Preach drops some unexpected and well-articulated truth bombs

[Doffen]

He changed his mind on Sephuz because they buffed it later. Also, for the most part, he still shat on Legion but still thought Legion clearly outclassed BFA on such a high level because BFA is more or less a continuation on Legion systems but much worse. That's the whole point of his negativity towards it.



You people are mean. Nonfrens indeed! >.<

How I see it, isn't it great for preach that he does what he needs to do to get views? Even if WoW sub-numbers goes down, his sub-number goes up

I don't think Preach is silly, I have enjoyed his movies the last few years. After he said that classic is so good because it is so slow that you could see what each ability did to the target, but then just before made a video on how BfA is bad because gameplay is too slow(when its much faster and got more pace than in classic) he just lost all credibility to me.

[KaPe]

What he and you who blindly defend him continually fail to grasp is that you are not the only people who play the game. Ther aere peope that disagree with you and like things as is, or want changes that are different from the one you want.

It's one thing to disagree with someone. It's entirely different thing to "disagree" with something they didn't even watch, by building a strawman and tearing it down. I mean, fuck, just check the thread.

"Pff, what is this guy, he should get laid!"
"He has wife and kid..."
"Well then, he should take care of them instead of playing WoW" (careful you don't trip while moving those goalposts!)

Or any other post that clearly proves they didn't watch even a single second of that video and just immediately rushed to shit on it. It's why I don't really see the point in linking his videos/opinions on forums. The threads rarely contain any meaningful discussion and are more about dumping on the person.

[rrayy]

It's one thing to disagree with someone. It's entirely different thing to "disagree" with something they didn't even watch, by building a strawman and tearing it down. I mean, fuck, just check the thread.

"Pff, what is this guy, he should get laid!"
"He has wife and kid..."
"Well then, he should take care of them instead of playing WoW" (careful you don't trip while moving those goalposts!)

Or any other post that clearly proves they didn't watch even a single second of that video and just immediately rushed to shit on it. It's why I don't really see the point in linking his videos/opinions on forums. The threads rarely contain any meaningful discussion and are more about dumping on the person.

SOrry, I am not going to bother watching what your hero puts out because he is doing nothing more than saying what you want to hear to get clicks on his video and money in his pocket. The fanboys aren't smart enough to realize that they are a means to and end for goofs like him. And that goes for all Youtube streamers.

[rohoz]

ya no super casual guild cares ... but u won't believe how many semi hardcore/hardcore guilds require you to have that ... besides someone liking titanforging yikes titanforging kills excitemend for items how can one like it

Who cares about casualcore guilds? My guild is literally in the top 50 US and we don't do that shit. Anyway stay parroting other people's opinion

[KaPe]

SOrry, I am not going to bother watching what your hero puts out because he is doing nothing more than saying what you want to hear to get clicks on his video and money in his pocket. The fanboys aren't smart enough to realize that they are a means to and end for goofs like him. And that goes for all Youtube streamers.

The natural reaction to "not bothering with something" is to also not comment on it. I know people who disagree with Preach and that's that, they don't feel the need to quickly announce it on forums - while also insulting those who do. But you do you, continue "not bothering".

[Huzzaa]

It's one thing to disagree with someone. It's entirely different thing to "disagree" with something they didn't even watch, by building a strawman and tearing it down. I mean, fuck, just check the thread.

"Pff, what is this guy, he should get laid!"
"He has wife and kid..."
"Well then, he should take care of them instead of playing WoW" (careful you don't trip while moving those goalposts!)

Or any other post that clearly proves they didn't watch even a single second of that video and just immediately rushed to shit on it. It's why I don't really see the point in linking his videos/opinions on forums. The threads rarely contain any meaningful discussion and are more about dumping on the person.

Yeah, I've come to a similar conclusion.

The strawmanning is rampant. And the fake-argument winning is real.

It's amazing how many here seem to post just purely out of the need to bash him instead of actually hearing out what he has to say. But of'course, it makes sense if you don't like the person. But whatever.

I wholely agree with Preach myself. He has a point, and he's right.

Those arguments of:

"What he and you who blindly defend him continually fail to grasp is that you are not the only people who play the game. Ther aere peope that disagree with you and like things as is, or want changes that are different from the one you want."

Don't automatically mean that you're suddenly the representative of the whole "the rest of the people" either.

And to be fair, many of these posts are so damn dumb to begin with...

Example:

Someone rambling on for 30 minutes with negative statements about Blizzard and World of Warcraft is not unexpected. Sorry, I don't have anything in common with someone who has "outrage" and "furious anger" about the state of a video game.

From page 1, like wt#. Furious anger? And many more like that. It's amazing to me how the majority on the forums seem to be some angry manchilds trying to defend their mediocrity for their RNG loot from a questmob. (See, I can string BS too)

Let's take another one:

Who is this and literally why should I care what this old man has to say about a kids game?

Game is no longer a kids game for like, ages. I haven't met anyone under 20 for years. It's mostly my own generation in their mid 20s, 30s now. But this is anecdotal, maybe he's right, although very doubtful. But beyond that, another stupid argument, that immediately delved into name calling.(Old man, kids game)

Let's see some more:

If Preach had his way there would be no leveling, quests, story, pvp, outdoor content, nothing. Only raids.

On page 2.
Complete misrepresentation of the man. Anyone who knows him and has watched his videos, knows that this is not what he means. But this is a classic case of a strawman really. He takes something that was never meant literally, strings it up from a 2 or 3 sentence context somewhere in the video, and then continues to argument against this new argument(that was never constructed) and beats it with "ease" in his mind. Showing us all, how dumb he really is.

There are so many of these examples...

[Mardux]

Yeah, I've come to a similar conclusion.

The strawmanning is rampant. And the fake-argument winning is real.

It's amazing how many here seem to post just purely out of the need to bash him instead of actually hearing out what he has to say. But of'course, it makes sense if you don't like the person. But whatever.

I wholely agree with Preach myself. He has a point, and he's right.

Those arguments of:



Don't automatically mean that you're suddenly the representative of the whole "the rest of the people" either.

And to be fair, many of these posts are so damn dumb to begin with...

Example:


From page 1, like wt#. Furious anger? And many more like that. It's amazing to me how the majority on the forums seem to be some angry manchilds trying to defend their mediocrity for their RNG loot from a questmob. (See, I can string BS too)

Let's take another one:


Game is no longer a kids game for like, ages. I haven't met anyone under 20 for years. It's mostly my own generation in their mid 20s, 30s now. But this is anecdotal, maybe he's right, although very doubtful. But beyond that, another stupid argument, that immediately delved into name calling.(Old man, kids game)

Let's see some more:

On page 2.
Complete misrepresentation of the man. Anyone who knows him and has watched his videos, knows that this is not what he means. But this is a classic case of a strawman really. He takes something that was never meant literally, strings it up from a 2 or 3 sentence context somewhere in the video, and then continues to argument against this new argument(that was never constructed) and beats it with "ease" in his mind. Showing us all, how dumb he really is.

There are so many of these examples...

"It's amazing" how you go from bashing people about strawmanning (which is understandable) almost straight to presenting your own strawman. But that's another thing that's rampant on here, hypocrisy.

[schwank05]

Sometimes I just want gear to be rare, and that's it. I don't want titanforging, corrupted, benthic, azerite, all this crap.

There's a dozen different currencies for each expansion instead of just a handful at max level. I'd rather log on, play for 2-3 hours, and log off than have too much to do and never feel like I can take a break. That's the unfortunate state of BFA, and a huge reason why I don't even bother with the BFA content.

I want gear to be rare and matter we need to go back to the days of even a few pieces in Early Wrath that were good through the entire Xpac. I want each raid tier to matter and for the first tier to be relevant the entire xpac like Vanilla and BC. I don't want to be able to obtain raid epics from doing a world quest. Raid gear should come from Raids and the Dungeon Gear should matter like in Classic.

[Huzzaa]

"It's amazing" how you go from bashing people about strawmanning (which is understandable) almost straight to presenting your own strawman. But that's another thing that's rampant on here, hypocrisy.

Do bring out that example. Otherwise your point is moot.

Where is the hypocrisy?

[apelsinjuice]

Someone rambling on for 30 minutes with negative statements about Blizzard and World of Warcraft is not unexpected. Sorry, I don't have anything in common with someone who has "outrage" and "furious anger" about the state of a video game.

while still playing it every single day on stream/youtube

[rohoz]

I want gear to be rare and matter we need to go back to the days of even a few pieces in Early Wrath that were good through the entire Xpac. I want each raid tier to matter and for the first tier to be relevant the entire xpac like Vanilla and BC. I don't want to be able to obtain raid epics from doing a world quest. Raid gear should come from Raids and the Dungeon Gear should matter like in Classic.

then go play classic

[Monoxide]

The fact that retail still exists fifteen years later -- with a subscription, no less -- is all the proof I need to say that Blizzard made the right calls. Furthermore, using sub levels to support an argument is a weak stance to begin with since you have no way of knowing the reasons why people quit or which features players engaged with the most. This is the internal data that Blizzard uses to make design decisions and while I won't sit here and tell you that I agree with 100% of the directions they took, I am least not dense enough to support my argument with incomplete data.

I can't tell if you're trolling or just hoping to win an award for being a contrarian. You can't play both sides here. If you're going to sit there and act like losing more than half their subs isn't because of poor design decisions, then I'm going to sit here and pretend like getting to 12M subs wasn't because of good design decisions and instead was just dumb luck.

It's not like the game plateaued at 12M, no, it peaked at 12M and then started a sharp decline one expansion after another until Blizzard stopped reporting official sub counts.

Tell me, in your heart of hearts, do you honestly believe that if the game was thriving and sub counts were up, that Blizzard would hide that data? For example, lets use the upcoming (semi) confirmed Expansion Shadowlands. Lets pretend that it's a huge success, Blizzard just knocks it out of the fucking park and subs are at 15M. You don't think Blizzard would announce that? Of course they would. Yet the official sub counts have remained hidden for the last 4 years, with their last reported official count being 5.5M.

Look at other sub games in the genre. We know they don't come close to WoW's peak, or even WoW's official low of 5.5M, and they're still sub games. You don't need a huge playerbase to sustain a subscription based game, so you using the fact that WoW still exists in a sub model is NOT evidence that their design philosophy is good or that the game is doing well.

Yeah, we're dealing with incomplete data, and we will ALWAYS be dealing with incomplete data, so if you're going to use the fact that the data is incomplete to validate your argument and invalidate mine, there's no point in discussing it further. You can't demonstrate that having a sub automatically means success, and I can't demonstrate that losing half your subs and then hiding your sub numbers means failure (lol?).

Let me ask you this instead and if you reply to this comment please don't skip over this specific question: What information could be presented to you that would change your mind and lead you to believe Blizzard has made design philosophy decisions that have hurt the game dramatically? I'm guessing there's nothing at all that would change your mind beyond things that can't/won't ever happen, such as Blizzard admitting "We had a really bad design philosophy" or Blizzard releasing ALL of their internal data. Neither of which will *ever* happen, so I wonder, is this just like a religion to you? Just blind faith?

[BeepBoo]

People just want to go back to "bis lists"

which is actually the most stupid thing ever.

Why exactly? I don't play the game just to chase gear. I play it for the same reason I play basketball with my friends: the reward of playing the game itself is enough to keep me doing it (which is why I only do the parts that are actually fun to play, and not the parts that necessarily give me the best rewards).

[rohoz]

Why exactly? I don't play the game just to chase gear. I play it for the same reason I play basketball with my friends: the reward of playing the game itself is enough to keep me doing it (which is why I only do the parts that are actually fun to play, and not the parts that necessarily give me the best rewards).

Gonna go out on a limb and say that you also haven't played in a while because stat weights are fluid and what gear is best changes on what kinda content you're currently doing.

it's not vanilla where A>B>C in every situation. BiS literally doesnt even exist as a concept because 1) things arent tank and spank and 2) people know more now than what they did then.

BiS lists were math applied to the loot table. Simming is the evolution of that.

[BeepBoo]

BiS lists were math applied to the loot table. Simming is the evolution of that.

If they went back to tier sets with good bonuses, BIS lists would still exist and secondary stat distros wouldn't matter as much, so the gear lists likely wouldn't change between fights.

[rohoz]

If they went back to tier sets with good bonuses, BIS lists would still exist and secondary stat distros wouldn't matter as much, so the gear lists likely wouldn't change between fights.

Yeah but why would you go back to an arcane system with less options and less impact other than to please people like you, stuck in the past?

And half of the tier sets in game were absolute trash. Could be more than half, tbh.

[brt2pp]

I can't tell if you're trolling or just hoping to win an award for being a contrarian. You can't play both sides here. If you're going to sit there and act like losing more than half their subs isn't because of poor design decisions, then I'm going to sit here and pretend like getting to 12M subs wasn't because of good design decisions and instead was just dumb luck.

both those statements are true, wow exploaded not because of some amazing decisions, but because it, by sheer chance, became cultural phenomenon(just like lol,fortnite,pubg etc.) , i mean , yes for the time classic was a decent game, but not nearly good enough to gain 6m subscribers. also wow hasn't lost it's playerbase because of bad design decisions, but because they were changing the game. look at call of duty, look at any long lasting franchise, those that still sell well barely changed since their 1st inception while wow team had balls to experiment. The changes weren't all bad, but inevitably when you bring changes those changes will be liked by some people, and disliked by others, gaining you net loss with each change no matter how good. changes to the game doesn't bring new players in, just makes them leave. but i still think those changes were necessary for the game not to become stale meme that cod became, where you can literally go 12 years back to mw orginal and barely feel any diffrence. Also i still think primary couse of loss of playerbase is age of the game, not gameplay

[BeepBoo]

Because there is no choice? There are still BIS lists, it's just so riddled behind RNG you'll basically never get it unless you win the lotto. So you sim every little ilvl upgrade to see if it's worth it. Still ultimately no choice if you're chasing top performance.

Also, I don't ever recall a time where, once you got back to full clearing the highest difficulty you typically do, any current tier set wasn't utilized by everyone.
Would people upgrade from their mythic tier set from a previous tier with the LFR versions of a new tier? Not necessarily. But they would still switch from mythic versions between the two.

Also, you mean archaic.

[Monoxide]

both those statements are true, wow exploaded not because of some amazing decisions, but because it, by sheer chance, became cultural phenomenon(just like lol,fortnite,pubg etc.) , i mean , yes for the time classic was a decent game, but not nearly good enough to gain 6m subscribers. also wow hasn't lost it's playerbase because of bad design decisions, but because they were changing the game. look at call of duty, look at any long lasting franchise, those that still sell well barely changed since their 1st inception while wow team had balls to experiment. The changes weren't all bad, but inevitably when you bring changes those changes will be liked by some people, and disliked by others, gaining you net loss with each change no matter how good. changes to the game doesn't bring new players in, just makes them leave. but i still think those changes were necessary for the game not to become stale meme that cod became, where you can literally go 12 years back to mw orginal and barely feel any diffrence. Also i still think primary couse of loss of playerbase is age of the game, not gameplay

You're incorrect, saying its' success was dumb luck would mean that it did well once, not that it did well three times in a row and then failed miserably each iteration after that.

Furthermore, you actually made a really bad point by bringing up CoD, and it leads me to believe you don't actually keep up with the game year to year. Black Ops 4 had a terrible pre launch because they basically made it mandatory for you buy the DLC for the games entire lifespan before the game came out, and you weren't allowed to buy it in chunks. What I mean is, previously they'd release 4 DLC packs at $15/each or you could usually buy them all at once for $50. Black Ops 4 made it so you couldn't just buy the ones you wanted and if you already pre-ordered the game, you had to cancel your pre-order and re-purchase the pre-order for the game+DLC in order to have the DLC. It was received VERY poorly, and I will direct you to this article for context on what the newest CoD has planned (hint: they got rid of the seasonal DLC entirely): https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...ll-it-fund-dlc

Guess what? The newest CoD is their best selling one in 6 years. Design decisions do impact whether or not people buy your game.

[BeepBoo]

Guess what? The newest CoD is their best selling one in 6 years. Design decisions do impact whether or not people buy your game.

In addition, while people meme on CoD, clearly all that a game with good gameplay needs is a bunch of new areas and environments to experience that same gameplay loop in, and some updates to graphics/ui when it becomes necessary. Don't fix what ain't broken.