Gonna miss titanforging.

[Malikath]

Oh it's you, nevermind I thought someone seriously had this opinion.

[Kaver]

The only looser attitude is yours, seriously. They are winners as long as they can keep up their goals.
The only way to loose in this game is to start blaming and flaming then giving up.

But according to you, guys who do higher than +20 keys are loosers while reality is, hardly any mythic raider can go up this high even with better gear.

"Seriously" xD

You're pretty funny. But with that mentality you have will never get you anywhere.

I have said multiple times that I feel bad for people who push +20-25 keys because they do hard content and deserve good gear.

But Heroic raiders who only do piss easy raids and a +10 key once a week don't deserve shit. They are not doing any challenging content and the reward they get should be fitting to that level of content.

I'm just so happy that Blizzard have seen the light and wont cater to people like you anymore. You want the best reward then you have to do the hardest work, simple as that. No more welfare for you. No more loser mentality.

[dragnipur]

Looking at DPS sims for trinkets in 8.2 all the top simming ones are from raid for my class

So if theres a particularly strong trinket in M+ that people keep going back for each tier like say harlans dice. That isnt actually the "BiS" so you're wasting time you could be using in mythic to get better gear anyway. I havent taken any options away from you.

But this takes away options from players like myself who dont have the time commitments anymore for mythic raiding. Why do I need mythic loot to do m+ when mythic raiding is supposed to be the "highest point of pve" you need to do the highest point in pve to be able to do well in the lower levels? doesnt make sense. Mythic loot should be for doing well in mythic raid. Not everything in the game requires this now.

What if i don't raid?What if i do M+ content for gearing and i don't raid at all for a lack of time?

[Noxina]

And this is how it is, Blizzard literally can never please everyone. Even if (it seems) most of the playerbase hates one thing, there will always be someone who really enjoys it.

I'm sorry for your loss OP, but I honestly believe this is for the better for the game as a whole. Titanforging lead to some unhealthy gameplay, where we got "forced" (as in, if you want BIS, you need to do it, not literally forced) to do lower difficulties of raids to get a trinket for instance, just incase it titanforged.

[Denizly]

The only looser attitude is yours, seriously. They are winners as long as they can keep up their goals.
The only way to loose in this game is to start blaming and flaming then giving up.

But according to you, guys who do higher than +20 keys are loosers while reality is, hardly any mythic raider can go up this high even with better gear.

Likewise those top M+ clears could not do mythic raid. Skill AND gear is what it takes to clear a top m+ or a mythic raid.

Both require coordination, except raid requires more cuz more ppl need to pa attention to stuff. I'm also sure that every MDI player (whom are supposed to be the best m+ folk in the world) raids mythic in their guild. Why? Cuz that gear upgrade will help them. At the same time, only mythic raiders who care about leader boards do a high key, rest do 15s.
The reason to do a mythic raid are gear, bragging rights, titles / achies, mounts.
The reasons to do a top clear in m+ are bragging rights. Gear won't get better over +15, there are no titles i'm aware off except the one to clear all +15 dungs once, and mounts don't increase their drop rates key lvl.

So yes, harder content = better gear. Should've always been that. The +15 end chest awards 465 gear (+5 over hc raid) and the weekly gives u 475 gear (that is mythic ilvl). The reason why a end dungeon chest shouldn't award 475 is simple, u can farm them 763774726 a week, where's in a raid u got 1 shot per boss per week.

Also to all who say they can't commit to a schedule of a raid guild due to whatever IRL. That's fine, you don't have to.
Accept you're getting what you deserve in terms of gear, the above ilvls, and that for the better gear you need to take that raid step.

Why do you need to have the best gear? You're not gonna use it to hit the hardest content (and that is the mythic raid even according to blizzard themselves).
You get 1 peace of gear each week that's equal to a the gear a mythic raider gets. Is it gonna be a good or bad piece, no1 knows, same goes for raiders, they can get a drop they don't need.

[Monolithi]

"Seriously" xD

You're pretty funny. But with that mentality you have will never get you anywhere.

I have said multiple times that I feel bad for people who push +20-25 keys because they do hard content and deserve good gear.

But Heroic raiders who only do piss easy raids and a +10 key once a week don't deserve shit. They are not doing any challenging content and the reward they get should be fitting to that level of content.

I'm just so happy that Blizzard have seen the light and wont cater to people like you anymore. You want the best reward then you have to do the hardest work, simple as that. No more welfare for you. No more loser mentality.

