Shadowlands paladin changes

[Harbour]

Looking at how they changed Night Fae Aura into Blessing and Venthyr covenant abilities, it feels like Paladin's Covenant Abilities were the afterthoughs Blizzard didnt care to go with properly.

Like "Well, lets make HS/Judgment and AS but on 5 targets, uhhh, and then big Consecration, and then some Hammers, and some Aura, well, shit, Blessing. Okay thats fine, move on to the next class".

And other classes got cool and unique HPS/DPS and utility buffs.

[Gallahadd]

Like "Well, lets make HS/Judgment and AS but on 5 targets.

Do we know if the Avenger's Shield from that ability bounces/proc talents?

Because if it literally just deals AS' damage to 5 targets, it's LAUGHABLY shit... but if it still bounces and procs talents, than having a potential for 25 AS hits every minute will give paladins INSANE snap threat.

[General Guderian]

Do we know if the Avenger's Shield from that ability bounces/proc talents?

Because if it literally just deals AS' damage to 5 targets, it's LAUGHABLY shit... but if it still bounces and procs talents, than having a potential for 25 AS hits every minute will give paladins INSANE snap threat.

It does fire 5 shields with bounce and silence/cc. You can see in Preach's vids for example

[Gallahadd]

It does fire 5 shields with bounce and silence/cc. You can see in Preach's vids for example

Nice, nice. I'd say that's a pretty strong freakin ability, then. Especially when combined with the shield talent.

[Recovery]

PALADIN GENERAL ( THESE ARE IDEAS/THOUGHTS, NOT EVERYTHING SHOULD BE IMPLEMENTED )

========RAID WIDE/GROUP UTILITY==========
-brez(if any1 should have it its a paladin, remember warcraft 3 paladin?)
-empowereded aura (raid/grp wide cd) - empowers ur active aura for X seconds
-buffs (see greater blessings) OR -mark of the crusader/crusaders mark - (baseline,passive - debuff similar to what monk/dh have, physical and/or magic damage taken increased by 2-3% OR increased crit chance on target by 2-3% for all group)
=====greater blessings(1 for all specs and 1 unique per spec)========
-kings(for all specs) - X% primary stats ???
-might(ret specific) - increased attack power, OR % of secondary stat OR % of highest secondary stat, OR certain stat(no procs please)
-salvation(prot or ret specific) - reduce threat generated( if threat is more of a thing )
-sanctuary(prot specific) - less damage taken by X OR redirect X damage to tank OR ???
-light(holy specific - increased healing taken by X.
-wisdom(holy specific - mana regen by X)


RETRIBUTION SPECIFIC ( THESE ARE IDEAS/THOUGHTS, NOT EVERYTHING SHOULD BE IMPLEMENTED )

