Horde Striving Not To Be Warmongering = Horde Dead?

[Super Dickmann]

I hope they don't fuck up Cairne further in Warcraft 3 Reforged. I heard that they want to bring the story of WC 3 and WC 3 TFT in line with the current WoW Lore which could mean a shit load of retcons. And Golden has oversight over all of this as far as i know.

I mean i like this new take on Warcraft and also hope that we will get more playable races and more playable campaigns through WC 3 Reforged, so we can experience a lot of the big events that happened in the Warcraft Universe and there are many. Hell, i'd even like to play some of the wars between Horde and Alliance in Cata and MoP in an RTS format. That could be great, but if they white wash everything and turn it into to bland story of the good guys, who all love each other and defeat the devil, that would be pretty sad.

On the other hand, if Warcraft 3 Reforged is great for modders, like WC 3 is, that could be absolutely awesome for the community in regards to playing through the big events. Because some of the modders themselves are definitely better authors compared to the ones currently employed by Blizzard.

Yeah, I'm really worried for what they'll do in terms of changes, especially to Sylvanas, since she's most susceptible to this but there's also a risk the night elves get softened. The Kalimdor Horde are safe since Thrall was an extremely arch figure back then and he can't really be made more perfect than he was and Grom is a classic, the worst I can see being done is that they change some of the things surrounding Daelin, by making him sound more aggressive, changing the tone of his lines. In the original he is a deeply zealous person, but he's fatherly with Jaina, which is lost in his BFA rendition that makes him quite hostile. I have other voice concerns regarding the new Arthas and especially the new Grom/Mannoroth VA. The original Mannoroth VA has probably the best demon voice in the entire franchise one they haven't been able to match with all the filters up to now and the one in WoD just can't compare.

I'd be lying though if I said I wasn't really hyped for like a War of the Ancients campaign, or even outright WoW stuff. Hell, a WC2 remake with all the Chronicle and Tides of Darkness novel additions would be god-tier. Maybe mini-stories about the night elves joining up with the Alliance since we never saw that happen, or Warsong vs Night Elves 2.0. The sheer quantity and variety of models are a modder's wet dream and I can't wait for the kind of campaigns they'll make.

[Reinhart11]

Yeah, I'm really worried for what they'll do in terms of changes, especially to Sylvanas, since she's most susceptible to this but there's also a risk the night elves get softened. The Kalimdor Horde are safe since Thrall was an extremely arch figure back then and he can't really be made more perfect than he was and Grom is a classic, the worst I can see being done is that they change some of the things surrounding Daelin, by making him sound more aggressive, changing the tone of his lines. In the original he is a deeply zealous person, but he's fatherly with Jaina, which is lost in his BFA rendition that makes him quite hostile. I have other voice concerns regarding the new Arthas and especially the new Grom/Mannoroth VA. The original Mannoroth VA has probably the best demon voice in the entire franchise one they haven't been able to match with all the filters up to now and the one in WoD just can't compare.

I'd be lying though if I said I wasn't really hyped for like a War of the Ancients campaign, or even outright WoW stuff. Hell, a WC2 remake with all the Chronicle and Tides of Darkness novel additions would be god-tier. Maybe mini-stories about the night elves joining up with the Alliance since we never saw that happen, or Warsong vs Night Elves 2.0. The sheer quantity and variety of models are a modder's wet dream and I can't wait for the kind of campaigns they'll make.

The potential of WC 3 Reforged is huge if they do it well. I think the game could be a good vehicle for telling WoWs story they can't represent in WoW itself while doing expansions. I mean i like to read books, if they're well written, but in Warcrafts case i'd prefer some visuals. They can do books too if they want to, but i prefer the RTS format.

For example the war between the Horde and Alliance in Kalimdor in Cataclysm, with the climax being Theramore. The Pre Event was a disaster, portraying the destruction of Theramore and i would like to play such a campaign in WC 3 Reforged, from both angles, Horde and Alliance. Of course they will portray Garrosh as Hitler incarnate, but modders could probably fix that stuff to make such campaign more enjoyable.

In regards to retcons, yeah it is scary. Hopefully some day we will get some proper writers who fix this mess. Aside from that though, i hope that the events of the War of the Ancients for example, or something like the War of the Sands or the War against Satyrs or Lichking vs Nerubians or the events of WC 1 and 2 won't be so susceptible to retcons like the ones from WC 3 and TFT.

Oh god, now i fear more retcons for my beloved TFT Blood Elves. Damn it!

[Syegfryed]

Yeah, I'm really worried for what they'll do in terms of changes.

tune in for the next reforged retcon where Grom start burning the trees, attacking sleeping elves and eating their babies before they do a major vote congress to finally do the right thing and retaliate the rampage and evil orcs.

