Saying Calia isn't Alliance is like a level of comedy I am not prepared for.
Kind of depends on how you define "Alliance" in this context. I'd call Calia a neutral party - she was originally a member of the Conclave, a neutral order of Priests. She did work with Anduin, but not in an Alliance vs. Horde capacity, but more in humanitarian outreach to the Forsaken (which is in keeping with her role as a Priestess). She has friends among the Alliance due to her having been Human herself, but having Alliance or Horde friends does not itself declare oneself *for* a given faction. There's a marked "one drop of blue/red" type thinking that seems to prevail on these forums - that if you have any truck whatsoever with a given faction then you are of that faction, but that's not really a line of thought I agree with in most cases.
I think Calia is closer to the Alliance than she is the Horde, both by virtue of her former status as a Human and generally in temperament, but I don't think she's patently a member of the Alliance nor a subject of Anduin. She's a neutral and a free agent, more or else; able to decide where she needs to be based on her own ethical compass.
"We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead
Exactly this. But because she has 1 more blue drop than red, she gets considered an Alliance character. Which is absurd. She WAS neutral, very slightly Alliance-leaning (For reasons that seem entirely because Sylvanas fucking killed her) but now has swapped to the Forsaken in Sylvanas' absence, which is an interesting level of irony considering Sylvanas' paranoia about her in Before the Storm.I'd call Calia a neutral party - she was originally a member of the Conclave, a neutral order of Priests. She did work with Anduin, but not in an Alliance vs. Horde capacity, but more in humanitarian outreach to the Forsaken (which is in keeping with her role as a Priestess).
Its also funny to see people apparently think that because the former citizens of Lordaeron hate Arthas that they therefore hate the Menethil line entirely, which has been consistently proven to be nonsensical. Both with how they still treat Terenas' memory with reverence, as well as directly in Before the Storm when we see some citizens think of Calia as a leader in a positive term, including Sylvanas, who is so threatened by her that she kills her.
The Forsaken hate Arthas. They do not hate Terenas. And they do not hate Calia. And never have.
Last edited by Yoshingo; 2019-10-15 at 08:15 PM.
Valeera's allegiances are a bit more questionable than Calia's all told, I would say; she directly serves Anduin as his go-between and spy. While she hasn't declared officially for the Alliance I would say this is a distinction without a difference. Calia's ultimate loyalties are bit more unclear - her service to the Alliance has ostensibly dove-tailed with her role as a Priestess, in a not unexpected or surprising fashion. But she has no formal ties to the Alliance under Varian and now Anduin, and has been uninvolved with politics entirely until her unfortunate debacle at the Gathering. Valeera falls more heavily Alliance than Calia does, in my estimation.
"We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead
I'm glad at least Lillian framed it as "We need a leader & no one else wants to do it" because the "She's the next in line for the throne" isn't a great argument. It's been 30 since any line of royal succession has mattered & I don't think the Forsaken really care about it, especially when your monarchy ended in Murder & Plague & the person who did that is Calia's closest relative.
While the latter is bad, the first one is also bad, since the Forsaken don't even try to self-govern but immediately have their apparently one character since everyone else ceased to be go looking for someone who did bugger all for fifteen years to be their leader as they can't function without a leadership cult and all that about self-determination was apparently bullshit. Even more so that Voss gushes over her when the very first comment Calia makes is praising the dad Lilian was forced to kill.
Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.
Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.
True, but way before the Third War the Blood Elves were also the High Elves, and were themselves members of the Alliance. Affiliations have always been fluid over time - and Calia was just a kid when Lordaeron was decimated by the Scourge and her father killed. I sincerely doubt she was in any way politically active within the Alliance.
Last edited by Aucald; 2019-10-15 at 08:52 PM.
"We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead
The Calia not being Alliance argument is a semantic one. Her two best friends and the only prominent characters she has ties with except Faol are the Alliance High King - who's also the guy as a result of contact with she decided to do things and the Lord-Admiral of Kul Tiras, her best friend in life and the sister of the man she's hooked up with. Her only action in contact with a Horde race until 8.2.5 is to ask them to defect to the Alliance and that the Alliance could cover for them. She has never shared a line with any Horde leader.
This is without mentioning how her aesthetic and demeanour are Alliance-based, being the dynastic successor of an established WC2-era Alliance kingdom, tied heavily with the priesthood of the Light and one of its most prominent leaders and representing the identity of that WC2 and 3 Alliance kingdom in contradiction to any changes that undertook afterwards.
Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.
Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.
It’s certainly fluid but Calia is in no way associated with the horde culturally. Perhaps if the alliance or even a segment of the alliance had treated her terribly since her “undeath” or whatever it would make more sense. But as of now she’s an alliance affiliated character so it just seems bizarre.