CURRENT TALENTS:
========row 15===================
-zeal - meh
-righteous verdict - change it from only templar verdict to templar verdict and divine storm like the legendary cloak from legion.
-execution sentence - needs to hit much harder than templar verdict, the % increased damage is only holy and 20% is too low. make it higher % and reduce duration. would prefer for it to be very potent but have a 1min cd or even cost 5HP.
========row 25===================
-fires of justice - ok in its form.
-blade of wrath - ok, fresh flavour ideas: (procs generate +1 HP OR always crit OR burn target for X% of dmg for 6secs)(numbers need testing)
-empyrean power - looks ok(needs more testing)
========row 30===================
-fist of justice - also increases range on hammer of justice by 10yrds (keep in mind its magic=dispelable)
-repentance - instant cast,incap for 6-7sec players, 1min on npc, 1min cd (cast on rep is horrible for melee,esp dps and esp in pvp(ret has pretty low/weak cc compared to everyone else, so maybe baseline)
-blinding light - ok in its form, has its niche.
========row 35===================
-unbreakable spirit - (40-50% reduction, Shield of Vengeance def needs to be 1-1.5min cd and divine shield def needs 3min max considering how other classes/specs are looking)
-cavalier - divine steed has 2 charges AND something more for mobility(either increased duration 1-2sec OR more speed OR cant be slowed/rooted on horse OR further decrease on cd, keep in mind that crusader heart is now an aura so its not gonna give you the bonus anymore most of the time)
-eye for an eye - some kind of return % dmg OR/AND some ALL dmg reduction aswell X% depending, 1-3min cd(not only physical reduction ret is lacking mitigation, absorbtion isnt as good in a lot of situations, and bubble is on a very long cd)
========row 40===================
-divine purpose - increase proc % chance to 20% like it used to be.
-holy avenger - reduce cd to 2min. double HP generation reduced from triple(something closer to memory of lucid dreams which was very fun along side crusade for example, and the cd's match).
-seraphim - boring/unfun talent. already have inquisition. dont need another spell of the same type. leads to weird/clunky/unfun rotations. would be best replaced with some new unique ability in terms of gameplay/rotation. check talent ideas for replacement.
========row 45===================
-selfless healer - add reduced mana cost as well. and/or bump heal more with more stacks(heal felt too weak, but now we have WoG baseline)
-justicar's vengeance - should be reworked and become honor talent(replace by some word of glory modifier talent)
-healing hands - looks lackluster, (also about time you enable lay on hands in rated arena again)
========row 50===================
-sanctified wrath - looks ok, fresh ideas: (reduce cd and duration by 50% OR increase duration of avenging wrath by 25%, reduce cd of hammer of wrath inside avenging wrath by 50%)
-crusade - ok in its form, might be too weak compared to other talent choices in row. maybe add the explosion dmg per holypower spent to crusade and not sanctified wrath.
-inquisition - +20sec duration per holy power spent instead of +15.
=================================
CURRENT ABILITIES THAT NEED WORK:
-crusader strike - should hit more than auto attack!!! buff dmg
-hammer of wrath - needs higher damage to feel closer to an execute OR maybe bump execute % hp usability from 20 to 35.
-retribution aura rework or just remove it with some new aura(current one is horrible, promotes unhealthy and bad gameplay, ruins balancing, performance, rng, logs, etc)
-auras off the gcd !!!
-flash of light - heal was very minor in bfa, now its even smaller. needs a buff and better scaling throughout expac.
-word of glory - (3-5HP big insta heal(amount should be like 30-45% hp), maybe cd and charges depending)
-wake of ashes - reduce cd to 30sec, reduce the dmg buff, makes for a more fluid/fun rotation, also more controlled aoe in m+.
-consecration - maybe generates 1 HP, also probably needs something like crusader strike deals aoe damage inside it AND/OR divine storm does increased damage to targets inside it.
=================================
ADDITION IDEAS:
-purge the wicked/warrior of the light (baseline,passive - damage against undead/demons/abberations increased by X%)
-mark of the crusader/crusaders mark - (baseline,passive - debuff similar to what monk/dh have, physical and/or magic damage taken increased by 2-3% OR increased crit chance on target by 2-3% for all group) OR -sanctity aura (replace retribution aura ,2%-3% more dmg whole grp)
-pursuit of justice (baseline,passive - increased 15% mov.speed)
=================================
TALENT IDEAS:
-divine righteousness (talent, if Divine Storm hits X or more targets the next Divine Storm within X seconds costs 1 less holy power).
-holy wrath - (talent, increase usability to 35% hp for hammer of wrath OR hammer of wrath always crits OR generates more HP OR procs for usability on hammer of wrath)
-avengers might (talent, every X holypower spent reduces the cd of avenging wrath by X second)(last row)
-blessing of spellwarding (talent, just like the protection one)
-consecrated pursuit (talent, consecration moves with you just like the old glyph, solves movement problems + increased damage or something)
-vengeance - (talent,passive - X holy power spent gives you a stack that increases ur dmg done and haste by X%, for X seconds, stacks up to X times)(passive inquisition if needed for passive talent in row).
=================================
HONOR TALENTS CHANGES:
-cleanse magic - (honor talent, cleanse also removes 1 magic effect. very important for ret pvp) replaces cleansing light
-long arm of the law - (honor talent, gain 45% mov.speed for 3-4seconds on judge) - replaces luminescence
-hallowed grounds (honor talent, currently holy and prot have it, add it to ret honor talents aswell since consecration is baseline now)
-justicars vengeance (honor talent, 3HP deal dmg based on dmg taken in last X window, similar to death strike from dk's, capped on X% max hp)
-templars resolve - (honor talent, on templar verdict converts x% of dmg into shield OR reduce damage taken by x% for x seconds like the old glyph)
-jurisdiction - rework/remove, needs something added to it, its lacking.
-vengeance aura - rework/remove.
-hammer of reckoning - rework/remove.

Wait a minute, so you actually think it would be okay for rets to be able to heal their teammates for insane amounts, bop them preventing all physical damage, Freedom them, Have a wall for themselves, an immunity only dispellable by one class, an instant cast incap, the ability to dispel MAGIC, which only healers should be able to do... etc as well as be able to do an entire health bar worth in damage in 3 gloabals?

Every class in the game shouldnt be able to do everything that every other class can do. Stop asking for this. lol

[Cofic]

Wait a minute, so you actually think it would be okay for rets to be able to heal their teammates for insane amounts, bop them preventing all physical damage, Freedom them, Have a wall for themselves, an immunity only dispellable by one class, an instant cast incap, the ability to dispel MAGIC, which only healers should be able to do... etc as well as be able to do an entire health bar worth in damage in 3 gloabals?

Every class in the game shouldnt be able to do everything that every other class can do. Stop asking for this. lol

You not only dont know how to read. But you dont even know what you're actually talking about. Also im gonna ask whatever i want.

[StrawberryZebra]

Nice, nice. I'd say that's a pretty strong freakin ability, then. Especially when combined with the shield talent.

I'm a bit skeptical about that. On paper, throwing a Shield at 5 enemies seems nice as an AoE interrupt for an M+ or for extra AoE burst damage. In practice, I don't think I've ever really been in a situation where I've needed that much disruptive power. Normally it's uninteruptable casts that need to be stunned that are more problematic than just regular spell casts.

Obviously things may change with Shadowlands and there may well be situations where it's useful to have. Based on BFA content, I can't really think of any situation where it would be anything more than a luxary abiilty.

[FlubberPuddy]

Well it is 20 HoPo per aura change so it's not like a Pally is gonna be switching every few seconds, no matter what you do you're going to nerf a Pally to keep them in a specific aura. If it's Ret you'll kill their DPS...if it's Holy you'll hurt their healing...if it's Prot you'll reduce their damage, threat, and defense.

They changed how Blessings of Seasons (yes it's called Blessing now not Aura). Basically you click it to switch it for an effect that last 1 min. 15 sec cd between each change.

https://www.wowhead.com/news=312525/...adowlands-alph

"Night Fae: Blessing of the Seasons

Aura of Autumn Bless your nearby party party members for 1 min, causing their cooldowns to recover 10% faster. Blessing of Seasons: Turns to Winter after use. 15 sec cooldown.

Blessing of Spring Bless your nearby party members for 1 min, increasing their healing done and healing received by 10%. Blessing of Seasons: Turns to Summer after use. 15 sec cooldown.

Blessing of Summer Bless your nearby party members for 1 min, causing their attacks to have a high chance to deal (100% of Spell power) Holy damage. Blessing of Seasons: Turns to Autumn after use. 15 sec cooldown.

Blessing of Winter Bless yourself for 1 min, reducing the movement speed of enemies within 40 yards by 20%, and their attack speed by 10%. Blessing of the Seasons: Turns to Spring after use. 15 sec cooldown.

Note: this was missing from the Blizzard blog and therefore may be unused."

May still be iterated on as it's not officially on blogpost yet. But this sounds better than the earlier iteration.

