Should bailing on a M+ group be penalized?

[Super Kami Dende]

It should. Leaving before finishing a the Mythic should deplete your current stone regardless of if you were the one who used the Stone to start the dungeon. But to protect everyone else, once 1 person bails and their stone gets depleted the remaining 4 players should be allowed to do a "Vote to Disband" check. Where if the Vote passes you are removed from the Dungeon but with your Stone not depleted but instead make the Vote to Disband have a 1hr Cooldown just so People would not be tempted to just use it to restart the dungeon constantly.

Basically it would make the People who leave first much less likely to bail and if they did wouldn't completely screw the rest of the group especially the key starter by allowing them to try again.

[Kiwijello]

This is part of the reason I quit Mythics. Aside from raiding, there should not be a way for another player to overtly and deliberately waste my times. It's a stupid system and it needs to be addressed. I refuse to make a group and spend a big chuck of time, only to lose progress because nancy has to change her kids diaper and run to the store for pampers... so stupid.

[melodramocracy]

Absolutely there should be, but Blizzard isnt much of a supporter of consequences for negative play.

Keeping a blacklist of bad players is really all you can do on a personal level.

Leave an M+ = 1hr deserter, lose your current key and chest for that week.

[Malmmoc]

I absolutely agree 100% that Raider.io should (if possible, which I actually don't think really is or else I'm sure they'd have at least done something like it by now) include the number of keys left prior to completion. Just like the OP said, it's to help stop habitual offenders, not someone who left a couple of keys in the past because his internet cut out or he unexpectedly needed to leave the computer.

Of course this will have social ramifications and growing pains. Asshole group leaders will obviously prioritize people with 0 leaves over ones with even just 1 or 2, but they're already doing the same thing with io score and gear score, so really, what's one more god damned number?

I'd love to see if I'm inviting some potential shitwad with 20 premature leaves. I'd love if there was a system in place to incentivise not leaving a key before it's over.

If you're not being a habitual leaver, then chances are your leaves are going to be pretty low. The community will quickly sort out social rules for how many leaves are considered acceptable. Obviously leaves should expire after so much time, as well. Once, say, 3 weeks have passed or so a leave will expire off of your score.

Anyone who is against the idea is either a fool or themselves a habitual leaver. There's practically no fucking reason not to do this.

As for an actual in-game punishment or something: No.

I wish I could put flashing neon lights around this post and pin it to the front page of MMO Champion.

[TwoMana]

There's no reliable way to apply in-game punishments like that.
Sometimes you actually want to de-level a key.

Maybe there should be R.io (or equivalent) that could keep score on people who leave group before completion.
That wouldn't hurt people who run with static teams and purposefully de-level keys, but would probably help puggers.

Idk, I only run keys with my M+ team, so this is not really a problem I encounter.

- - - Updated - - -

Absolutely there should be, but Blizzard isnt much of a supporter of consequences for negative play.

Keeping a blacklist of bad players is really all you can do on a personal level.

Leave an M+ = 1hr deserter, lose your current key and chest for that week.

That's a fucking horrible solution.

[schwarzkopf]

Yes... absolutely, but not harshly as some times people leave through no fault of their own.

My solution is this - if you bail on an M+n, then you are restricted to doing M+(n-1) until you complete that.

So someone who is a serial bailer will quickly be restricted to doing normal mythics... but someone who loses power and can't come back as an exception still gets to proceed.

I am against naming and shaming because that can exclude people for good.

[Unholyground]

You should get a debuff when you enter a mythic dungeon that is removed upon completion or it turns into a deserter style debuff that starts to tick down as soon as you bail, and if you are kicked from a group by the players you should get a lesser version of the debuff since it was not your choice to leave.

To prevent penalizing people for groups that fall apart and cannot complete the group leader will be able initiate a safe disband that everyone has to agree to and then no one gets the debuff that way as well.

[Hellobolis]

i'd like leaving in certain situations to be penalized.

but my certain situations are different from other peoples certain situations. and at the end of the day you can never know if someone had a legit reason for leaving or just did it for the lulz. so it'll just lead to abuse and unfortunate situations.

