Blizzard countering flying, your opinion.

[Schizoide]

Currently, there's no strong counter in the questing/leveling loop to the big advantage of flight.

That's the justification for Pathfinder. Only after you fully exhaust all that content, do they let you fly.

[SirCowdog]

I think you're partially right.

I do understand what you mean about using the standard formula leading to stagnation in quest and encounter design. I also find dungeon and raid design suffers greatly from this.

Freeform out of combat flight is an opportunity to punish abuse of flight in a more direct way. Currently, there's no strong counter in the questing/leveling loop to the big advantage of flight. More NPCs should be able to hard counter a flying player such that abusing flight becomes a liability. Any mob with a ranged attack/spell cast ought to include some sort of anti-flight ability like throwing a net, casting a snare, etc. And such abilities should dismount a player causing them to take full or even enhanced fall damage. A simple addition of Concussive Shot to any archer would suffice, and give them a passive enabling them to target a flying player from further off. I know it seems harsh, but that's because as players we've become spoiled by the late unlock of flight.

I say fly for travel as you like, and leave the exploration on foot to the times when you saturate the player with combat to where they don't want to fly because of the likelihood of being shot down, then the ideal strategy becomes to land near the quest area, fight your way in, complete the objective, fight your way out/escape using your defensives and mobility, take off from a safer position, and fly back to town to complete the quest. This same strategy is used when quests take us indoors where mounts aren't available anyway.

I don't believe that flying needs to be punished every time a player uses it. But both the core mechanics of flight need to change to fit better into the world, and the encounter design needs to also recognize that players will be able to fly. This doesn't mean that every objective is covered in enemies that have anti-flight abilities, but it should probably mean that some objectives or entire quest areas are in places that either disallow flight, or make it awkward to use.

I'll go back to the airship example again, because I think it illustrates the point pretty well. You need flying to reach the airship, but can't fly inside the airship where one or more quest objectives are located. This concept could be extended to several different types of locations, or even entire areas. A zone full of floating islands, or inside a cavern with many branching passages, or out on the ocean where many seaships are located in a fleet, a dense urban area with many tall buildings, or a heavy jungle with multiple layers of foliage and arboreal dwellings.

Not every zone needs to use something like this, of course. But having some every now and then would spice things up, and control the use of flight with in-game environmental methods that fit the lore/setting instead of with arbitrary time-locks.

[FelPlague]

That's the justification for Pathfinder. Only after you fully exhaust all that content, do they let you fly.

Yeah that is pretty much it.

[WowIsDead64]

Yeah that is pretty much it.

Problem is - "exhaust" is subjective term. Blizzard think, I need year to "exhaust" content. But all I actually need - is two weeks max. May be month, if we'd take artificial time gating into account.

[Eapoe]

Problem is - "exhaust" is subjective term. Blizzard think, I need year to "exhaust" content. But all I actually need - is two weeks max. May be month, if we'd take artificial time gating into account.

That’s you, though. There are other people who may play for an hour a day, if that. There’s still people that talk about not having Pathfinder complete.
Before a misunderstanding happens, let me clarify by stating I usually have content done relatively quickly after release. Minus RNG aspects like Mecha-Done or Undersea Usurper, the main story, exploration, and the like are done with a few days.

[SirCowdog]

That’s you, though. There are other people who may play for an hour a day, if that. There’s still people that talk about not having Pathfinder complete.
Before a misunderstanding happens, let me clarify by stating I usually have content done relatively quickly after release. Minus RNG aspects like Mecha-Done or Undersea Usurper, the main story, exploration, and the like are done with a few days.

That's the crux of the entire discussion: Should everyone have to wait for the slowest players in order to unlock their rewards?

[Eapoe]

That's the crux of the entire discussion: Should everyone have to wait for the slowest players in order to unlock their rewards?

According to Blizzard, yes.
On a side note, I personally don’t want inconveniences places in the air just to have flight at the beginning of an xpac and throughout. If they give us flight at the start, so be it, but don’t take the issues people have with land travel and place it in the air.
I leveled thru Vash’jir and I loved every minute of it; but, I also remember how much shit it got, and still gets, from people saying they don’t like the design. They don’t like having things above and below them they have to try and find with little reference point. They didn’t like the design of the zone even though they had a pure 360 axis to maneuver around.
To me, flight is a convenience and I definitely use it to skip the parts of the game that I can to speed up how I do things. I don’t want things in the air to slow it down, otherwise I view flight as just alternate ground travel and that doesn’t appeal to me. Hell, it doesn’t appeal to most people as they complain about the terrain and having to move around things. Why should we appeal to Blizzard with an argument of “I don’t like this stuff on the ground so I think you should put it in the air so we can fly sooner.”

[FelPlague]

Problem is - "exhaust" is subjective term. Blizzard think, I need year to "exhaust" content. But all I actually need - is two weeks max. May be month, if we'd take artificial time gating into account.

nvm it was 10 months, close enough i thoguht it was less then that. i forgot we have already had bfa for 15 months.