[Windash]

Not gonna lie, its looking pretty grim. Seems like they are ignoring most of the feedback(ret aura,blessings,covenants etc). No work on talents almost, with dead talents like Justicars Vengeance. Seraphim alongside Inquisition...who enjoys that gameplay...maybe if the actual buff from seraphim was something interesting...but i still dont see it. The covenant class abilities for paladin look really plain and boring, esp for some specs(divine toll,vanquishers hammer). I think the main mistake was to make the covenant abilities class specific and not spec specific. Seems that if you wanna be competetive and get invited to any groups you'll have to go night fae, and be a buff bot. Which tbh im not liking, esp because you cant just switch around like you can with talents. So you are basically stuck with it, in every format(raid,m+,pvp or anything else) unless you wanna regrind and be behind everyone. The unprunning is good and making certain talents into the baseline specs was good, but it needs more work than that. I still think its possible to change for the good, but the community needs to be more vocal about it(it happened with some specs). It also looks like they mostly listen to streamers/youtubers on feedback and even that is so-so.

[ThiagoTorres]

Shadowlands will be a dark time for retribution

[Sigxy]

Shadowlands will be a dark time for retribution

Probably gonna stay that way until a WotLK legacy server pops up (MAYBE TBC - if you're a Blood Elf anyway.) We've given them feedback for so many expansions and they don't really seem to care.

Never forget Legion's "Holy Wrath" talent and the feedback we gave them since it made an appearance in the early builds.
"Don't like it? Great, pick another talent."
"I think we can all agree it sound like a great idea..."
"We won't be changing this talent for the rest of the expansion." (Said for same patch, by the way, they changed Affliction warlock's last talent row to replace soul mirror with more damage towards targets with 20% health or less.)

[MrLachyG]

Shadowlands will be a dark time for retribution

there is still time for a re-work. let's hope that happens.

[ThiagoTorres]

Probably gonna stay that way until a WotLK legacy server pops up (MAYBE TBC - if you're a Blood Elf anyway.) We've given them feedback for so many expansions and they don't really seem to care.

Never forget Legion's "Holy Wrath" talent and the feedback we gave them since it made an appearance in the early builds.
"Don't like it? Great, pick another talent."
"I think we can all agree it sound like a great idea..."
"We won't be changing this talent for the rest of the expansion." (Said for same patch, by the way, they changed Affliction warlock's last talent row to replace soul mirror with more damage towards targets with 20% health or less.)

I agree... They dont see that will work to fix any paladin's problens till SL comes out. What they doing is working on night fae habilities to have sinergy with ret and holy paladin

- - - Updated - - -

there is still time for a re-work. let's hope that happens.

Do you really believe in that? Paladin's problens come from a long time and every beta test of every expansion since beta for wod is the same words.. "there is still time, lets wait" "is just a beta, they will fix it" I read those words for years and nothing happened

[Sigxy]

there is still time for a re-work. let's hope that happens.

The fact they removed Holy Power from Prot/Holy in Legion and they, themselves, stated "this is too clumsy so we're removing it" - and then bringing it back for them? There's your re-work for this expansion.

[ExiHext]

Something HAS to happen with Retribution. Even if they they don't fix the major issues (Inq/Seraphim/ES, Healing Hands being a rip-off of Unbreakable Spirit and unusable in rated PvP, E4E useless since two expacs, degenerate gameplay through SoV, etc, etc, etc), they at least have to change the PvP talents that won't work without Greater Blessings...they can't be that lazy, can they?

[rulk]

Still don't understand how they haven't brought back exorcism for a fucking xpac about death...but you know "blizzard".

[Kalisandra]

Having mucked around a bit on the PTR (no beta), I'm not impressed.

Three rows of utility talents, many of which suck so there's no effective choice. They should be trimmed down to two, and the remaining ones that are weak buffed to make them real choices. The remainder should be tossed out (Healing Hands) or made baseline.

Too many extra damage cooldowns and cooldown modifying effects. They'll almost certainly be stronger than the throughput choices, unless them all being on the GCD causes too much of a traffic jam when starting to burst. Of the remaining choices, which one to take is unintuitive - does Zeal look like an AoE talent to anyone? And let's face it - it's the 'AoE' talent only because the other two are complete junk outside of ST.

Then there's the increased CD of Blade of Justice, which alongside the nerf to Wake of Ashes' Holy Power output, adds another two empty GCDs per minute (assuming no Haste, but Haste doesn't fill in GCD holes, it just makes everything happen faster). I assume that Consecration is now filler for both AoE and ST fights, which feels bad given it's low damage and stationary effect. This will be even more pronounced if Empyrean Power sims better than Blade of Wrath as EP adds fewer extra actions per minute than BoW does.