[Rozz]

This made me consider how trolls have their identity so closely tied to conflict. They're so much about punching up, reclaiming lost glory/land, tribal spats, etc... I would't describe them as warmongering, but some perspective on violence is there. I could easily see any troll group agreeing to peace, only to break it to reclaim some ruins from dwarven diggers. They're absurdly prideful and easily offended.

[Super Dickmann]

tune in for the next reforged retcon where Grom start burning the trees, attacking sleeping elves and eating their babies before they do a major vote congress to finally do the right thing and retaliate the rampage and evil orcs.

Yeah, I don't think they'll change Grom's actions but if the pussify the night elves then he'll be made to look bad by proxy.

Also minor thing but I hope they make his chin black before it comes out. It's meant to be the inspiration for Garry's chin.

[Syegfryed]

Yeah, I don't think they'll change Grom's actions but if the pussify the night elves then he'll be made to look bad by proxy.

Also minor thing but I hope they make his chin black before it comes out. It's meant to be the inspiration for Garry's chin.

i doubt they will, i already noticed they made the trolls model the same as they did with the zandalari, missing the heeltoe, i think the team only know Grom from wod.

[Super Dickmann]

i doubt they will, i already noticed they made the trolls model the same as they did with the zandalari, missing the heeltoe, i think the team only know Grom from wod.

It's likely. Which is a shame since otherwise the attention to detail is insane. Rokhan especially is like night and day compared to his WoW version.

[Reinhart11]

I wonder if these models from WC 3 Reforged are portable onto the WoW Engine. I mod a little bit for Third Age Total War mods and models from Battle for Middle Earth are portable and thus usable in Total War Mod.

If that would be possible between WoW and WC 3 Reforged, that could that NPCs and players could get quite a bit of models and maybe also more customization. And God knows WoW needs it. That would be really nice. And smart way to save ressources.

[allawyn]

No it doesn't remain to be seen. Both factions are seperate in 8.3. Anduin has no authority over Horde troops and never has. You are taking an insane perspective on a single moment in a cutscene and declaring the most ridiculous argument from it.

8.3 literally sees the Horde forming a council to lead.

Its such an incredibly dishonest claim.

You are referring to things that haven't even been released yet. You only have snippets. You know important things have yet to be revealed. You know that there can be red herrings. You don't know what forming a council even means for relations with the Alliance (is it done because the Alliance wants it that way?)

Yes, it does remain to be seen.

And "dishonest" doesn't means "things I don't personally agree with", no matter how much you want to see things that way.

[Maljinwo]

This made me consider how trolls have their identity so closely tied to conflict. They're so much about punching up, reclaiming lost glory/land, tribal spats, etc... I would't describe them as warmongering, but some perspective on violence is there. I could easily see any troll group agreeing to peace, only to break it to reclaim some ruins from dwarven diggers. They're absurdly prideful and easily offended.

Probably due to how they have been pushed out of their lands over the millenia and being portrayed as Savages by other species.

When the Amani and Gurubashi empires were at their highest, they rarely fought after all. But yes, most trolls do seem to hold grudges for pást grievances.
The Darkspear probably being an exception to the rule, but even Rokhan claims that Arathi was troll land before fighting in Stromgarde

[Yoshingo]

You are referring to things that haven't even been released yet. You only have snippets. You know important things have yet to be revealed. You know that there can be red herrings. You don't know what forming a council even means for relations with the Alliance (is it done because the Alliance wants it that way?)

Yes, it does remain to be seen.

And "dishonest" doesn't means "things I don't personally agree with", no matter how much you want to see things that way.

No, it actually doesn't. Sorry.

Anduin never had authority over anybody in the Horde and to, repeatedly, claim otherwise is just lying at this point.

There's nothing to red herring about the Horde leadership. What, they're red herring the entire Horde just following Anduin in 8.3 out of nowhere? And now you're trying to claim the Horde forming a council is because of the Alliance? We have the direct dialogue of that event lol. Stop being so disingenuous.

[Gann Stonespire]

"There is a sickness in the Horde and my heart can bear it no longer."
His exact words. He was disgusted with _Sylvanas_ actions for a while, who as it turns out, did not care about the Horde at all. Her being a genocidal psychopath made him rebell against her and her supporters. Stopping her from using Derek in a horrifying plot that made even some of her Forsaken uncomfortable was just the last spark. Just like Saurfang he wanted the Horde to be noble and honorable, while Sylvanas was just using it to kill as many people as possible. If you still can't see this you must have closed eyes and ears during the last month of cutscenes to try to justify your irrational hatred towards Baine.

