Is Classic too easy?

[Lolites]

Its not that classic is easy. Its that the strategies have been perfected over 15 years as has bis gear.

more like its not like vanila was EVER hard, people just had no fucking clue what they are doing, now that they do, its piss easy... and no offense, but bis gear sure hleps but is by no way nacessary, MC was cleared in half empty raids with people in green gear that were not even leveled up to cap

[keldarepewpew]

Wrnt in and one shot everything idk it felt more like a nostalgia tripp then hard content.

[Whistl3r]

Arguing that invested time equals difficulty, what even is this? You can literally run through classics most difficulty content with your hands tied playing with your dick.

You LITERALLY cant. Don't be a wally.

[d00mh4cker]

It is what it is, I've presented my reasoning, go ahead and argue agaisnt it if you want. Repeating that phrase won't change anyone's mind.



They finished the game.. that isn't fully released yet? The experience of dedicated guilds does not reflect the experience of average players. And anyone who got to max level in such short time is extremely dedicated compared to the average player.

But do tell me: How long does it take to clear LFR? Especially considering you can pay to instantly get a max level character.



Then you should calm down and read what I'm actually saying. My argument is not that Classic is hardcore or that Classic is hard. My argument is that both games are "easy" for an average MMORPG player, but Classic is harder.



Why? That's comparing how hard it can be, not how hard it is. If Dark Souls had an "easy mode" where you are literally unkillable, it would never have become famous as one of the hardest modern games, even if its current difficulty was still available as a "normal" or "hard" mode.

The majority of people don't seek a "real challenge", they play the game on the base or easiest setting, so that's how hard the game will be for the average player.



I didn't. I argued that they are harder. And don't forget we are talking about all dungeons in the game, not just endgame.

Comparing the most difficult content to LFR in retail. I rest my case.

[Whistl3r]

more like its not like vanila was EVER hard, people just had no fucking clue what they are doing, now that they do, its piss easy... and no offense, but bis gear sure hleps but is by no way nacessary, MC was cleared in half empty raids with people in green gear that were not even leveled up to cap

Because if you know EXACTLY what to do a guild that has been clearing MC for years on private servers can of course just walk in and clear it. If you didn't you'd wipe horribly. Knowledge is power.

[Tyrannica]

Classic has extremely little content if you're not a raider or a serious PvP:er, however I'm beginning to feel that the content it does have is way too easy. Raids are cleared the first reset by most guilds and then you're back to raid logging for farm raids that are almost as easy as LFR is in retail.
It doesn't give you a sense of accomplishment and the character progression is extremely slow, with new gear upgrades coming at you about once a month.
It's starting to feel like, what's the point if there's no challenge?

If you don't mainly pvp in classic, you do it wrong, dude.

Raids are just like retail rng lootboxes to help you out in your great campaign to kill the enemy faction, the point is an more immersive faction pvp than what we saw in BfA which, without pvp warfronts horrible failed its purpose of a faction vs faction expansion as advertised before its launch.

I wonder, how the game director of BfA could do so many wrongs with so much expierence - i know Ion is merely a raid designer guy, but hat is what you get, retail is only raids and the same mythic+ dungeons, but merely only raids.

Everything else is stripped off it - immersion, that faction vs faction feeling, class design, pvp in itself.


What we got now are 2 impferfect versions of wow, while retail could very well achieve some sort of perfection, if any retail version of wow would learn from its past and stop implementing new systems over systems that work like a spreadsheet.

[Lolites]

Because if you know EXACTLY what to do a guild that has been clearing MC for years on private servers can of course just walk in and clear it. If you didn't you'd wipe horribly. Knowledge is power.

of course
but if someone with a lot of practice can walk in with half empty raid in greens with unleveled people and clear it without wipe, SURELY any average raiding guild can clear it with full raid of leveled and decently geared people without any issues... BIS gear is in no way necessary for that, and boss fights in classic are not that difficult to grasp...

[d00mh4cker]

Because if you know EXACTLY what to do a guild that has been clearing MC for years on private servers can of course just walk in and clear it. If you didn't you'd wipe horribly. Knowledge is power.

The thing is, you dont have to have 15 years of practice, watching a vid of a guild clearing it on youtube is enough for every casual guild to one shot BWL.

Majority of the guilds who entered BWL has now cleared it, while in retail only 9 guild have cleared Ny'Alotha, the mojoirty is stuck at 3/12 bosses.
Strategies are there for everyone to watch on youtube.