Which brings me to another annoyance - Empyrean Power screams out for Fires of Justice (which needs to be buffed so it's as good as Blade of Wrath), but they're on the same row.

When it comes to auras, I don't hate them - they give us a raid buff. Sure we'll set and forget them, but at least there's a slight choice there (which is more than Mages, Priests, etc. get with theirs). What I don't like is the inclusion of Retribution Aura as an aura. To use it we'll have to either deny everyone the benefits of one of the other auras, or swap to it as people are dying - a time when we're probably hell's busy already - and aura swaps are on the GCD. I predict that what will happen is the first Pally in the raid will do Devotion (ideally a tank), the second Concetration (probably Holy), and any Rets surplus to that will run Retribution. I think Retribution Aura should go back to being a simple passive or just be ditched entirely for something else.

Also, the Pony needs to go. It was a stopgap addition in Legion because of very negative feedback on other experiments, it blew then, it blows in BfA, and it'll blow in SL. In Legion it maybe wasn't too bad for Holy (it's similar to one of the MoP/WoD talents they sometimes used) or Prot (that had some interesting talent choices that could've been fun if they were stronger), but it's junk for Ret. Pursuit of Justice or Long Arm of the Law (personal preference for the latter) being returned in place of the Pony would be nice.

And for the class overall - far too many of the talent choices are identical. Compare this to the Shaman trees (full of dead talents though they may be), and they have much more variation between specs. Also, for Holy they've kept having a throughput talent on the same row as a survival and a mobility talent, and I think that's really poor placement.

Overall, I'm not impressed. It feels like we're still going downhill, as have have for the last three expansions (WoD, Legion, BfA). Sure there might be some good points (as there were in WoD and Legion), but overall we aren't improving.

[Isenholt]

No Beta here, but have done quite a lot of testing since PTR came up (at least 3-4 hrs a day).

I don't want to try and sell you on Ret, but in all my testing there was ONE silver lining that I wanted to share with you guys that you may have forgotten.

Art of War is no longer capped at 4PPM, now just a 24% chance on AA for a proc, which opens up some fun play.

I currently run Zeal/Blade of Wrath/Seraphim/Crusade (this is coming from a severe build so I have 3x Expurgation still). Essences: VoP Major (ofc) BotE/FI/C&F

After testing the hell out of this setup, I think I see why the CD for BoJ was increased and Wake of Ashes HP gen was nerfed.

I am flooded with Art of War procs during Crusade (esp during seraph), it's basically to the point where you can near guarantee an Art of War proc immediately following a Zeal application during Crusade. Reason being is obvious: Your AA speed is nuts, I even tried a Gale Force enchant just to see how far I could push it. This being said, I still hate that Art of War LOVES to proc on or at the very last second so often. Even without the use of Hammer of Wrath during wings I am actually busier on the keys than I am on live by a long shot. Is it good dps? I have no idea.

I'm averaging around 40 Art of War procs during a five min test. If you have a decent suite of gear available to you try it out and see what you reckon.

Aside from all that noise, I agree with the sentiments I see throughout this thread:

We have some really dead talents, we have some clunky stuff going on, AND we even have PVP talents that are now non-functioning.

P.S. Why do all specs have access to SotR? If you were going to unprune something else that all specs could use, why not Exorcism? So many of us miss the hell out of that spell.

[Kalisandra]

The problem with this is that to take advantage of that we'll be forced into a BoJ+Crusade build yet again.

[Isenholt]

The problem with this is that to take advantage of that we'll be forced into a BoJ+Crusade build yet again.

Plus the average I listed is 8PPM, which with the selection of Blade of Wrath talent is pretty much still sounding like 100% more than 4PPM, so that's a big shrug. They definitely seem to happen more during that 10 Stack Crusade, that much is true.

I don't want to be pigeon holed into Crusade again either, I just don't really "feel" the other 100 tier talents when I play with them. I wish they'd just get a bit more imaginative beyond steroid-type things for us.