Anybody else honestly believe WoD was better?

[Stardrift]

MoP... dumbed down? In what universe? Sure, WoD did that a bit after MoP, but it was still decently close to the peak in MoP. It's gotten worse every expansion since.

The.. talent trees..? The gutting of many abilities? The utter destruction of what was left of hybrid specs?

Classes had fun abilities in MoP, but they were still most definitely severely dumbed down.

[Tradu]

The.. talent trees..? The gutting of many abilities? The utter destruction of what was left of hybrid specs?

Classes had fun abilities in MoP, but they were still most definitely severely dumbed down.

MoP specs had the most depth out of any expansion, and it's only been downhill since. The pre-MoP talent trees were trash(there was effectively 0 choice or per-fight customization, the only thing pre-Cata talents allowed were meme hybrid builds). "Hybrid" specs hadn't been good since TBC, being specialized into a role is and was superior.

[Stardrift]

MoP specs had the most depth out of any expansion, and it's only been downhill since. The pre-MoP talent trees were trash(there was effectively 0 choice or per-fight customization, the only thing pre-Cata talents allowed were meme hybrid builds). "Hybrid" specs hadn't been good since TBC, being specialized into a role is and was superior.

I agree that the talent trees are bad. Players always devolved into cookie cutter meta builds.

But came MoP was the removal of a lot of abilities and hybrid specs. You could not borrow points from another spec. Reworks happened which made some specs fun and even more specs horrible.

Hybrid specs weren't good. That's true. But they still added customization. It was still there to do if you didn't care about your performance in raids. It helped with soloing dungeons and raids. It had multiple purposes other than being at the top of the charts.

But that's not what we're discussing here. We're discussing the fact that MoP ruined more classes than they fixed. And it only got much worse from there on out.


Also, don't act like you don't use icy veins or similar websites to pick the best abilities off of the post-MoP talent slider. Seems pretty cookie cutter to me.

[Andonais]

If WoD had BFA levels of content it wouldn't have been anywhere near as bad

[Lolites]

I couldn't have said it better myself. Yes, I would absolutely prefer to worry about legendary ring questline components for the first month after a release of a raid tier rather than be on an AP treadmill for the entire expansion.

Even if you're looking at Apexis gear, compare that shit to Benthic gear; you have to roll for right stats, WF/TF, gemslot, etc etc all this bullshit. Apexis gear's only sin was being a bit too expensive.

first MONTH? you are either joking or you havent done the q line back then you wouldnt be even done with the ring itself after month, after which you "had to" (as much as now) keep grinding for the item to improve the ring...

as for "ap treadmil" well by doing dungeons and raids (which you do anyway for gear) you can remain at reasonable level, ofc you wont hit the top but unless you raid mythic world first race you dnot NEED to - i never did more islands than weekly cap and other wq than those giving gear or needed for emisary yet im at lvl 79heart from just m+ and raids... and if you dont want to do dungeons or raids WHY ON EARTH would you even need to level the heart?

- - - Updated - - -

Considering grinding apexis was entirely optional, except the 5k for the ring, which really wasn't bad, and most importantly once you did that you were done(something both Legion and BfA sorely lacked). And most of the legendary mats came from raiding, so yeah, that's much better than AP.

unless you aim for world first mythic race doing raids and m+ gives you enough azerite to remain competitive... im at lvl 79 and i never did more islands than weekly cap (thats like half an hour a week) or any wq other than emisaries (not always) or those with gear reward, lets say thats another 20-30m a day, so together with islands its 2,5 - 4h a week (and thats not only for azerite), + raids and dungeons you would do anyway to get geared, what a horrible grind...

[kaminaris]

Windwalker, Demonology, Blood. 3 of the best designed specs the game has ever seen, with most of the rest being MoP specs. Then there's specs like Mistweaver and Subtlety which were better than they've been since, but not necessarily top spec designs of all time.

No no no no. Best spec in the game is current demo. No spec in entire history can hold a candle, neither MoP, nor WoD nor Legion, nothing.

[Marrilaife]

Not sure why you're quoting me there, I'm not the one blocking people for their preference on expansions or calling people delusional fanbois.

Haha that's a funny reason to put people on ignore list. However everyone can put on ignore anyone they want, even if in the end they just see blank pages of "ignored post, ignored post, ignored post".