Even just giving deserter debuff can easily cause problems in fixed groups with people swapping to alts. there is just no way it could ever work.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes... absolutely, but not harshly as some times people leave through no fault of their own.

My solution is this - if you bail on an M+n, then you are restricted to doing M+(n-1) until you complete that.

So someone who is a serial bailer will quickly be restricted to doing normal mythics... but someone who loses power and can't come back as an exception still gets to proceed.

I am against naming and shaming because that can exclude people for good.

the obvious problem with systems like this is how do you differentiate between a leaver, and a group legitimately calling the dungeon quits before the timer runs out.

[schwarzkopf]

the obvious problem with systems like this is how do you differentiate between a leaver, and a group legitimately calling the dungeon quits before the timer runs out.

If 3 or more of 5 people decide to leave the group (e.g. by the group leader asking them all via a UI function) then we are all good - no penalty.

If 1 person leaves the group or disconnects and doesn't come back within 5 minutes - that person is penalised. The rest can then use the above vote system to abandon the group with no penalty.

[jzhbee]

In regards to how the system would enforce this, I propose instead of being a "game punishing players for leaving", it allows for transparent info regarding formation of groups. For example, when recruiting for M+ from Party Finder, show stats that include, for example, "amount of keys attempted continued to completion". Regardless of whether it was in time or not, it would show how often a player finished a key they started. Note, I'm aware that sometimes a group falls apart outside of your control. There are two things I can propose. One, it does not count against you if another player leaves first. (This does not apply if you were grouped with somebody and joined the party together). Second, if groups falling apart naturally is just something that happens, nobody should expect a 100% finish rate.

[Oxford Kama]

You are not entitled to a carry.

If you can't handle something as simple as Freehold's first boss, better players that are wasting their time on your group shouldn't be forced to carry the bad players. They should be free to leave the second the group demonstrates they are not ready for the content they attempted.

If you can't handle not despawning the first boss, you make the group title in LFG "Freehold 14 Learning Run LF All" and not "Freehold 14 Fast Run Bigdicks Only".

Punishing leavers lets bads trap good players in their groups and force them to waste time carrying awful and manipulative players or eat a penalty.

Literally git gud.

[Hellobolis]

If 3 or more of 5 people decide to leave the group (e.g. by the group leader asking them all via a UI function) then we are all good - no penalty.

If 1 person leaves the group or disconnects and doesn't come back within 5 minutes - that person is penalised. The rest can then use the above vote system to abandon the group with no penalty.

that just sounds too much of hassle. i would run into this system more often during normal play with my guild/friends where it would just be annoying, than i would use it for actual leavers. and it sounds like the risk of accidentally penalizing someone is still quite real.

at which point i would start to wonder if the cure was worse than the disease.

[schwarzkopf]

that just sounds too much of hassle.

LOL - three seconds of effort is too much hassle

[Trbn]

implement leaving penalty and you will have to dealer with bailers in your group not leaving but griefing

[Frozenbro]

Let's consider another side of the spectrum, should troll/genuinely bad players be penalized for ruining a m+ run? if leavers should be penalized, then the clowns should too.

[Zarvel]

the irony here is that i assume you don't realize that raider.io is on the biggest reasons for this kind of behavior in the first place.

if running a key and beating or failing the timer just meant whether your key got bigger, IMO people wouldn't be so quick to bail on a group at the first sign that the group may not beat the timer.
but when you have a community enforced cultural system that actively penalizes anyone for failing to beat timers, this is the end result that you're going to have to live with.

Pretty much.

This is a problem RiO has to take up as their responsibility to fix since they are the ones who've introduced the metric that is the root cause for this cancer.
Wowprogress has the Karma system, Rio should have something similar when you can up or downvote a player, kinda like a youtube video. If you see the number of downvotes on someone's profile is significant, you know something's up so you will refrain from inviting that player into your group to begin with.

Blizzard has little to no responsibility here in fixing this issue. Anything they do to tackle this currently can be seen as a bonus, like making the rio addon incompatible with the game.