This "ofcourse they are clearing BWL first reset, they have been practicing for 15 YEARSSS!!!!111" is just stupid.

The guilds who have practiced for years (Nostalrius 2015) cleared it in 30 min.
Serious guilds cleared it in hours.
So-so casual guilds cleared it in a couple of days. Mostly because they only raid on weekends.
Raid loggers cleared it first reset. Because they only raid on weekends.

[Wysmark]

All PvE content that is not endgame raiding or mythic dungeons in retail is ridiculously piss easy, even compared to classic.
Basically, non-instanced content has become pretty much irrelevant in retail. You just have to work through it for leveling, farming WQ's etc.
Not that world content in classic is hard, but at least you have to watch your step. And the whole leveling process in classic is simply a lot more fun and adventurous.

True, but when you geared up such was always the case. After all the outside world should be accessible to everyone, although the game could use a few more Devilsaurs or similar roaming around killing the unwary

As for Classic I haven't even found out how to download it yet , but looking back everything was pretty simple (well except getting Tomes for high level abilities to drop). I reckon I died a lot back then because it was before I used addons other than threatmeter and because it was a new game for me.

I remember Classic as hard, but it won't challenge me now I'm sure... hence I likely won't bother

[Whistl3r]

People were not stupid or unskilled in vanilla but raids still took a while to clear. Clearing AQ and Naxx was out of the reach of 99% of all players.
If people are struggling with current content now then I cant see how they are any different to the people who struggled 15 years ago. Its all in your head.

[Unholyground]

All WoW is easy, period. Literally was never difficult after Vanilla happened and people started understanding the mechanics of everything more and more. Video games are all pretty damn easy over time.

[Greyvax]

The same thing happened when EverQuest released their progression servers (basically wow classic, but it gradually opened up expansions every few months).

A handful of guilds just steamrolled the raid bosses with a quickness, whereas in the original days of the game, it took much longer to conquer. Completely due to the infinite amount of knowledge gained since that time.

[Lolites]

People were not stupid or unskilled in vanilla

i played back then, and trust me, majority of people back then were stupid and unskilled

[Kolvarg]

was never difficult after Vanilla happened and people started understanding the mechanics of everything more and more

Of course WoW is easy for people who have been playing it for years. But is it fair to make a broad statement that something is easy because it feels easy for someone experienced?

A professional marathon runner will probably find it easy to run 10km under 1 hour, but is running 10km under 1 hour "easy" for someone unexperienced? For the average person, at least the average unfit person, it is nigh impossible, or at least quite hard.

The same way, would someone with zero experience in MMORPGs find WoW easy? What about someone with zero experience in RPGs in general? Or someone with experience only on mobile games?


There is a distinction between how difficult it is to learn something and how difficult it is to "perform" that thing, for sure. But I think when making a general statement like "x is hard" both sides of the coin should be considered. But in general saying something is either "hard" or "easy" is very subjective, and can vary a lot depending on what you are comparing it to.

[Unholyground]

Of course WoW is easy for people who have been playing it for years. But is it fair to make a broad statement that something is easy because it feels easy for someone experienced?

A professional marathon runner will probably find it easy to run 10km under 1 hour, but is running 10km under 1 hour "easy" for someone unexperienced? For the average person, at least the average unfit person, it is nigh impossible, or at least quite hard.

The same way, would someone with zero experience in MMORPGs find WoW easy? What about someone with zero experience in RPGs in general? Or someone with experience only on mobile games?


There is a distinction between how difficult it is to learn something and how difficult it is to "perform" that thing, for sure. But I think when making a general statement like "x is hard" both sides of the coin should be considered. But in general saying something is either "hard" or "easy" is very subjective, and can vary a lot depending on what you are comparing it to.

All games are easy to me personally but I have been gaming since I was 4.

[Superdon]

Remember when you were in Kindergarten learning math for the first time? Your classmates and yourself had no real clue what was going on, but collectively you figured it out with the help of your teachers, then you ran home with excitement showing your parents how good you are at adding 1+1.

Imagine going back to Kindergarten 15 years later expecting to be excited about learning how to add again.

I love this analogy. it's spot on!

[Tyrannica]

People were not stupid or unskilled in vanilla but raids still took a while to clear. Clearing AQ and Naxx was out of the reach of 99% of all players.
If people are struggling with current content now then I cant see how they are any different to the people who struggled 15 years ago. Its all in your head.