Oh look another Alliance stan defending Baine by trashing a character I don't care about to begin with...

Her hurting Derek, a relative of one of his human masters made him rebel, not the blighting of Tauren.

Sylvanas broke no vows. Derek was raised as a weapon and Forsaken have enslaved other undead for years.

Baine cares nothing about the Horde, if he did he wouldn't let his people be slaughtered and wouldn't do nothing when the Alliance massacres tauren.

Yes, but did you know that Baine also orchestrated the monstrous unforgivable attack in Stormheim? He is behind most Alliance attacks really. The Illuminati told me.
...

Baine's reaction towards Taurajo and his condemning of all tauren who fought back is literally on WoWpedia, dude.

Yes, you are obviously ignoring everything else just to justify your world view. Like how Baine criticized Sylvanas as early as during the Siege of the Undercity, probably still because of Derek, he was still dead then but it is possible!!!
Did you know that Baine also personally fired the cannons on board of the Skyfire in Stormheim and started the war? Well, Baine and Saurfang together actually, they are known for their intrigues.

Strawmanning again, when I have sources and you have nothing.

With allies like Garrosh, Gallywix, and Sylvanas that is really a surprise for you? \

It was Bloodhilt, an orc sent by Garrosh that saved the tauren when they were being sieged by an invading army of Alliance soldiers trying to break into Mulgore whilst Baine was on his ass. Garrosh did more for both the tauren and the allies of the Horde then Baine ever did in his life. Look at all the times, Baine has killed members of the Horde with no remorse, yet he has always thrown a fit whenever he has killed any humans.

Not to mention that the Horde has betrayed Baine before. Like when Cairne challenged Garrosh to Mak'gora and got killed by poison (not applied by Garrosh sure), what did the Horde do to avenge their murdered leader?

Cairne challenged him to an official death duel over a false accusation(that Garrosh had slaughtered neutral druids), not that Cairne knew at the time. Him dying on a duel was legal and Garrosh felt bad for it even before he found it Magatha poisoned his axe; noting in the shattering that Cairne was always a brave warrior of the Horde.

Not a thing. Garrosh was happy to wait out the Tauren civil war and see which side would win. It was Jaina personally that gave Baine funds to win against Magatha. I assume you are ignoring that bit as well. Of course he bloody well considers her a friend, she saved him, when the Horde ignored his pleas.

Kodo crap, we just discussed it and Baine never went to anyone from the Horde for Help, instead he immediately went to the Alliance. Garrosh never had the chance to react to the civil war and we know he hated Magatha.

He just feels that sometimes the Horde has to be protected from itself, and considering how you and many others close your eyes as to not be disturbed in the deluisons you created for yourself I am absolutely with him.

The delusional applies only to you for saying someone who;
* did nothing when his people were slaughtered.
* Gave out the same punishment that he gave to his father's killers to the tauren defending themselves.
* Broken the Horde vow promising members would always have a right to self defense.
* Said the Alliance were more trustworthy then Horde.
* Repeatedly killed Horde soldiers with no remorse.
* Never fought Alliance of his free will.
* Mailed Bodyparts to leaders of the Alliance during a time of war.
* Mistrusts orcs and prefers humans.
* Asked the daughter of a King just killed by the Alliance to surrender to the Alliance.

Is somehow a Horde patriot even though all he has done his entire life but spit on the Horde and everything it stands for.

Go figure an Alliance stan is stands for the Alliance puppet.

The Horde does no longer seem to be able to discern right from wrong (Hint: Genocide = Wrong), so I am very uncomfortable leaving it alone. I throughly WISH the Alliance would establish an occupation to watch out that the Horde is not just running after the next psychopath that shouts "For the Horde"... but I expect too much.

Yeah, I get you hate the Horde, hence you are supporting a member of the Horde in name only who hates the Horde and is an Alliance puppet.

Essentially your support just proves why Baine sucks.

[Soon-TM]

As @Yoshingo already said...it doesn't remain to be seen. The Horde is forming a leadership council and there are no Alliance leaders on it.

Thrall, Baine, and likely Calia being there say otherwise. The former two are effectively Alliance by choice, sharing the same ideals and MO's than Anduin. And the latter was Alliance until very recently - unless you want to argue that being close friends to Anduin isn't a big deal.

[Katchii]

Thrall, Baine, and likely Calia being there say otherwise. The former two are effectively Alliance by choice, sharing the same ideals and MO's than Anduin. And the latter was Alliance until very recently - unless you want to argue that being close friends to Anduin isn't a big deal.