I would say the claim that Anduin or Jaina are her "best friends" is the semantic argument, as this has no real basis I can find. Jaina obviously greets Calia warmly because of all she's done for her brother Derek, but whether or not they were great friends when Jaina was involved with Arthas is unknown (and this service has nothing to do with the Alliance in specific). Similar to Anduin, who she apparently just met while serving in the Conclave, and with whom she shares an ideology in terms of the priesthood of the Light. Derek's allegiances are also uncertain, he's been dead for many years now and world he knew has moved on in ways he scarcely knows, and he has also been irrevocably changed. Simply put, Calia has rendered no special duties to the Alliance outside her personal and neutral calling as a priestess of the Light. Whatever ties she has are purely personal.
"Sharing a line" with an Alliance and/or Horde leader isn't necessary for someone to declare for a given faction, either; so this line of reasoning doesn't seem particularly valid.
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I am uncertain of what would be required to be associated with the Horde culturally - this seems like a "No True Scotsman" type of argument.
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She was still young and pretty uninvolved in the court. In "Arthas: Rise of the Lich King" Calia considered herself too young to be married off, which was part of her reason for refusing the arrangement and feuding with her father (who was under Prestor's charming enchantment at the time).
"We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead
This argument is as pedantic as it is wrong. Calia and Jaina are described as being close in life, with Jaina exclaiming in Stormsong how glad she is for Calia (and Derek) to be back in her life after a long time away. Jaina is the one to allow Calia to live there away from the war and spend time with her brother and Jaina is the one she parts with, which is an emotional moment for her in 8.3. Anduin is the one to return her from the dead, to encourage her to follow her path with the Forsaken and who allows the safe haven that has her call for the Forsaken to defect to the Alliance in the first place. These are strong bonds with the two biggest Alliance characters, whereas her bonds with literally any Horde character is nill, discounting Voss as a worshiper. If you call all those as being nothing beyond what a neutral priestess will do, I don't know what to tell you, except to compare her with Faol or even fucking Velen re: their actions for the Alliance in BTS and BFA and you'll know who comes out ahead in being Alliance.
Having any bonds to speak of with the faction's characters helps tie someone in with that faction. Compare the Mists of Pandaria blurbs and do you think "struggling to keep aggression in check" "monstrous" and "values strength (and honor)" fits Calia better or maybe "nobility, faith, honor and sacrifice". Or to go over the list of the traits mentioned there - Calia is not militaristic in any sense, she's never been in a fight and dislikes it, she's not evil, she's honorable, but so is literally everyone on both factions so that's not a qualifier for anything, she's not monstrous, but beyond human perfection and she's never been rejected by anyone but is loved by every character who encounters her who isn't Satan incarnate. Add that to being the hereditary princess of the pre-WoW Alliance kingdom, with all the trappings thereof and explicitly aiming to restore its identity in contradiction with what it was for its entire tenure in the Horde. She is neither a noble, shamanistic and tribal character, nor a reject joining out of convenience. There is absolutely nothing about her that's Horde."Sharing a line" with an Alliance and/or Horde leader isn't necessary for someone to declare for a given faction, either; so this line of reasoning doesn't seem particularly valid.
Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2019-10-15 at 09:15 PM.
Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.
Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.
Yes, Calia's "slightly" leaning towards Alliance is totes for reasons that "seem entirely because Sylvanas fucking killed her". She obviously had no such leanings prior to her death where she hanged out in Alliance cities, assisted the Alliance preparations for the Gathering, participated in the Gathering with the Alliance delegation, casually engaged with Alliance's leaders to the point where she befriended its High King and encouraged Horde members to defect to the Alliance. Nope, no Alliance leaning prior to her being killed by Sylvanas
So, lot of new race customization incoming?
That doesn't make them close - Jaina simply says she's glad to have Calia back in her life after such a long time, a fine statement, but completely lacking in the context you're attempting to shoehorn in. Jaina allows Calia space and time because she's actively helping Derek. I'm sure Jaina and Calia were familiar with one another due to Jaina's involvement in her brother Arthas' life, but there's still nothing underlining that they enjoyed any kind of especially close friendship or rapport besides from the current - and Jaina is likely happy to see *any* part of Arthas' life untouched from the darkness that ultimately claimed him. Both Anduin and Faol helped Calia attain her status an undead, but this was both facilitated and ultimately the product of Saa'ra's doing - giving credit to Anduin alone would be objectively wrong. Calling Voss her "worshiper" is equally hyperbolic and goes to show your own bias in the quarter - Voss wants to use Calia, as the quest text in 8.3 itself says, which regardless of her ethical outlook isn't really the goal of a "worshiper." By your rubric, Velen's actions in TBC make him a Horde leader since he actively aids the Blood Elves in restoring the Sunwell, and they were and remain a Horde race.
A notion I disagree with on its face. Correlation is not causation - a Forsaken having living relatives in the Alliance doesn't make them any less a citizen of the Horde. This isn't how political affiliations work.
"We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead