Preach drops some unexpected and well-articulated truth bombs

[Relapses]

Guess what? The newest CoD is their best selling one in 6 years. Design decisions do impact whether or not people buy your game.

This is another weak statement because it assumes that gaming trends haven't changed at all in the fifteen years that WoW's been around. FPS -- and shooters in general -- are more popular now than they ever have been in the past. MMOs, on the other hand, simply aren't. (There have been multiple triple-A shooters in the last five years. MMOs? You've got WoW and... that's pretty much it.)

It's a tough pill to swallow but some of WoW's popularity was due to it being the right game at the right time for the right audience. Yes, some of its popularity was due to its design but you can't credit 100% of its success solely to its design then turn around and attribute 100% of the resulting drop off with "worse design choices." The equation simply isn't that simple. Like I said in my initial response to you, we would have to know the exact reason every player quit WoW in order to trend design choices with subsequent subscriber losses. We never will know this information but we do have firsthand accounts from game developers who have seen this data and unsurprisingly design changes are pretty low on the list of reasons people really quit the game.

[Kickbuttmario]

lol what
Are you saying that going from 10k to 20k hits isn't noticeable, and you need an addon to tell you that? lmao

Not an addon. It's just not something that is fun visually, from what I see. I agree with Preach completely on this one because when I am playing classic, I can see every spell and hit that goes on and not a cluster of mobs that do this and that.

Also, I would like to refute your point entirely since it doesn't really have anything to do with proving or disproving Preach's point, or even accusing him of not being able to be taken seriously. His point is extremely valid. I thought you were trying to point out a hypocrisy and the only thing I have seen him really go hypocritical on was the whole level scaling thing where all mobs at 110 during Legion would scale with your ilvl.

Remember when 7.2 was released and Blizzard launched mobs to be more difficult via your ilvl (actually I forgot how it worked) and it got a huge uproar. Well, originally when the idea was introduced at Blizzcon 2015, Preach praised it and thought it was a good idea. Sometime later in March 2017, he got angry and denoted Blizzard for it. That's a legit point of weird hypocrisy and it made me scratch my head in awe. o.o

Either way, bullshit aside of him debating whether he should be taken seriously or not is not relevant since the point of his video is sound. And yes, the rant with him at 12:00 through 16:00 is very well done.

[MoanaLisa]

The pessimist in me thinks that Blizzard will just fuck it up somehow. They always do this. They're just too slow.

If you spend ten years teasing out all of the minor details of something it's easy to lose sight of the bigger picture. I have thought for some time that's what's going on. All detail, no grand vision of how the game will work. Blizzcon will be very interesting this year.

[Kickbuttmario]

If you spend ten years teasing out all of the minor details of something it's easy to lose sight of the bigger picture. I have thought for some time that's what's going on. All detail, no grand vision of how the game will work. Blizzcon will be very interesting this year.

I know but this has been going on for such a fucking long time. I remember when mythic was introduced, a blizz GM said they may bring back class mechanics like lock tanking or mage tanking and then it got denied further.

Like, what is going on. What exactly do they want. Most of us players would like a TBC+ expansion and that's only because we haven't had one since 2007 and it's been 5 expansions since. So what goes on at Blizzard is completely obvious. Some top tier guys at the company tell them what to do, and they do it. Next wow expansion will suck and that's it.

[rohoz]

lol what the hot fuck does a "tbc like expansion" even entail

attunements that people will cry about?
welfare gear?
1 button bm hunters and warlocks beating everyone in dps?
mu'ru?

[neocount]

There's a reason fans came back to Vanilla, and it's not just nostalgia. Some of it is just a live version of WoW with easily-defined parameters with far less hoops to go through to achieve a set goal for yourself.

I agree with Preach. The only dot-point feature I want to see in the next expansion's preview trailer is:

• We're removing all the shit you hate.

Then I'd say, keep playing Vanilla.

I played Vanilla when it came out, and of course, with many of my guide, attempted to play it again for the sake of nostalgia.

Within an hour of playing it, I was nodding off in my chair. Sorry, but Vanilla is just not engaging or fun for me. I'm happy so many other people are enjoying it and have no problem with them continuing to do so. It's just not for me.

Retail is fine, for me.

[Kickbuttmario]

lol what the hot fuck does a "tbc like expansion" even entail

attunements that people will cry about?
welfare gear?
1 button bm hunters and warlocks beating everyone in dps?
mu'ru?

TBC was vanilla but more improved in someways. A TBC+ will be a TBC but more improved.

Quit being lowiq. There are plenty of ways to get it done. We haven't had tier progression since 2008 and had tier skips and content not promoted anymore for like 10 years.

[Relapses]

TBC was vanilla but more improved in someways. A TBC+ will be a TBC but more improved.

Quit being lowiq. There are plenty of ways to get it done. We haven't had tier progression since 2008 and had tier skips and content not promoted anymore for like 10 years.

Care to share with the class how a TBC-like attunement process worked for WildStar?

Oh. Right.

[Kickbuttmario]

Care to share with the class how a TBC-like attunement process worked for WildStar?

Oh. Right.

Wildstar failed for an insane amount of reasons. Don't bring that shit up if you never played it. Wildstar at the beginning was a literal fucking mess. And a TBC+ game like Wildstar would never had 40 man fucking raids, or bots that could get mats then teleport to another around the world, or an actual broken AH system. There were so many problems with Wildstar. Like they also thought having a slow leveling system with a fast paced combat system unlike WoW would work too. It was so dreadful that game. They also launched wow-tokens (wildstar tokens), realm transfers, and a mega server like with 2 months of release.

[rohoz]

TBC was vanilla but more improved in someways. A TBC+ will be a TBC but more improved.

Quit being lowiq. There are plenty of ways to get it done. We haven't had tier progression since 2008 and had tier skips and content not promoted anymore for like 10 years.

Sooooo you're unable to articulate eh? word, thought as much.

[Kickbuttmario]

Sooooo you're unable to articulate eh? word, thought as much.

Bruh. There is no need for me to explain this. There are so many ways they could've done it still and it would've been fine. They always swing the pendulum too far or too little.

[rohoz]

Bruh. There is no need for me to explain this. There are so many ways they could've done it still and it would've been fine. They always swing the pendulum too far or too little.

TBC was still hot dogshit and there's many many failings.

So you wanna articulate on how you would make it better? Or naw? Unable to?

[Relapses]

Wildstar failed for an insane amount of reasons. Don't bring that shit up if you never played it. Wildstar at the beginning was a literal fucking mess. And a TBC+ game like Wildstar would never had 40 man fucking raids, or bots that could get mats then teleport to another around the world, or an actual broken AH system. There were so many problems with Wildstar. Like they also thought having a slow leveling system with a fast paced combat system unlike WoW would work too. It was so dreadful that game. They also launched wow-tokens (wildstar tokens), realm transfers, and a mega server like with 2 months of release.

WildStar's entire draw was that it was a "return to hardcore MMO design." A pitch that it never delivered on because there isn't a fucking market for such a MMO when WoW is still around. WoW is a casual game and it's absolutely mind-boggling that there are people like you who actually think Blizzard will just say, "Hey guys, remember the decade+ we've designed the game around casual players? Yeah. Fuck those guys. We're going the opposite direction now because we need to appease the 1% of the 1%."

[Doffen]

Still waiting for that retail video. Just gonna throw around insults or actually come with something meaningful?

You can check preach's videos about BfA since the first ones came a bit over a year ago. Not sure how I insulted him, I even made a compliment about him being a good business man. I'll try go find the gcd video so you get what I talk about.

[Kickbuttmario]

TBC was still hot dogshit and there's many many failings.

So you wanna articulate on how you would make it better? Or naw? Unable to?

Since we're looking at it from a 2008 example:

An example could be to have made raids 10/20 from the start or all together 15 man. Make raids at beginning with rep tied to raid, lots of heroic dungeons that drop tokens (maybe mythic if needed), and made an upgrade gear system that can only be earned by killing bosses that drop tokens as well. Tokens give out gear that are raid level quality but its main purpose is to help fill out options of gear, as that was its intended use.

Attunements could be like clear every heroic once.

It's okay to make more homogenization to make every class have a viable dps spec viable but nothing to like 2 mages needed for dungeons. 1 or 2 cc is good I think.

Have professions give out gear that are hard to craft but are 100% gonna be viable for an extremely long time so it will be worthy of you to keep.

Raid difficulties could be easy at start and hard at end but not ridiculous mythic dumb shit. Hardmodes from Ulduar are extremely recommended since majority of raiders who did that stuff liked it. Tier can only be dropped from raids though.

ALso dungeons and raids don't drop a lot of loot. Which helps make loot more rewarding.

Don't know how a M+ system would work.

Difference between a tbc+ and a wrath expansion was that tbc+ has never been done except somewhat in ulduar which they went awol with after the difficulty of naxx as many thought ulduar was far too hard after 3.0 and wrath began majority of problems of today.

EDIT: Not sure how to make pvp work either. Wouldn't do it wrath way either as VoA sucked.

[rohoz]

Since we're looking at it from a 2008 example:

An example could be to have made raids 10/20 from the start or all together 15 man. Make raids at beginning with rep tied to raid, lots of heroic dungeons that drop tokens (maybe mythic if needed), and made an upgrade gear system that can only be earned by killing bosses that drop tokens as well. Tokens give out gear that are raid level quality but its main purpose is to help fill out options of gear, as that was its intended use.

Attunements could be like clear every heroic once.

It's okay to make more homogenization to make every class have a viable dps spec viable but nothing to like 2 mages needed for dungeons. 1 or 2 cc is good I think.

Have professions give out gear that are hard to craft but are 100% gonna be viable for an extremely long time so it will be worthy of you to keep.

Raid difficulties could be easy at start and hard at end but not ridiculous mythic dumb shit. Hardmodes from Ulduar are extremely recommended since majority of raiders who did that stuff liked it. Tier can only be dropped from raids though.

ALso dungeons and raids don't drop a lot of loot. Which helps make loot more rewarding.

Don't know how a M+ system would work.

Difference between a tbc+ and a wrath expansion was that tbc+ has never been done except somewhat in ulduar which they went awol with after the difficulty of naxx as many thought ulduar was far too hard after 3.0 and wrath began majority of problems of today.

EDIT: Not sure how to make pvp work either. Wouldn't do it wrath way either as VoA sucked.

ah so stupid ideas all around. Good discussion.

[Doffen]

Apologies, I thought you said he (Preach) said BFA combat was too slow which made no sense.

Okay, so the reasoning as to why classic combat being slow isn't something I can articulate well enough, but just know that it makes "sense" in how the RPG works as everything else in the game is slow. BFA combat is fast but for all of the wrong reasons and that's because you can't control on how it even goes fast. It just is. Like how leveling is fast, like how raiding is fast yet not really if you're mythic, yet how gearing is fast, and of course, the rush of getting gear isn't paying off like it is in the past since everything is fast.

The combat in retail just cannot be understood and the fact that it could be understood throughout Vanilla and TBC was what made it good. You could feel your "numbers" going up. All you see in retail is your dps going up, but the numbers are kinda all over the place as due its course.

It only make sense if you like slow combat, and he clearly didn't like the gcd change because it made it slower. If you don't like slow combat then you wouldn't be okay with it in classic either. Of course, you could like both types of gameplay, one for each game and if that's the point you make, then I'll surrender. I did watch a lot of his videos tonight(thank you.. ) and you might be right, he likes it slow. But only in classic. I guess that's fair.

When it comes to numbers being all over the place a lot of it is coming from the Azerite system. Not that I care that there are numbers on the mob which is passives(that preach said was okay in one of his earliest azerite videos but somehow that is an issue now suddenly) but I wouldn't complain if they took away Gutripper and all those silly extra traits. I have a feeling that will change a bit in 9.0. Maybe he means now that it's just too much of it, and that I can get. Though I love my main, Havoc DH. Well paced, good synergy, fast gameplay. I can see it now, a DH in classic would be out of touch. I also like my Arcane Mages, just to get the other side of the scale. But still faster than classic.

I just don't agree with his sentiment of whats good in classic, to me it doesn't make much sense. But then again, we can't all agree.

[Kickbuttmario]

ah so stupid ideas all around. Good discussion.

Bully. A nonfren indeed! :c

[Doffen]

lol what the hot fuck does a "tbc like expansion" even entail

attunements that people will cry about?
welfare gear?
1 button bm hunters and warlocks beating everyone in dps?
mu'ru?

I was a BM(acro) Hunter in Sunwell. Loved it. I would love a TBC expansion. If it came 10 years ago. Instead we got WotLK with too easy raiding. Shit happened.

Even though I love the nostalgia of attunements, it's good we don't have them anymore. Small attunements like Court of Stars/The Arcway in Legion is okay, and that was a small reminder of TBC(I really really loved TBC, if you can't tell)

[rohoz]

I was a BM(acro) Hunter in Sunwell. Loved it. I would love a TBC expansion. If it came 10 years ago. Instead we got WotLK with too easy raiding. Shit happened.

Even though I love the nostalgia of attunements, it's good we don't have them anymore. Small attunements like Court of Stars/The Arcway in Legion is okay, and that was a small reminder of TBC(I really really loved TBC, if you can't tell)

LOL do you remember how much fucking crying there was on these forums for arcway/court of stars attunes? hahahahahaha