Does MMO-champ ignore has a cap, like in wow in-game one? I hope not. Mine is full of people who not just state their preferences about something, but are also very rude, trolly or outright lie about facts to bend them to their liking (classic vs retail and faction balance ratios are 2 things where people behave as if facts can be changed to suit the narrative of the speaking subject).

When it comes to WOD, yes, it did lack content and it did lack at least 1 major patch if not 2, it had fewer raids than other expacs, so I'm not gloryfying it. But it had things that were better than now, especially in class design and profession design aspect, I could craft USEFUL stuff with savage / fel blood while in BFA all crafted gear is trash. Only people who hated it were herbing multiboxers because people didn't have to rely on them and their prices.

I much preferred WOD's brewmaster, WOD's shadow priest, WOD's marksmanship and few other specs in comparison to what they became in Legion and BFA.

[Biomega]

Wait what? You realize that the vast majority of BRF is recycled from the lower half of Siege of Orgrimmar right?

So what? Does that make any less visually impressive? The aesthetic worked. Heck in this case it even made sense lore-wise that it would look similar, given that Garrosh brought his tech with him. I honestly don't care if something is reused or recycled as long as it WORKS. Good copy > bad original.

[TheRainman]

Short answer, no.

Long answer :

Raids : BRF was good. BoD was better imo. Overall I would say BfA raids are more enjoyable

Dungeon : I enjoyed WoD dungeons. But lacking mythic + they became irrelevant quickly

Leveling/Questing : About the same for me on both expansions. I guess overall I like the theme of Zandalar/Kul Tiras a little better

Class design : Both are pretty terrible and stale. WoD classes were way overpruned. A few specs might of felt better but I would not say that was not the norm. There’s no winner in this category imo.

Grind : BfA takes grinding to the extreme. It’s the least alt friend expansion to date. So I would agree any expansion is better in this regard

Extra systems : Island Expeditions and Warfronts are total duds. But Garrisons and Trashcan were actually painful.

Story : BfA story is pretty bad minus the Jaina arc. WoD was meme levels of terrible. The whole alternative history story felt pointless and was impossible to be invested in.

So overall no, I can’t say WoD is better.

Agree pretty much point by point.

[Edgeta]

Honestly I'd say whichever felt worse to you depends on what you like to do in the game. For me I usually play through the story aspects of it then once I've seen most of it (I'll never be able to play enough to be a high end raider for example) I start leveling alts and do that for much of the latter portion of an expansion. I've never been one to try and max out a character as much as I can with repeated activities. Because of that I find BfA MUCH worse because of how bad working on alts feels. Part of that is because I don't have flying this time around (first time I haven't gotten it) due to all the rep gating needed for it.

[LilSaihah]

first MONTH? you are either joking or you havent done the q line back then you wouldnt be even done with the ring itself after month, after which you "had to" (as much as now) keep grinding for the item to improve the ring...

You have to kill Archimonde once a week and once you've done the 'basic' progression that's all the game says you 'need' to do, for a legendary ring which you don't even get until you kill Archimonde, i.e. beaten the game.
Compared to Artifacts which you have to deal with for the entire expansion. Do you think that getting Legendary components from HFC was worse than Maw of Souls farming in Suramar, or getting your Azerite Powers and immediately losing them once you upgraded to a new piece? Be honest.
And again we're ignoring the rest of the gearing for the expansion. RNG legendaries in Legion? Titanforging in both Legion and BFA? Azerite Powers which required you to farm specific content? Actually having tier sets in WoD vs no tier sets in BFA? Would you really prefer those over "oh I got bad numbers on my legendary shard drops"?

[ano2024]

The last patch will likely determine the real outcome of how we will view WoD later on.

Right now, BFA is worse than WoD in my eyes.

This was the last patch, there is no 8.3.5.

[Zyky]

So what? Does that make any less visually impressive? The aesthetic worked. Heck in this case it even made sense lore-wise that it would look similar, given that Garrosh brought his tech with him. I honestly don't care if something is reused or recycled as long as it WORKS. Good copy > bad original.

No copy is good, ever. Nobody enjoys seeing the same garbage aesthetic after spending 14 months in Siege of Orgrimmar.

[Zka]

WoD was better because: The classes were better in WoD.

WHO THE FUCK CARES how your class plays when you don't have more than 2 hours per week worth of content to play it? Seriously, WoDwasbetter people drive me mad. Oh my shiny skill buttons, how I love them, I wish there was a reason to use them, sadly I have to log out after being bored to tears in my garrison.

And the so-called "content" that BfA has is shit. Island expeditions, warfronts etc... are just shit, pure shit

Good job leaving out the most replayable and most enjoyable pve content that actually makes sense and keeps many people playing all through the expansion.

Hell, with the cancer of 8.3 and the way corrupted gear is wrapped within many layers of RNG (right tier, right effect, right slot etc...), we could say the RNG now is worse than ever.

WTF you managed to say something that is actually true.

[Splenda]

Lol no.

But, to me, nothing is as bad as Cata was.

[Taeldorian]

Honestly I think both are trash.

Gearing in WoD was 100x better than now. PvPers could actually gear through pvp and choose what they wanna buy instead of being given 3 staffs and 2 bracers from the last 30 arenas. Same goes for pve, you raided to get gear. Class sets were still a thing which was huge, gem sockets were random but that and 5 ilvls were the only randomization in the game. Raiding was good.

Outside of that WoD had nothing else.

BfA on the other hand has the most abysmal gearing I’ve ever seen in the entire time I’ve played WoW (13 years now). Gem sockets RNG, item level (was) RNG, tertiary stats are RNG (leech is big for healers), and now these random bonuses that dictate how well your character does because they’re so badly tuned and broken are completely random with multiple levels of random. It’s actually garbage. The story was pretty awful, N’zoths ending was a huge disappointment. Only storyline I liked was Jainas. Raiding was decent (mythic). Class sets were removed. The “play every day or your behind” design grew further.

I’d say both were equal levels of unenjoyable. I stuck with BfA only because I joined this guild in legion during argus mythic progression and I’ve now known most of these people for 2 years. It was also my first expansion mythic raiding from start to end so I wanted to stick with it. Otherwise I would’ve quit after BoD.

[Lolites]

You have to kill Archimonde once a week and once you've done the 'basic' progression that's all the game says you 'need' to do, for a legendary ring which you don't even get until you kill Archimonde, i.e. beaten the game.
Compared to Artifacts which you have to deal with for the entire expansion. Do you think that getting Legendary components from HFC was worse than Maw of Souls farming in Suramar, or getting your Azerite Powers and immediately losing them once you upgraded to a new piece? Be honest.
And again we're ignoring the rest of the gearing for the expansion. RNG legendaries in Legion? Titanforging in both Legion and BFA? Azerite Powers which required you to farm specific content? Actually having tier sets in WoD vs no tier sets in BFA? Would you really prefer those over "oh I got bad numbers on my legendary shard drops"?

well i thought when you talk about "ap grind" you talk about, you know, ap, not other things, but i see you run out of arguments in that field so you changed it... so let me humor you:
1. im sure legion have huge impact on comparison of wod and bfa... ecept it doesnt? legion have zero impact on which one, WoD or BFA are better or worse, so moot
2. thunderforging later renamed to warforging and then titanforging was ingame since pandaria so in wod too, although it got more "crazy" (cant think of better word)
but you had to be lucky as hell to het any high ilvl increase... on the other hand, in wod you could LITERALLY sit on your ass in garrison and get raid level gear from followers mission...
3. what people see so amazing about tier sets? they were literaly passive bonuses, so prety much the same as azerite traits, except ywithout choice, and you needed precise piece of gear, exactly as with azerite... regrinding azerite sure was stupid and should be handled differently, but due to important traits being on lower lvl of azerite and higher being just utility/survivabiliy and lastly ilvl increase, it was not such a problem, and it was changed in later patch, or that doesnt count even hough its still in bfa?

and all the farming you mention was NOT NECESSARY, sure for people who want to reach the top its needed they play more, but i fail to see a problem in allowing people to spend more time to get better results... thats how mmorpg always worked and SHOULD work, you can play less and be competitive or play more and rise to the top, there was never a period in wow (or afaik any other mmorpg) where that wasnt a thing...

[DemonDays]

WoD was better.

Better gameplay = whole game is better.