[Witchblade77]

That's the crux of the entire discussion: Should everyone have to wait for the slowest players in order to unlock their rewards?

even slowest players would be done long before pathfinder part 2, unless they take a break from the game all together. moreover - pathfinder part 2 is most certainly going to take slow players far more time. we are STILL leaving slow players behind, so the whole argument about waiting for slowest players to exhaust content - doesn't really hold much water.

[SirCowdog]

According to Blizzard, yes.

If that's actually the case, then the next question would be why it isn't applied in a similar fashion in other areas of the game?

Are mythix raiders denied drops while the LFR players catch up? Are exalted rep rewards denied to players who have already done the grind while people who are slower get their act together?

I think the problem here lies in the binary nature of flight. Other rewards are more granular in nature, allowing for a more even release along with benefiting more smoothly with catch-up mechanics.

But flying is not like that. Mostly due to how fast it is relative to ground travel, but exacerbated by the content design not accounting for it. This creates a situation where it's either on or off. There's no middle ground. No progression.

That's something that these worms in 8.3 start to address. It's an extremely small and simplistic step, and that's why it feels so bad to players. And you're absolutely correct that it's not what we should be asking for.

.

Why should we appeal to Blizzard with an argument of “I don’t like this stuff on the ground so I think you should put it in the air so we can fly sooner.”

Let me be abundantly clear. 8.3 worms are not ideal.

The only condition under which I find these types of simple anti-air mechanics tolerable is during the earlier era of the game when we didn't know better(such as with a possible Classic TBC re-release), or as a short term bare-minimum - used more as a template for where to begin improving and innovating - that is only good relative to how absolutely terrible pathfinder is.

If I had to guess, I'd say that one possible next step from this would be to start the next expansion with slow flying(60%), anti air mechanics like the worms, and pathfinder progression improving base speed and resistance to anti-air mechanics over the course of the entire expansion.

This is also not ideal, but it's an iterative process that could lead to a gradual release of flying power that more closely resembles other power progression systems, such as gear.

- - - Updated - - -

even slowest players would be done long before pathfinder part 2, unless they take a break from the game all together. moreover - pathfinder part 2 is most certainly going to take slow players far more time. we are STILL leaving slow players behind, so the whole argument about waiting for slowest players to exhaust content - doesn't really hold much water.

I agree that it doesn't make much sense. So what other possible explanations are there?

I have ideas, but if I make them I'll get blamed for being a Blizzard hater, so I'm trying to take a more reasonable, discussion-oriented approach.

[Dhrizzle]

Problem is - "exhaust" is subjective term. Blizzard think, I need year to "exhaust" content. But all I actually need - is two weeks max. May be month, if we'd take artificial time gating into account.

Content is exhausted when it no longer offers relevant rewards. In WoW terms since they introduced artefact power that only really happens when a new tier of content is released. With Mechagon and Nazjatar tou get flying before it is exhausted but the rep grind means you have probably experienced and explored all of the zones.

- - - Updated - - -

That's the crux of the entire discussion: Should everyone have to wait for the slowest players in order to unlock their rewards?

That's a thing Blizz have been grappling with for a long time, the need to give players content that will last an extended period of time so people still want to log in, but not need a big time commitment so only the hardcore can complete anything.

[Wildpantz]

Very good now to add war mode on= disabled flying. War mode was so much better before pvp everywhere at wq's now once every blue moon

[sam86]

If teaching someone to press 1-1-1-2-1-1-1-2 and the occassional *3* once your name lights up during a raid warning is too hard, then i have nothing left to say.

u really overestimate average wow player, specially the dps type
"“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” Goerge Carlin

[WowIsDead64]

Content is exhausted when it no longer offers relevant rewards. In WoW terms since they introduced artefact power that only really happens when a new tier of content is released. With Mechagon and Nazjatar tou get flying before it is exhausted but the rep grind means you have probably experienced and explored all of the zones.

Made up arbitrary "rules" again? Blizzard can implement any arbitrary time gating, but it doesn't change anything. AP grind is endless. More precisely - it's actually time-gated due to catch up mechanic. Only difference between grinding it and not bothering about it - some players can be a little ahead of others. So content is done, when it's done for you.

[Dhrizzle]

Made up arbitrary "rules" again? Blizzard can implement any arbitrary time gating, but it doesn't change anything. AP grind is endless. More precisely - it's actually time-gated due to catch up mechanic. Only difference between grinding it and not bothering about it - some players can be a little ahead of others. So content is done, when it's done for you.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here, just because you can't be bothered doing a bit of content doesn't mean you've exhausted it.

[SirCowdog]

I'm going to break my rule about interacting with you. Mainly because I'm trying to turn over a new leaf on the way in which I approach discussions, and that includes giving people new chances. I hope that we can reply to each other with civility.

That's a thing Blizz have been grappling with for a long time, the need to give players content that will last an extended period of time so people still want to log in, but not need a big time commitment so only the hardcore can complete anything.