Yeah, and current classic patch version isn't even tuned to do old raids, so thats why its easier, other than dated content with a few mechanics.

How difficult raids are in classic will be seen in AQ and Naxx, some people that played that on private servers will have no problems with that, but most probably will see a "few wipes" more than they are used to in current classic raids.

Other than that, the game is more about an unscaled and clean wow expierence, retail wow has too many untransparent systems, like pvp scaling for example or any scaling elswhere in the open world depending on ilvl. How abilties work in pvp and pve.

Classic is simpler and more transparent in that regard.

I'd prefere the tbc or mop systems a little bit more, tho, but its still better than retail wow.

Ofc, raid will be always better in retail wow and artwork - default interface and so on, but what annoys me is, that retail could learn from the past and become actually superior to any old version of wow, instead its just a different game, not necessarly better. There is more to do? But is that content fun or feels more like a job you just have to do to not fall behind?

In any case, simpler systems as shown in cataclysm and WoD, helped managing alts and have fun with them.

Thinking about what kind of system grind one awaits in BfA, if you dare to alt anything must be a nightmare. And in my opinion account wide essences are just the top of the iceberg. The cloak upgrades done by limited attempts in visions and corruption gear mechanic seems more an alt nightmare than anything else to stay competetive. And both is merely just timegated.

Why not make the best wow possible on each field with clear and transparent systems?

[Ielenia]

Does the reason why people are being carried really matter to whether the fact people are being carried say something about the difficulty?

It does, actually. One is because the instance is simple and easy enough that you can bring "busybodies" just to fill up 40 people (Classic), and the other is because the group has become experienced enough with the raid to be able to bring extra "busybodies".

Which is precisely what LFR does for the majority of bosses, while completely automating everything else for you. Click a button, wait, attack a target dummy and get loot.

Oh, talking about classic? I thought you were talking about modern WoW.

Those are a lot of claims without any evidence

Yeah, you're just being an antagonist just for the sake of being an antagonist at this point.

It can be argued. Doesn't mean it necessarily is. Certainly does not mean it must be considered that way when assessing overall difficulty.

You're flip-flopping. First you argue that we should compare the games at their base difficulties, and now you're arguing that modern WoW's difficulty should only be considered at below its base difficulty.

Time = Effort.

False. Time does not equal effort, because, once again: classic does not have a time limit to reach max level.

I fail to see where, do quote me.

I demanded nothing. You said one is able to aqcuire evidence. I suggested you did so yourself. If you can't or don't want to, move on.

And what exactly is that claim of mine you are talking about?

"Group quests are easy and soloable in modern WoW".

Now who's being arrogant?

It's "arrogant" now to just consider yourself "just above average"? Are you for real?

[Whistl3r]

i played back then, and trust me, majority of people back then were stupid and unskilled

Good for you. Personally I was still using every resource I could to get the most dps, was still collecting collecting wold buffs and consuambles. I just had less resources and confirmed data to work with. The demographic of my guild then and now is still a very similar in terms of those carrying and those being carried.

[d00mh4cker]

Of course WoW is easy for people who have been playing it for years. But is it fair to make a broad statement that something is easy because it feels easy for someone experienced?

A professional marathon runner will probably find it easy to run 10km under 1 hour, but is running 10km under 1 hour "easy" for someone unexperienced? For the average person, at least the average unfit person, it is nigh impossible, or at least quite hard.

The same way, would someone with zero experience in MMORPGs find WoW easy? What about someone with zero experience in RPGs in general? Or someone with experience only on mobile games?


There is a distinction between how difficult it is to learn something and how difficult it is to "perform" that thing, for sure. But I think when making a general statement like "x is hard" both sides of the coin should be considered. But in general saying something is either "hard" or "easy" is very subjective, and can vary a lot depending on what you are comparing it to.

Exactly, running 10km under 1 hour isn't easy. For some people it might be, but not for casuals. Exactly.
But it should be right? There are tons of information about running, shoes, techniques, tutorials, so much information about running.

So how come casuals who usually dont run just can't get out there and run 10km? Because it's not easy and requires a lot of training.

But not classic. Same as running, it has been done for a long time, knowledge about it is out there, still casuals who havent played vanilla, or like some of my friends who have only played FPS games before, ran through BWL in a couple of hours.

So how is this possible you might ask?

Well, running 10km under an hour is more difficult then roflstomping BWL. Because BWL is a joke.