You can throw all of the content(shit) you want at me in BfA. But if I don't enjoy driving the vehicle I use to experience that content then I don't enjoy anything else.

[Doffen]

WoD was bad. BfA medicore. To think they managed to make the best/second best expansion between those is a miracle. Legion was awesome until the end when character progression went easy mode. But then again last patch gave us Allied Races. Which was a good move.

S: The Burning Crusade, Legion
A: WotLK
B:
C:
D: Cata, BfA, MoP
E: WoD, Vanilla

[Tradu]

I agree that the talent trees are bad. Players always devolved into cookie cutter meta builds.

But came MoP was the removal of a lot of abilities and hybrid specs. You could not borrow points from another spec. Reworks happened which made some specs fun and even more specs horrible.

Hybrid specs weren't good. That's true. But they still added customization. It was still there to do if you didn't care about your performance in raids. It helped with soloing dungeons and raids. It had multiple purposes other than being at the top of the charts.

But that's not what we're discussing here. We're discussing the fact that MoP ruined more classes than they fixed. And it only got much worse from there on out.


Also, don't act like you don't use icy veins or similar websites to pick the best abilities off of the post-MoP talent slider. Seems pretty cookie cutter to me.

The difference is that the current talents are set up to be changed on a per fight basis, depending on your group's needs(even if Blizzard have been absolute trash at balancing them). The old talents didn't really have that potential.
I completely disagree that MoP made more specs bad than good. MoP(especially 5.4) was the expansion with the best overall spec quality.

- - - Updated - - -

unless you aim for world first mythic race doing raids and m+ gives you enough azerite to remain competitive... im at lvl 79 and i never did more islands than weekly cap (thats like half an hour a week) or any wq other than emisaries (not always) or those with gear reward, lets say thats another 20-30m a day, so together with islands its 2,5 - 4h a week (and thats not only for azerite), + raids and dungeons you would do anyway to get geared, what a horrible grind...

I personally don't mind doing emissaries and weekly islands, but AP definitely significantly contributed to people I play with no longer wanting to play(which in turn hurts my enjoyment)

- - - Updated - - -

WHO THE FUCK CARES how your class plays when you don't have more than 2 hours per week worth of content to play it? Seriously, WoDwasbetter people drive me mad. Oh my shiny skill buttons, how I love them, I wish there was a reason to use them, sadly I have to log out after being bored to tears in my garrison.


Good job leaving out the most replayable and most enjoyable pve content that actually makes sense and keeps many people playing all through the expansion.

I'd rather play a fun class for 2 hours per week(with the option of having alts of that same class to also play) and spend the rest of my time on other classes or games than shitty classes that I have to play in shitty content for 10 hours a week.

Warfronts were so enjoyable and replayable that Blizzard ditched them within the first patch with the exception of adding copies with bigger numbers. I do think islands are okay content, but AP(reward structure in general) drags them down a lot.

- - - Updated - - -

well i thought when you talk about "ap grind" you talk about, you know, ap, not other things, but i see you run out of arguments in that field so you changed it... so let me humor you:
1. im sure legion have huge impact on comparison of wod and bfa... ecept it doesnt? legion have zero impact on which one, WoD or BFA are better or worse, so moot
2. thunderforging later renamed to warforging and then titanforging was ingame since pandaria so in wod too, although it got more "crazy" (cant think of better word)
but you had to be lucky as hell to het any high ilvl increase... on the other hand, in wod you could LITERALLY sit on your ass in garrison and get raid level gear from followers mission...
3. what people see so amazing about tier sets? they were literaly passive bonuses, so prety much the same as azerite traits, except ywithout choice, and you needed precise piece of gear, exactly as with azerite... regrinding azerite sure was stupid and should be handled differently, but due to important traits being on lower lvl of azerite and higher being just utility/survivabiliy and lastly ilvl increase, it was not such a problem, and it was changed in later patch, or that doesnt count even hough its still in bfa?

and all the farming you mention was NOT NECESSARY, sure for people who want to reach the top its needed they play more, but i fail to see a problem in allowing people to spend more time to get better results... thats how mmorpg always worked and SHOULD work, you can play less and be competitive or play more and rise to the top, there was never a period in wow (or afaik any other mmorpg) where that wasnt a thing...

Set bonuses changed each tier at least, that alone makes them better than azerite.