The problem I see with the Pathfinder approach to extend the lifespan of content is that it appears to be based on something of a false premise. Or giving Blizzard devs the benefit of the doubt, at the very least it would appear that they've badly misunderstood the way in which their methods are interpreted by some of the playerbase.

Let me explain my point of view on this, so there isn't any confusion:

Many players complete Pathfinder part 1 very early in the lifespan of an expansion. Granted, the requirements of completing Pathfinder do encourage players to consume and repeat that content more than they might otherwise(generally due to rep grind requirement). But even with those requirements, the content involved doesn't last the 8 or so months until Part 2 is available.

So I'm trying to understand the reasoning here. The content itself is generally exhausted long before the reward is available. Even players who don't start the expansion until several months in can generally clear the requirements before part 2 becomes available. If the goal is the make the content itself last longer, then this method doesn't appear to actually achieve that. Withholding the reward doesn't result in players returning to the content after it's already been consumed during Pathfinder part 1.

To sum up: The pathfinder achievements themselves(rep grinds, exploration, story quest completion, etc) do extend the lifespan of content, but the delay between part 1 and part 2 does not. Therefore, what is the actual purpose of the delay between part 1 and part 2?

If there's another aspect to this that I've missed, or left out, please add to it.

[WowIsDead64]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here, just because you can't be bothered doing a bit of content doesn't mean you've exhausted it.

What I want to say - is that saying "You're not done it, cuz you haven't done some arbitrary X" is wrong. Why? Exactly because X can be arbitrary. Even "when hell will freeze over".

We talk about arbitrary time-gated "achievements" here. Story for example. Blizzard add just 1 hour worth of extra content in every content patch. Is this content worth waiting for 4-6 months to "complete" it without flying? Is it so important, that we just can't complete it with OMG flying? No. Or some arbitrary quest, we need to complete to consider content to be "completed"? No. Completing 99.99% of content, but waiting for 0.01% for several months just to consider it to be "completed"? No.

There is no such thing, as "exhausted content", but there are "exhausted players". "Bring player, not content".

90% of ground content is released in patch x.0. Future patches just add some small parts to it. For example patch x.1 usually adds some small story quests. Patch x.2 is released after a year and adds just around 10%, because it doesn't include leveling. Is it right to say, that I haven't exhausted x.0 content, because I haven't completed some small x.1 part yet? It's wrong. x.0 content is exhausted and flying should be available there. As simple, as that.

[TaurenFemaleLovah]

If you consider the response Ion gave to the direct question about Pathfinder at Blizzcon, which was something along the lines of "considering the alternatives, this is the compromise we've made." & coupling that with the current approach to limiting flight in 8.3 content - it tells you a number of things:

a) The leaders, clearly Ion, do not want flight in current content and in reality - the game.
b) He's being clear that either it's this or nothing, there is one 'alternatives' which is flight is gone.
c) Really they are burning players at both ends, testing things to see where the absolute boundries are of limiting flight in present content - I have a feeling an equivelent to the worms will stay if there isn't a burn from the playerbase.

Now, alongside that there are other considerations here:

a) They are still perfectly happy to sell to you store mounts that they know full well are sold to be used, at least partially, as flying mounts.
b) Pathfinder was sold as a compromise to allow flight, but they are again limiting it's functionality, they should've been upfront about that, the worms.
c) They don't do player feedback, unless there is a clear stampede, the changes made to the game at this point are about dragging content out to the absolute maximum, and this has had an impact on quality. I, personally, don't buy all the spin about more developers on the game, there may well be, but I'll bet that is including shared resources - like art staff.

There will be an element of the playerbase that don't like flight or the impact it brings, and that's ok, you don't really have to use flight. However, there are also people who do enjoy flying, have spent alot of gold and hours grinding it's availability and all that being removed, doesn't really constitute a great experience for them. Pathfinder, at least partially, finds a middle ground.

One thing they do need to improve is communication, the flight debacle in WoD, could've been handled alot better by just explaining the rationale to paying customers, instead their plans, including drastic changes, are not effectively communicated - partially because they know what the reaction will be I suspect, but there has been too many of them for it to not be a problem. The reasoning they come up with is usually clearly lies and can be unpicked by an infant.

I don't think flight will be more accessible at any point whilst the present team is calling the shots.

[Kralljin]

u really overestimate average wow player, specially the dps type
"“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” Goerge Carlin

No, i don't, i am fully aware of this.
It just highlights a tangential point to this discussion: Blizzard designs the game around an ever decreasing lowest common demoninator in terms of player ability.

If people now want to call me an entitled elitist or whatever based on that, i'm just going to say that they are essentially advocating for more content on the difficulty level of Normal Warfronts, where most of the raid has to be literally AFK to lose.
Where the entire gameplay aspect of the game has to be neutered down to a level where it's barely existant anymore.

[FelPlague]

u really overestimate average wow player, specially the dps type
"“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” Goerge Carlin

and which side are you on?