Who actually dont want to get best reward for least work, it is pretty normal for humans.
Why doing things hard way when you can do easier? This is both in IRL and ingame.

Why do you use best gear, enchants, flasks, bombs, pots in raids? To kill bosses easier, right?
So, where is that BIG effort here if you want it easier??

[Kaver]

Who actually dont want to get best reward for least work, it is pretty normal for humans.
Why doing things hard way when you can do easier? This is both in IRL and ingame.

Why do you use best gear, enchants, flasks, bombs, pots in raids? To kill bosses easier, right?
So, where is that BIG effort here if you want it easier??

????

Mythic bosses are more challenging than Heroic bosses and should ALWAYS give better gear. Simple.

[Monolithi]

Yes, I will miss TF too, it is pretty much big deal for me not having TF anymore.
There is no carrot-on-the-stick anymore, I will probably stop playing expansions much earlier.

Imo, only people who didnt fancy TF were some mythic-raids players and minmaxers.
We will see how this will reflect on whole playerbase and their interest in playing over longer time, I just hope it wont lead to WoD-style raidlogging gameplay.
There are selfish and narcisstic people around, who cant be happy for other people having fun and want it removed. This time Blizzard decided to cater to those group, just like they did the opposite when they introduced TF.

- - - Updated - - -

????

Mythic bosses are more challenging than Heroic bosses and should ALWAYS give better gear. Simple.

Simple, but boring. Getting TF piece once in a while, makes some people play the game longer, what is in everyones interest.

[Kaver]

Simple, but boring. Getting TF piece once in a while, makes some people play the game longer, what is in everyones interest.

CBA. There is plenty of content in the game. If you're a heroic raider and find heroic raids boring, then go try out mythic. You don't need welfare gear to prolong the game.

- - - Updated - - -

There are selfish and narcisstic people around, who cant be happy for other people having fun and want it removed.

Nah, we just want a fair balance between challenge and reward. People who want TF are just losers who want to feel special without putting in any work.

You don't need all that TF welfare gear. You just outgear content instead of getting better at the game which is really bad. Playing heroic EP with +440 gear is a complete joke. TF is why the game is full of extemely bad players.

TF is like playing with cheat codes. Instead of improving yourself you outgear the content. SUPER LOSER MENTALITY.

[Denizly]

Yes, I will miss TF too, it is pretty much big deal for me not having TF anymore.
There is no carrot-on-the-stick anymore, I will probably stop playing expansions much earlier.

Imo, only people who didnt fancy TF were some mythic-raids players and minmaxers.
We will see how this will reflect on whole playerbase and their interest in playing over longer time, I just hope it wont lead to WoD-style raidlogging gameplay.
There are selfish and narcisstic people around, who cant be happy for other people having fun and want it removed. This time Blizzard decided to cater to those group, just like they did the opposite when they introduced TF.

- - - Updated - - -


Simple, but boring. Getting TF piece once in a while, makes some people play the game longer, what is in everyones interest.

Corruption now servers the same purpose. The same old piece of gear is suddenly better cuz of an affix, and you also have to think about how much corruption you want / can have on.

And don't try to tell me now that it's not the same or is worse. You don't know that yet, people are just now exploring this new stat. Not everyone watches videos / reads forums to know what's up with the game. For those who don't (and they are in the majority) this will be the new cool thing. Most people don't even know TF is gone.

[Xkiller9000]

Dont have more time to put into the game to get better gear? sucks. there needs to be a gear difference between those you put in the time and are good at the game vs those who dont/arent good

[Monolithi]

CBA. There is plenty of content in the game. If you're a heroic raider and find heroic raids boring, then go try out mythic. You don't need welfare gear to prolong the game.

- - - Updated - - -



Nah, we just want a fair balance between challenge and reward. People who want TF are just losers who want to feel special without putting in any work.

You don't need all that TF welfare gear. You just outgear content instead of getting better at the game which is really bad. Playing heroic EP with +440 gear is a complete joke. TF is why the game is full of extemely bad players.

TF is like playing with cheat codes. Instead of improving yourself you outgear the content. SUPER LOSER MENTALITY.

I totally understand your stance on effort, competition, reward - difficulty ratio. Been there, done that.

Problem is you dont understand and dont allow differences among people. Your mantra is “my way or highway”. That is what bothers me.
You (not you per se) dont allow people to support Trump, climate changes fighting, left wings, right wings, LFR, TF, low oil prices, political correctness, high salaries etc.. you only allow your option and not having any tolerance to other mindsets. And you call other people losers only for reason they are not in line with you.
I did my share on high end raiding, server firsts, hard achievements. Not anymore. Lost will for that and got old, reflexes and speed of thinking arent the same anymore. But, that doesnt mean I will insult others who arent in same mindset.

Im happy for you enjoying your way of playing the game. I know about that dopamine thrill when competing. Sadly, you dont feel the same about me. You want me to go your way and I cant anymore, even if I wanted. And I still want to enjoy the game on the level I like and can do.
TF loot give that dopamine thrill to me from time to time and you are happy that my dopamine is gone. Thats what Im talking about. You are happy when someones fun been taken away.

[Amarys]

I sort of agree with OP. I liked Titanforging as it let me do things with my guild in a relaxed and fun way and still get a chance at the best gear. I loathe having to deal with elitist, toxic players but sadly without TF, it is the only way to get the best gear in the game.
People were acting like you could skip mythic raids and just gear through LFR because of TF. In reality, getting really good, mythic raid level stuff was very rare.

They should have kept TF in raids as is, just limited it to Mythic iLevel. So basically LFR can TF to Mythic raid level but its extremely rare. Heroic, it's more common, it's possible to get the best gear but its slower and you don't get any prestige rewards that come with doing Mythic raids. And finally in mythic raids, every drop is guaranteed to be max iLvl for that patch.

[Thorad]

I like how this Thread is full of Nolifer weebs who think they should be better then you because ''muh mythic raids''. So The amount of Butthurt these people got when they saw others with Titanforging and their whining and bitching actually made Blizzard change stuff. Too bad its going to bite them in the arse soon.

[Raelbo]

I still think what I said before is an argument for why Titanforging should be removed even though you don't agree. Titanforge should be removed because a Mythic raider always should get better gear than a heroic raider with no exceptions. The only way a heroic raider should be able to get higher level of gear should be by becoming a mythic raider (or do a +15 key of course :P).

What I've been trying to explain to you is that your opinion, which you're perfectly entitled to, is NOT, by definition, an argument. It's just an assertion. An argument would be the reasoning behind your assertions. The point is, that without an actual argument, your assertion is basically worthless.

It's a bit like if I try telling you that the sky is pink and purple without bothering to back it up with an explanation and then keep saying that hey, I am entitled to my own opinion.

Heroic raids is very very very easy content.

You're very very wrong. Heroic raids are easier content than Mythic raids, sure, but objectively it's still not exactly trivial. If you find it very very very easy, that just means you're very very very well geared and/or very very very good at the game.

If you cant beat it you need to learn and get better.

And nothing I have said contradicts that.

That being said, WoW is a game in which you use a combination of gear (obtained through work and effort), skill and practice to make progress. This is a good thing because it allows a players at different levels of skill and ability to play the game. The better at the game you are, the more successful you'll be, and the faster you'll clear the content. That is not to say that everyone is simply handed the kills. You still have to be good enough, just not necessarily as good as Method.

Giving better gear is just a form of cheat codes.

No it isn't. Gear is earned, it's part of how you play the game.

Doing heroic EP in 440+ gear for example is a complete joke. Players will not learn anything this way.

Most players don't do heroic EP in this kind of gear. If you've got 440 gear as a result of getting TF drops in EP, it means you cleared the content early and have been farming the entire place for months. So your argument is moot.

I don't like your arguments because I think they a based on a weak loser mentality.

As I have said before, if you have to resort to this level of ad hominem, you may as just admit that you lack the ability to construct an actual argument.

You get the reward you deserve and that's it. Kill a heroic boss and you get heroic gear.

Well of course you should get the reward you deserve. If you kill a heroic boss you get heroic gear, with a decent chance of getting slight upgrade, and a tiny chance of getting a piece that competes with mythic quality gear. If you kill a mythic boss you get mythic gear with a decent chance of it upgrade to the maximum possible ilevel. What this means in practice is that mythic raiders are always going to be significantly better geared than heroic raiders at the same level of progress - which completely satisfies your requirement for people getting rewarded according the level of content they're doing.

Good thing that Blizzard have realized this is the right way.

Blizzard would not have implemented and persisted with TF and then to boot replaced it with a system to try and achieve the same basic outcome if they thought that the principles I am talking about were wrong.

They got rid of TF because they realised that the people who have an issue with TF are never going to accept the merit of the system. And sometimes it's just easier to give in to the players than to fight against players who refuse to see reason. Ultimately it's not about Blizzard are right or wrong, if they're fighting with their players, they're losing.

So in a way, TF is a shit system, not because of the way in which it works, but purely on the basis that it failed to get players to accept it - even if that comes down entirely to issues with the players.

[Ragedaug]

If you're not raiding mythic already you don't need a mythic weapon.

I always found it funny to see two people talking about a video game and one of them is trying to explain and rationalize why they need loot for playing that game and the other doesn't. Just something that makes me smile. I dunno.

- - - Updated - - -

You're very very wrong. Heroic raids are easier content than Mythic raids, sure, but objectively it's still not exactly trivial. If you find it very very very easy, that just means you're very very very well geared and/or very very very good at the game.

I'm guessing both very, very, very, good AND very, very, very well geared. I would suspect most very, very, very good players have very, very, very good gear.

What's always refreshing is when you see one of these very, very, very good and very, very, very well geared players with enough humility to admit that the higher end content is still difficult for players who aren't as good or as well geared as them. You don't see that too often.

[RoKPaNda]

Uh... I quit because of titanforging LOL I hated it in Legion. I got incredibly burnt out farming for the same exact item but with more stats on it.

Then you probably didn't understand how the system worked to be honest. I lot of people didn't, and that's where all the complaints stemmed from, and that's okay because now we know better. It was EXTREMELY unlikely that you were going to get a decent piece of gear from lower content, even lower chance it would be better than your same Mythic piece. Other than that it's just running the same Mythic raid you're going to anyway.

If you're talking about there being a really great M+ piece for your class and you want a better version and facerolling the same +15 became tiring, fair enough, but that's hardly the most grindy thing we've had to do as Mythic raiders.

The only exceptions where I felt like I HAD TO do lesser content was before I had all the legendaries for my spec/class. I had all the ones for my spec in early Nighthold, I had all the ones for my class in early ToS. OR for my spec the CoF trinket was amazing and I needed to run NH on Normal/Heroic each week until I got it because ilevel didn't matter for that trinket.

[Sezh]

The bad news is that the game can't solve that problem for you, because the game is not responsible for your feelings.

Sure it can. It can remove Titanforging. I enjoyed gearing for BiS the short while I played Classic cause I had clear goals with ends in sight. I got bored cause I had no reason to actually get the gear because no content required it.

Unlike so many others, I don't try and pass off my feelings about the game as facts or call certain features objectively bad or good. You're making it sound like my feelings about something I do for fun are irrelevant.

This is how I feel, others most likely feel differently, some feel as I do. I can voice my subjective opinion and at the end of the day, if enough people do then that's probably going to get heard by Blizz and they'll change their game to appease the majority of their customers. Or they won't.

[Raelbo]

Unlike so many others, I don't try and pass off my feelings about the game as facts or call certain features objectively bad or good. You're making it sound like my feelings about something I do for fun are irrelevant.

I am not saying they're irrelevant, rather that they're misunderstood. We all know how we feel, but understanding why is a lot harder. The problem is that often we make decisions based on how we want to feel, but unless we understand the why, we're unlikely to find satisfaction.

This is how I feel, others most likely feel differently, some feel as I do. I can voice my subjective opinion and at the end of the day, if enough people do then that's probably going to get heard by Blizz and they'll change their game to appease the majority of their customers. Or they won't.

And what I am saying is that the subjective opinions voiced by a lot of people on the subject of TF are fueled by their feelings, which they don't understand, and thus their demands are unlikely to fix the problem.

[Hctaz]

Then you probably didn't understand how the system worked to be honest. I lot of people didn't, and that's where all the complaints stemmed from, and that's okay because now we know better. It was EXTREMELY unlikely that you were going to get a decent piece of gear from lower content, even lower chance it would be better than your same Mythic piece. Other than that it's just running the same Mythic raid you're going to anyway.

If you're talking about there being a really great M+ piece for your class and you want a better version and facerolling the same +15 became tiring, fair enough, but that's hardly the most grindy thing we've had to do as Mythic raiders.

The only exceptions where I felt like I HAD TO do lesser content was before I had all the legendaries for my spec/class. I had all the ones for my spec in early Nighthold, I had all the ones for my class in early ToS. OR for my spec the CoF trinket was amazing and I needed to run NH on Normal/Heroic each week until I got it because ilevel didn't matter for that trinket.

Yeah. I'm talking about Mythic plus and needing to farm Mythic raids for an additional 3 months past where my guild would normally have collected BiS and logged until the new raid.

And I'm referring to Mythic plus as a way to farm because that was the best way to get to the ilvl required to clear Mythic within 2 months of the raid release.