Night Elves even further WAS more important at the time than attacking Dazar'alor and killing a Troll-King who did not even like the Horde and NEVER was member of it. By going to Darkshore and defending her home instead of doing some completely irrelevant BS that lead nowhere Tyrande was standing up for the Alliance. She was doing what the ENTIRE Alliance should have been doing.

Following her to Darkshore and killing Forsaken was the ONE TIME in this petty excuse of an expansion i felt something like "faction pride" as an Alliance player - of course it did not last long as Tyrande's story there ended with basically achieving nothing and two more Night Elven heroes being raised into slavery - a story that was not even told to the finish and Delaryn now apparently shows up as a Forsaken in Tirisfal with no explanation at all.

Tyrande is right to ignore N'Zoth and focus on Sylvanas. I like her for doing so. It is not just "vengeful" - it is 100% the right thing to do. The same way anybody with a brain said in the beginning of the expansion that this entire war is bonkers and we should be healing Azeroth instead - but all of the NPCs that said so (basically only Kadgar) were shoved to the sidelines and removed from the expansion. At least, this time Tyrande is still in and you as a player can at least PRETEND to follow her.

Of course, Blizzard is not really giving you the option of taking a pass on this N'zoth sidestory and actually go tracking down Sylvanas instead. And THIS is where the story falls flat on its face. It SHOULD give you this option. But it cannot, because the game says N'zoth comes first and Sylvanas later. That is why Tyrande seems somewhat displaced. If we actually could join her now and fight Sylvanas instead of N'Zoth, it would actually be a good development.

But us not having this option is not Tyrande's fault.

I have literally addressed 100% of your point and I have to suggest, go back and play the game without your naive alliance goggles. Also, she didn't KNOW Sylvanas was rezzing Night Elves until she got there. She was just going back to retake her land.

[mysticx]

Sounds like Tyrande, like Sylvanas, is also going to be killed off in the future.

One of the Old god prophecies is “The fall of night reveals her true face, she will bring only ruin”, i’ll bet that and the lines about “Nobody holding the Night warrior’s power that long before” are hints at Tyrande’s inevitable fall to darkness and subsequent death, or the power will “Tear her apart”, like Maiev says at some point, either way Tyrande’s days are numbered, none shall oppose the boy king and survive!

[Aliven]

One of the Old god prophecies is “The fall of night reveals her true face, she will bring only ruin”, i’ll bet that and the lines about “Nobody holding the Night warrior’s power that long before” are hints at Tyrande’s inevitable fall to darkness and subsequent death, or the power will “Tear her apart”, like Maiev says at some point, either way Tyrande’s days are numbered, none shall oppose the boy king and survive!

To be true nobody even got night warrior power. Ritual killed everyone who tryed it before.

[Alixie]

Anduin: I know it's difficult to trust, but there are signs of change within the Horde. In place of a warchief, there is now a council led by Baine, Thrall, and the others. I believe they can--

He didnt ask them for any territories back. Didnt ask them to get rid of their nukes. Didnt ask them to leave Darkshore, Gilneas, Kul Tiras, or Arathi. Didnt ask them to clean up everything they Blighted. Didnt ask the Forsaken to free their prisoners. Didnt ask for any reparations or help with the survivors of their genocide to "forge a future". He asked Tyrande to blindly trust the Horde again, leave the same people who started this war in charge, and allow them to keep their spoils and walk away consequence free.

What's stopping these morons from justifying another invasion? Because Anduin is nice and wants to have friendly picnics with the Horde? He was already conducting peaceful outreach with the Forsaken (and changing some Ally leaders minds about undead) when Saurfang was convinced Anduin would randomly turn evil and nuke the Horde with Azerite. This is so ridiculous. This peace treaty is purposely flimsy so that the Horde and Alliance will have an easy excuse to go to war in the future.

[Moonrage]

He didnt ask them for any territories back. Didnt ask them to get rid of their nukes. Didnt ask them to leave Darkshore, Gilneas, Kul Tiras, or Arathi. Didnt ask them to clean up everything they Blighted. Didnt ask the Forsaken to free their prisoners. Didnt ask for any reparations or help with the survivors of their genocide to "forge a future". He asked Tyrande to blindly trust the Horde again, leave the same people who started this war in charge, and allow them to keep their spoils and walk away consequence free.

What's stopping these morons from justifying another invasion? Because Anduin is nice and wants to have friendly picnics with the Horde? He was already conducting peaceful outreach with the Forsaken (and changing some Ally leaders minds about undead) when Saurfang was convinced Anduin would randomly turn evil and nuke the Horde with Azerite. This is so ridiculous. This peace treaty is purposely flimsy so that the Horde and Alliance will have an easy excuse to go to war in the future.

Agreed, everyone's saying Tyrande is the crazy one for not wanting peace with the Horde, but really? It's Anduin, he blindly trusts the Horde now that Sylvanas is out of the picture. Calling it now, if Tyrande doesn't do anything about the Horde, we'll have another war in 5-6 years.

[mysticx]

To be true nobody even got night warrior power. Ritual killed everyone who tryed it before.

I think that’s a cover story, more likely that the previous night warriors were so embarrassed by the meager actual power increase they got that the Night elves just said “Well, they died” to avoid widespread mockery...

[Amaterasu65]

If we ever have a Tyrande Loyalist choice I'm directly following her.

[TheFirstOnes]

I mean, after N'zoth, I'll just slay both Sylvanas and Tyrande then. Hey, more loot for me. I also wanna piss off Elune. Fuck that worthless goddess.

[Jalham]

I think that’s a cover story, more likely that the previous night warriors were so embarrassed by the meager actual power increase they got that the Night elves just said “Well, they died” to avoid widespread mockery...

What are you even talking about ? She literally AOE one shots soldiers left and right after her ascension, for a pure priestess that's a huge power boost. Doubt we have seen her fully power yet too, since she barely got a handle on it when she first got it and we didnt see her use it again since then.

[lummiuster]

I hope Sylvanas end up being the good character (probably some bs thing like she did all of it to save azeroth) and that Tyrande becomes succumbed by madness and the last boss of the expansion is actually Tyrande. I would play retail again for sure.

[scubi666stacy]

I hope Sylvanas end up being the good character (probably some bs thing like she did all of it to save azeroth) and that Tyrande becomes succumbed by madness and the last boss of the expansion is actually Tyrande. I would play retail again for sure.

I hope we get to kill both, together with Jaina and Baine, as presented in the End Times Dungeon.