But they're not Alliance. Friends with and former Alliance are not the same thing as current Alliance.

With the direction the narrative is going it makes sense that the leadership across both factions would have sympathizers for the other faction among them, but that doesn't mean the opposing faction is making leadership decisions for the other.

[Feanoro]

But they're not Alliance. Friends with and former Alliance are not the same thing as current Alliance.

With the direction the narrative is going it makes sense that the leadership across both factions would have sympathizers for the other faction among them, but that doesn't mean the opposing faction is making leadership decisions for the other.

Emphasis to point out that Blood Elves and Forsaken both should be considered entire races of Alliance sympathizers/puppets/insult du jour by the "logic" we've been seeing here from some posters. Once Alliance, always Alliance, rite guiz?

[Soon-TM]

Emphasis to point out that Blood Elves and Forsaken both should be considered entire races of Alliance sympathizers/puppets/insult du jour by the "logic" we've been seeing here from some posters. Once Alliance, always Alliance, rite guiz?

Comparing the Forsaken or the BEs' situation with Calia's is either stupid or disingenuous. The Forsaken haven't been members of the Alliance in the last >=15 years, not to mention that Alliance had a strict kill-on-sight policy until very recently. BEs are in a similar situation, having left the Alliance since BC at least, and !@#&ed over in the ass by Jaina when they tried to rejoin.

On the other hand, Calia was Alliance until very recently - until BtS, to be more precise. No, her being in the Priest class hall didn't make her neutral, much like e.g. Liadrin isn't neutral either, even if she was in the Pally class hall.

As for Thrall and Baine, they may be formally Horde, but they have never opposed the Alliance in any significant measure, even when their respective peoples were under direct Alliance attack. But no, they've pretty much always gone for appeasement instead. But I don't want to go in any more details, since @Super Dickmann has already done so in depth.

[wushootaki]

The Horde has never really hit its mark in WoW imo. In WarCraft 3 they were suppose to be "noble savages" who were trying to find a new place in the world. But even Vanilla WoW did a pretty shitty job portraying that as the Horde was almost always the aggressor or committing despicable acts.

Fast forward through many expansions and we have gone through many iterations on the Horde. And now in BfA in the Horde has gone from pretty much an morally black faction to one completely purged and wholesome. But it still feels like it misses the mark on what the Horde is suppose to be.

What? Did you even play classic/vanilla? The alliance are the de facto aggressors with Forsaken exception.

Both Durotar and Mulgore are being invaded by Allianace friendly npcs (Read this, GREEN TO THE PLAYER) - Kul Tiras marines that followed the Horde across the seas, and Dwarves that are disturbing Tauren burial grounds.

This is directly hostile actions.

The earliest a Alliance player faces alliance threat is lvl 5. But the earliest Alliance face a Horde threat is much later.

Know those frostmane trolls in Coldridge Valley? Well guess what? They are trolls, but not horde. They are not horde friendly npcs and Horde can attack them. The same goes for the Dragonmaw in Wetlands --- again not Horde faction, and Horde players can attack them.

The earliest a Horde NPC attacks alliance is either in Darkshore (Forsaken) or Hillsbrad (again Forsaken). The earliest an Orc/Troll/Tauren npc is found to be hostile to Horde is mid 30s in Arathi Highlands.

The Horde have very little to do with the Alliance (Forsaken withstanding) before that. You seem to have just drank the Alliance racism kool-aid and thought "Orc! IT MUST BE HORDE"

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Thrall, Baine, and likely Calia being there say otherwise. The former two are effectively Alliance by choice, sharing the same ideals and MO's than Anduin. And the latter was Alliance until very recently - unless you want to argue that being close friends to Anduin isn't a big deal.

Cali has never been alliance they go out of there way to point that out in before the storm. Calling her alliance because she’s friend with anduin is like calling wrathion alliance.

- - - Updated - - -

What? Did you even play classic/vanilla? The alliance are the de facto aggressors with Forsaken exception.

Both Durotar and Mulgore are being invaded by Allianace friendly npcs (Read this, GREEN TO THE PLAYER) - Kul Tiras marines that followed the Horde across the seas, and Dwarves that are disturbing Tauren burial grounds.

This is directly hostile actions.

The earliest a Alliance player faces alliance threat is lvl 5. But the earliest Alliance face a Horde threat is much later.

Know those frostmane trolls in Coldridge Valley? Well guess what? They are trolls, but not horde. They are not horde friendly npcs and Horde can attack them. The same goes for the Dragonmaw in Wetlands --- again not Horde faction, and Horde players can attack them.