So many players these days join keys expecting perfect MDI execution, and then act surprised when they come across human levels of errors. If you want an MDI execution, don't join a key that clearly says "not in time" or "chill" or whatever else.

[Frozenbro]

So many players these days join keys expecting perfect MDI execution, and then act surprised when they come across human levels of errors. If you want an MDI execution, don't join a key that clearly says "not in time" or "chill" or whatever else.

No one expects that, you are just overeacting, people in here refer to the keys that most of the time say "fast run" or "big dick dps", if a key says this and its a 14, using OP example, you dont expect morons in the key, but then you actually get morons and people in this thread expect you to bear with it and carry the morons for free otherwise you get penalized lmao.

[WraithKingOstarion]

i've had people leave M+ groups for a lot less. i have seen people leaving without explanation as soon as the key begins (maybe that was their intention to screw up the run), i have also seen a healer leave because the tank "failed to taunt an add that fixates on random targets" so you really cannot have a system in place that can look at each specific reason why somebody leaves.

perhaps a super-advanced AI that takes in consideration every preceding moments leading up to somebody's departure from a M+ run?

[mojusk]

naaah..
itll be one of those "the cure is worse than the disease" scenarios.
i know it can be frustrating when people leave for no good reason.
but its equally frustrating when people are so bad, its a wonder how they managed to turn on the pc. but somehow they got into a +10.
should we penalize people for being bad?
i mean both are wasting other peoples time.

[Augusta138]

As I said, there are problems with it. Titanforging is another matter already. Titanforging should be heavily nerfed or removed entirely. My opinion.


My intent with the suggestion is to allow replacement of people in m+. The timer in there is also a horror. Its there because blizz wanted esport and its gonna stay there too. They arent going to remove it. Yet, it heavily pushes people to select meta groups, slightest mistake will cause people to rage, ect. It is a toxicity generator in my opinion.

So there should be some kind of "casual" mode where you can replace people and get weekly chest. Sure it could bring problems like kicking people at end to sell weekly chest unlocks or something, but I at least want to believe this would be far lesser problem than group leaving and other m+ problems that come along with current system.

I'm not a game designer, but i can tell current system is very flawed and it cant be fixed by punishments.

For one, the weekly chest is still granted. Wether you time it or not.

Not sure how it looks in the US but on tuesday in the eu, (would be monday in the us then) the group finder is filled with: +10 / +11 /+12 weekly chest run / not going timer.

These are the groups i sometimes make use off on my "lesser" characters because i dont care about rio or making it in time.

So there is already a "casual" mode created by the community and they reap the same rewards as anyone who does a +11 in time.

I dont think this is an issue, because sometimes my best run isnt in time either because with the group i run we can still make mistakes and screw over our +15/+16 run and we are fine with that.

A penalty system is hard to get done right and needs a serious anti-abuse system or whatever.

Giving it requirements that x people need to agree to kick someone like LFR / pvp wont work if you pug with 3-4 people who just lack 1 role because their last group member is away or whatever.

Changing it to be "requires full random group" different guilds / servers will just disperse people through different guilds or realm transfers to keep the option to play together and still be able to kick.

I still think, that if you wanna do mythic+ content or any content that requires coordination and you wanna be succesfull, that pugging 1 person or pug it all together isnt the way to go.

Find a guild / group of friends or join the m+ discord.

I have pugged m+ and i have had bad runs during Legion / BFA and it did cost me some good keys and thats too bad.
I have made the choice to risk it with random people and it did cost me.

Nowadays i run higher m+ on 2 characters with a group of ingame friends on 1 or 2 days during the week. And even with our communication we sometimes have bad pulls / silly mistakes and what not. It simply is part of the game and even a 3000 rio player can have a bad day or make a silly mistake.

Shadowlands will most likely change the m+ ui / group finder to work similar to rio and maybe even better, but we have to wait and see i guess.

I would rather not see a penalty system implemented because i think it can be abused in a lot of ways and that will hurt the game more than just that 1 run that went badly due to any reason.