[TV] Disney+ Star Wars: Obi-Wan Kenobi

[Darththeo]

I didn't redefine anything. I used the words as they are in the definition. Not 1 word was changed.

I don't get how he thinks you are redefining words.

And if not for his outright misrepresentation of Ghost's point, you'd be top of the list of statement he has responded to that he misunderstood.

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What is convenient for the scenario (and hence, to your argument) is that a military base is portrayed as acting with no basic safety regulations.

And let's not start the "incompetent Empire, dumbass stormtroopers" trope all over again. It's time they got rid of such shit in the scenarios and give the heroes some real challenges.

Yes, we can agree that the Empire being constantly portrayed as incompetent is getting annoying. It would be nice to see that changed.

I much rather see a competent Empire that the heroes have to beat rather than incompetent one where the heroes tend to win by luck rather than skill or outplanning.

Obi-wan and his "ally" literally invaded the Fortress without a solid plan and blundered their way to escape. It isn't like the first movie where it make sense that the heroes escaped the Death Star because we knew the goal of the Empire was to find the Rebel base. So, when they revealed they hid a tracker on the Falcon, it didn't come across as "Haha, I am covering my ass on why this appeared so easy!"

Reva had no idea that Obi-wan would come to save Leia, or that anyone would. I can understand her wanting to find the path, but why would she think someone would come to save Leia and let alone successfully get to her?

[Fencers]

A lot of bad acting and writing in this show. The direction is middling too. Editing and set design are carrying this material.

[Infinity Cubed]

And let's not start the "incompetent Empire, dumbass stormtroopers" trope all over again. It's time they got rid of such shit in the scenarios and give the heroes some real challenges.

I mean, if they did that, there'd be no more small-groups of ragtag heroes. They'd all be quashed within minutes. It'd be like pitting a random cropduster versus a fleet of military jet fighters with years of training and experience.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

That's not true at all lol.

There are a lot of other ways you could write things to be interesting without every minion enemy being a complete moron. You just can't have the heroes do something impossible constantly.

Think of the base in Rogue One! If you storm an Imperial base, at least some people should die.

[Infinity Cubed]

Think of the base in Rogue One! If you storm an Imperial base, at least some people should die.

Sorry, but that relied entirely on everyone in that base being an incompetent idiot from start to finish. Including the people who came up with security at a top secret research facility. They wouldn't have even gotten through the shield aperture if they tried what they did, let alone into the base itself and to the files.

[Endus]

Sorry, but that relied entirely on everyone in that base being an incompetent idiot from start to finish. Including the people who came up with security at a top secret research facility. They wouldn't have even gotten through the shield aperture if they tried what they did, let alone into the base itself and to the files.

Welcome to Star Wars.

Everyone's an idiot, all the time.

Imperials have shitty security and rebels walk into bases, like, literally whenever they feel like it, just by wearing a uniform or being super sneaky about hiding behind boxes.

Rebels build big bases they have no shot at defending against a concerted Imperial assault and they're really not even hidden so the moment the Imperials notice it's "uh oh, who'd a thunk it" time.

Nobody thinks about tracking devices, but everyone's slapping tracking devices on EVERYTHING.

Ben Kenobi lies his ass off to Luke for basically no reason and puts Luke in a lot of danger, apparently, for shits and giggles, when he could easily have just told the kid the truth. I'm strictly talking about Episode 1, here, and how Alec Guinness' dialogue is so fucking dumbass after all the prequel content's come out. Literally leaves Luke out to dry and at risk of falling to the Dark Side, just because he couldn't tell the kid that his dad's a monster, because reasons.

Yoda's just an idiot, like, all the time, but hey, he sounds like Kermit and talks with funny grammar so let's overlook Space Kermit's stupidity about everything all the time.

It's Star Wars. Everyone's a moron. It's a silly space opera and literally always has been. Lucas never aimed for high art; the story was always a hackneyed knockoff of samurai films (and westerns, which are knockoffs of samurai films). It's not even subtle; that's why there's swords and why Vader's helmet looks like a kabuto helmet kinda. He revolutionized special effects, for sure, and deserves all kinds of applause for that, but Star Wars has, from Star Wars, before A New Hope was added to the title, literally always been about style over substance.

At some point, you've got to realize there are tropes in play and you've just got to shut off that part of your brain and enjoy it for what it is. Or realize you really don't like Star Wars any more. Which is fine, I'm not arguing you should, but these complaints apply to every film and story in the setting. It's like complaining that gas tanks don't explode like they do in action movies, or that silencers don't turn a gunshot into a barely-audible "thupt".

[Celement]

Welcome to Star Wars.

Everyone's an idiot, all the time.

Imperials have shitty security and rebels walk into bases, like, literally whenever they feel like it, just by wearing a uniform or being super sneaky about hiding behind boxes.

Rebels build big bases they have no shot at defending against a concerted Imperial assault and they're really not even hidden so the moment the Imperials notice it's "uh oh, who'd a thunk it" time.

Nobody thinks about tracking devices, but everyone's slapping tracking devices on EVERYTHING.

Ben Kenobi lies his ass off to Luke for basically no reason and puts Luke in a lot of danger, apparently, for shits and giggles, when he could easily have just told the kid the truth. I'm strictly talking about Episode 1, here, and how Alec Guinness' dialogue is so fucking dumbass after all the prequel content's come out. Literally leaves Luke out to dry and at risk of falling to the Dark Side, just because he couldn't tell the kid that his dad's a monster, because reasons.

Yoda's just an idiot, like, all the time, but hey, he sounds like Kermit and talks with funny grammar so let's overlook Space Kermit's stupidity about everything all the time.

It's Star Wars. Everyone's a moron. It's a silly space opera and literally always has been. Lucas never aimed for high art; the story was always a hackneyed knockoff of samurai films (and westerns, which are knockoffs of samurai films). It's not even subtle; that's why there's swords and why Vader's helmet looks like a kabuto helmet kinda. He revolutionized special effects, for sure, and deserves all kinds of applause for that, but Star Wars has, from Star Wars, before A New Hope was added to the title, literally always been about style over substance.

At some point, you've got to realize there are tropes in play and you've just got to shut off that part of your brain and enjoy it for what it is. Or realize you really don't like Star Wars any more. Which is fine, I'm not arguing you should, but these complaints apply to every film and story in the setting.

True I do wish we had a good adaptation of the Thrawn character though. He was reintroduced into the lore but I'm not entirely sure they want to display imperials in a positive light at all so I think the character will be relegated to books.

It's kind if a shame I would love a really tactical focused space opera but outside of the expanse being kinda that it doesn't seem in the cards.

[Infinity Cubed]

Welcome to Star Wars.

Everyone's an idiot, all the time.

That was precisely my point.

If everyone was competent, no small ragtag band of rebels would stand a chance against the Empire. They're a galaxy-wide military force with the most state-of-the-art equipment and training available. It would, again, be equivalent to pitting a couple of farmhands flying around in an old, beat-up cropduster against an entire squadron of experienced military pilots in F-35s as the former tried to storm Area 51 or some other highly secure military base. It wouldn't matter how good those farmhands are at flying that cropduster, they'd be toast before they even saw a single fighter.

Star Wars literally relies on everyone being a moron, with the Imperials being ten times worse than everyone else.

[Endus]

That was precisely my point.

If everyone was competent, no small ragtag band of rebels would stand a chance against the Empire. They're a galaxy-wide military force with the most state-of-the-art equipment and training available. It would, again, be equivalent to pitting a couple of farmhands flying around in an old, beat-up cropduster against an entire squadron of experienced military pilots in F-35s as the former tried to storm Area 51 or some other highly secure military base. It wouldn't matter how good those farmhands are at flying that cropduster, they'd be toast before they even saw a single fighter.

Star Wars literally relies on everyone being a moron, with the Imperials being ten times worse than everyone else.

Yes, but the point is that these are genre conventions.

You're free to "not like Star Wars", by all means, but you can't really claim to be a Star Wars fan and reject the genre/setting conventions that define and shape Star Wars as a concept. The silliness is integral to the whole thing.

[Infinity Cubed]

Yes, but the point is that these are genre conventions.

You're free to "not like Star Wars", by all means, but you can't really claim to be a Star Wars fan and reject the genre/setting conventions that define and shape Star Wars as a concept. The silliness is integral to the whole thing.

What is it with the people on this forum not being able to keep up with a conversation they jump into?

Again: That was my fucking point. Star Wars is completely reliant on everyone, but especially the Empire, being full of incompetent idiots. It can't work if they're competent. So bitching and whining about how stupid the Imperials are and how ridiculous it is for Ben to walk out of one of their most secure bases with a little kid shuffling under his cloak is ridiculous. Star Wars has always been that way and only works that way. A galaxy spanning Empire with SOTA gear and unlimited resources would absolutely squash the Rebellion, let alone a handful of random nobodies trying to sneak into and out of their bases.

I'm not the one fucking complaining about it. Jesus Christ.

[Heathy]

it wouldn't matter if everyone was competent, the force itself shapes the outcome of basically every war. its like a self fulfilling prophecy. individual characters can play whatever role they want but at some point it simple cycles round again, the force is divine intervention, it wouldn't matter how competent you are if god doesn't like you, it'll find a way to screw you over even if it takes 6 movies. the sith will never achieve anything of substance because they are consumed entirely by their quest for power the only thing that matters to them. if there was no one to oppose them, they would simply fight each other. once they reach that point they see each other as threats.

I can overlook certain things like ppl getting lost in crowds, most of the imperial work force is likely concerned with not being choked out. everyone living in constant fear that a single mistake might be the end of them. that whole paradigm is completely unsustainable. doomed to fail, repeatedly. forever.

sneaking into bases seems to be possible just due to the overall arrogance of the empire they don't think anyone has the balls. anyone not supposed to be there would effectively be killed on sight so you simply wouldn't expect it, most of the time. not to mention this whole thing must be massive in scale, containing 100s of millions of ppl, perhaps even multiple billion, at a certain point it wouldn't be that hard to infiltrate something so massive, it would for sure have blind spots, openings in the security, or just complacency. they subjugate everyone so, its practically packed with sleeper agents. it can't be competent when there are only a handful of ppl who actually have any real faith in its success. most ppl doing just enough to not be killed, I would wager the vast majority are praying for liberation, or just any other reality.

the scene with them walking out of that base was kinda silly but so is reva not sensing leia as a force sensitive. but there we go, thats disney for you. there is room for these logical inconsistencies to exist if you imagine that the empire or the emperor deliberately leave themselves open to sabotage so they can goad and trap ppl when they try something. if it was ironclad, the measures required for success would be too extreme to try, or every mission would be a suicide mission. the sith aren't entirely inept but I think they are arrogant enough to create weaknesses for themselves that end up being exploited in ways they didn't intend or didn't see. they want ppl to try to test them. sideous is a master manipulator after all. the truth is they don't put much stock in individual strength, look at the death star, they knew it had a weakness, they barely entertained it. because they don't see an individual as being anything to be concerned with. they defend themselves very well against a force of equal strength, but they wouldn't see a small group or an individual as anything more than a fly they would easily swat. this arrogance ofc is ultimately their undoing.

[Biomega]

it wouldn't matter if everyone was competent, the force itself shapes the outcome of basically every war. its like a self fulfilling prophecy.

Nice try, Star Cabal. You won't fool us again!

[GreenJesus]

If Maul can survive getting cut in half, that little stabby-stab is nothing but a mere scratch.

Band-aid, lollipop, little kiss on the forehead and it's back into the fray.

I think cutting legs off is different than stabbing through organs. Lightsabers basically instantly cauterize wounds so you don't bleed out, but if a lightsaber goes through your heart or lungs you won't survive.

[Biomega]

Cutting someone in half surely hit a few organs. It all depends on where she stabbed. Looked like the gut to me.

Non-humans, too. Who knows what their internal structure looks like.

[PACOX]

Welcome to Star Wars.

Everyone's an idiot, all the time.

Imperials have shitty security and rebels walk into bases, like, literally whenever they feel like it, just by wearing a uniform or being super sneaky about hiding behind boxes.

Rebels build big bases they have no shot at defending against a concerted Imperial assault and they're really not even hidden so the moment the Imperials notice it's "uh oh, who'd a thunk it" time.

Nobody thinks about tracking devices, but everyone's slapping tracking devices on EVERYTHING.

Ben Kenobi lies his ass off to Luke for basically no reason and puts Luke in a lot of danger, apparently, for shits and giggles, when he could easily have just told the kid the truth. I'm strictly talking about Episode 1, here, and how Alec Guinness' dialogue is so fucking dumbass after all the prequel content's come out. Literally leaves Luke out to dry and at risk of falling to the Dark Side, just because he couldn't tell the kid that his dad's a monster, because reasons.

Yoda's just an idiot, like, all the time, but hey, he sounds like Kermit and talks with funny grammar so let's overlook Space Kermit's stupidity about everything all the time.

It's Star Wars. Everyone's a moron. It's a silly space opera and literally always has been. Lucas never aimed for high art; the story was always a hackneyed knockoff of samurai films (and westerns, which are knockoffs of samurai films). It's not even subtle; that's why there's swords and why Vader's helmet looks like a kabuto helmet kinda. He revolutionized special effects, for sure, and deserves all kinds of applause for that, but Star Wars has, from Star Wars, before A New Hope was added to the title, literally always been about style over substance.

At some point, you've got to realize there are tropes in play and you've just got to shut off that part of your brain and enjoy it for what it is. Or realize you really don't like Star Wars any more. Which is fine, I'm not arguing you should, but these complaints apply to every film and story in the setting. It's like complaining that gas tanks don't explode like they do in action movies, or that silencers don't turn a gunshot into a barely-audible "thupt".

Finally someone gets it

[Ashana Darkmoon]

I think there's a difference in selling imperial rot/decay vs not having any danger.

The idea that a massive empire is staffed with incompetent people is basically how every empire has always worked! Read about the US nuclear stockpile sometime! Or see the incompetence of Russian right now.

The believability issue comes from having some consequences though. Like in Rogue One, everyone dies (and a lot of extras!). Even the way the fleet battle plays out helps sell that point.

In the TV shows so far, all the protags seem basically untouchable (literally, in the case of Mando). Combine that with legacy chars in this show who we know can't die and the stakes are insanely low and boring.

[Elim Garak]

If empire is that incompetent... what does it say about the Rupublic? Or the Rebel Alliance? it took how many decades for the Rebels to finally turn Vader back to the Light?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

If empire is that incompetent... what does it say about the Rupublic? Or the Rebel Alliance? it took how many decades for the Rebels to finally turn Vader back to the Light?

The republic was incompetent that’s why it was so easy for the sith to take over.

The rebels less so but they were also playing with kids Gloves not wanting to be to extreme as shown in rebels and rouge one, also no one tries to turn Vader other then Luke every one else wanted him dead.

[Elim Garak]

The republic was incompetent that’s why it was so easy for the sith to take over.

The rebels less so but they were also playing with kids Gloves not wanting to be to extreme as shown in rebels and rouge one, also no one tries to turn Vader other then Luke every one else wanted him dead.

Which then brings us to the state of the universe in which protagonists are not more competent than the Empire. Relatively speaking. They are all on the same level of incompetency.

And this is something we saw in original Trilogy and it's something we miss in newer content.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Which then brings us to the state of the universe in which protagonists are not more competent than the Empire. Relatively speaking. They are all on the same level of incompetency.

And this is something we saw in original Trilogy and it's something we miss in newer content.

The OT quite regularly shows the rebels to be more competent. Getting the Death Star plans away, sneaking into the Death Star, blowing up the Death Star, escaping cloud city, getting teddy bears to help destroy the second Death Star, ect. Then when you a count for added material around the OT like shows an comics the list grows by miles.

The empire on the other hand have like what? Finding the two rebel bases and then abunch of failed traps like cloud city and the second Death Star?