The earliest a Horde NPC attacks alliance is either in Darkshore (Forsaken) or Hillsbrad (again Forsaken). The earliest an Orc/Troll/Tauren npc is found to be hostile to Horde is mid 30s in Arathi Highlands.

The Horde have very little to do with the Alliance (Forsaken withstanding) before that. You seem to have just drank the Alliance racism kool-aid and thought "Orc! IT MUST BE HORDE"

Your putting to much thought into game mechanics. I’m not saying your wrong but just because an npc is red or green doesn’t mean it works that way in the lore.

[Soon-TM]

Cali has never been alliance they go out of there way to point that out in before the storm. Calling her alliance because she’s friend with anduin is like calling wrathion alliance.

Ok, Calia isn't Alliance, but she's quite close nevertheless. The very fact that Golden had to go out of her way to point it out is because otherwise Calia could easily be mistaken by a sister to Anduin or something, that's how close they are.

Btw Wrathion did have more than a couple of... um, misunderstandings with Anduin. Much unlike Calia.

[Raisei]

Oh look another Alliance stan defending Baine by trashing a character I don't care about to begin with...

Her hurting Derek, a relative of one of his human masters made him rebel, not the blighting of Tauren.

Sylvanas broke no vows. Derek was raised as a weapon and Forsaken have enslaved other undead for years.

This is simply wrong. If you had followed the plot of BFA you knew that Baine was very unhappy with basically everything Sylvanas did and he only stuck around because he rightly feared that the other Tauren would pay the price if he openly rebelled like Saurfang. It`s pretty clear he DOES care for his people, he wanted to prevent more war BECAUSE he cares about them not being send into a pointless war.

But, I see you made up your head canon, probably beyond any reasonable argument at this point.

Strawmanning again, when I have sources and you have nothing.

I did not think I had to give you a source for an ingame cutscene from this expansion..., you do play this game yes? It literally happened right before Anduin, Genn, Jaina and Alleria confront Sylvanas in the old Lordaeronian throne room. Baine accuses Sylvanas of sacrificing Saurfang and she tells him worry about his own people, meaning that she will take out his insubordnation on them.

It was Bloodhilt, an orc sent by Garrosh that saved the tauren when they were being sieged by an invading army of Alliance soldiers trying to break into Mulgore whilst Baine was on his ass. Garrosh did more for both the tauren and the allies of the Horde then Baine ever did in his life. Look at all the times, Baine has killed members of the Horde with no remorse, yet he has always thrown a fit whenever he has killed any humans.

Garrosh did... what? I gape in awe at your ability to twist reality. I am not in the mood to count up all the crimes Garrosh commited against the Horde. He clearly stated in Warcrimes that he did not give a crap about anyone non-orc and would have gladly killed or exiled them all to make his own pure orc Horde.

Kodo crap, we just discussed it and Baine never went to anyone from the Horde for Help, instead he immediately went to the Alliance. Garrosh never had the chance to react to the civil war and we know he hated Magatha.

And another poster has already shown your quote being completely out of context. Baine saw Garrosh with Magatha so he had to assume they were together in the killing of his father. Of course he doesn't trust him.

The delusional applies only to you for saying someone who;
* did nothing when his people were slaughtered.
* Gave out the same punishment that he gave to his father's killers to the tauren defending themselves.
* Broken the Horde vow promising members would always have a right to self defense.
* Said the Alliance were more trustworthy then Horde.
* Repeatedly killed Horde soldiers with no remorse.
* Never fought Alliance of his free will.
* Mailed Bodyparts to leaders of the Alliance during a time of war.
* Mistrusts orcs and prefers humans.
* Asked the daughter of a King just killed by the Alliance to surrender to the Alliance.

Is somehow a Horde patriot even though all he has done his entire life but spit on the Horde and everything it stands for.

Go figure an Alliance stan is stands for the Alliance puppet.

Well, you just repeat your entire tirade of wrong accusation, doesn't make them anymore true, but I think it is pointless to discuss this with you anymore. You seem to need Baine as a scapegoat for the current state of the Horde. Have fun with that.

Yeah, I get you hate the Horde, hence you are supporting a member of the Horde in name only who hates the Horde and is an Alliance puppet.

Essentially your support just proves why Baine sucks.

Funny. Considering I am constantly on the site of those defending the Horde leadership you still have, Baine, Thrall, previously Saurfang, Thal'ryssa, while you can do nothing but whine over them and wish your old Warchiefs that HATED your Horde back, i.e. Garrosh and Sylvanas. Weird, one could almost say that I am speaking up FOR the Horde survival, while you just want it destroyed.

Ah well, you do enjoy your head canon.