Is Classic too easy?

[Aleksej89]

Classic is hard if you do not know what you are doing.

Similar to something like dark souls or monster hunter... its more about knowing how/what to do.

Once you know it is rather easy to do it.

[Dalinos]

My guild had a few that had played in vanilla but no PS, and about 3 who played PS. Mostly if not all retail players. Smashed our way through every boss on like, day 2? Took a few hours. Now clearing in about an hour and are SUPER casual raid loggers.

Your reasoning explains the handful who cleared in under 1 hour on day 1, but doesnt really explain the 1500+ guilds who cleared it day 1, with countless players / guilds having little to no experience.

edit: Just to be clear, i have said this countless times, but i do NOT consider this a problem, issue, or negative at all - in fact its the reason myself, and a shitload of other people enjoy classic - its stupidly easy and always was, and although many of us committed to or dabbled in genuinely challenging content over the years, vanillas / classics brain-dead raids still hold some appeal.

Mah dude, you call them "Brain-dead raids", but I will expose you to the following.

The year is 2021, Shadowlands is released. 1st boss in the 1st raid has the following mechanics:

Stacking debuff on the tank, you need a tank swap to take care of it.
Stacking debuff on the DPSers, you need to stop DPS, LoS the boss and get rid of your stacks, otherwise you will die.
Intermission phase where the boss becomes untargettable, adds spawn, you gotta get em down ASAP.
20% boss enrages, increasing the speed at which he debuffs, it's an execute phase, gotta burn him down or he burns down both the tanks (cant tank-switch properly) and the DPS (can't reset debuffs cause you'll just wipe).

Pretty standard mechanics, right? Noone in today's world would call this complicated, these are all run-of-the-mill mechanics that we have been exposed to & have dealt with in numerous raids, during numerous expansions, on numerous bossfights.

HOWEVER

Golemagg the Incinerator, Molten Core. 1st boss ever in the game where a tank switch is introduced as a mechanic due to stacking debuff.
Ragnaros the Firelord, Molten Core. 2nd boss ever in the game where a tank switch is required, 1st boss in the game who disappears and calls adds that need to be DPS'ed down (intermission phase, Sons of Flame)

Drakes in BWL - Multiple run-of-the-mill mechanics made their 1st appearance on these 3 drakes. Tank switches are continued, Firemaw gives us the first boss ever that needs DPS to hold back and reset their stacks, while healing themselves with bandages to ease up the strain on the healers. Ebonroc had the first tank-swap mechanic which WASNT a stacking debuff like Rag or Golemagg, but a nasty debuff that HEALS THE BOSS (WTF? 1st time seeing this as well).

Chrommagus in BWL - 1st boss in the entire game who has a soft-enrage mechanic, basicly the 1st Execute phase the game introduced. Undispellable, increased attack speed, increased rate at which he does his abilities (if I remember correctly, don't quote me about that last part).

You get my point mate? These mechanics are not hard, and never will be hard, because we're used to them. They are only brain-dead raids in TODAYS standards - there are guilds on my server who have difficulties tank-switching and stopping DPS to reset their debuffs. It's easy for you and me, and our guilds, and anyone who has raided in Retail from TBC onwards (TBC was the 1st time we had multiple complex mechanics on bossfights, got carried through till today in BFA). But in 2004-2005 when we were 13 years old and had never seen this in our entire lives? World of Warcraft was the 1st ever MMORPG I played, and my experience with RPG's before WoW was purely Japanese - Pokemon & Breath of Fire on the Gameboy, and Final Fantasy VII, VIII and IX on the Playstation 1.

For the population back THEN, they were complex mechanics. For the population TODAY, they are not. It's like me, with a Master's degree in Economics, being examined on 9th grade Calculus. I won't break a sweat. But 9th grade Calculus in 9th grade, was not super easy (it was ok), and required some studying. 15 years later? I can do it with my eyes closed.

[Nachtigal]

Classic is easier than vanilla as it was in it’s time. Blizzard fumbled when they decided to choose the last patch of the game as far as class balance goes. Classes were at their strongest, raids at their weakest. I wish Blizzard would’ve gone ahead and re-tune everything so that it at least had some minuscule amount of challenge to it.

Yes, 15 years of knowledge blah blah. Doesn’t detract from my point. I’m glad they released classic. Had they not, I’d probably not have gotten back into retail. Playing through classic up to 60 and clearing MC really made me appreciate the additions in retail.

[Demithio]

Very different time period. TBC should up the bar quite a bit in difficulty level, as long as they dont implement the nerf patch. I'm not playing Classic right now as I've been there - done that x1000. TBC on the other hand, Im there (if and when it releases).

[Necromantic]

Very different time period. TBC should up the bar quite a bit in difficulty level, as long as they dont implement the nerf patch. I'm not playing Classic right now as I've been there - done that x1000. TBC on the other hand, Im there (if and when it releases).

I enjoyed Classic for a little nostalgia but TBC really fixed a lot of things for the better. The only things better in Classic (in my eyes) was PVP. World raids were awesome and vanilla BGs were such a blast. Take out the scrub, bottom-feeding twinks and it was the most fun of any PVP I've had in the game.

[Geary]

I enjoyed Classic for a little nostalgia but TBC really fixed a lot of things for the better. The only things better in Classic (in my eyes) was PVP. World raids were awesome and vanilla BGs were such a blast. Take out the scrub, bottom-feeding twinks and it was the most fun of any PVP I've had in the game.

Seconded. Nesingwary's camp on Bleeding Hollow was guaranteed PvP action throughout most of Vanilla.

[arkanon]

Mah dude, you call them "Brain-dead raids", but I will expose you to the following.

The year is 2021, Shadowlands is released. 1st boss in the 1st raid has the following mechanics:

Stacking debuff on the tank, you need a tank swap to take care of it.
Stacking debuff on the DPSers, you need to stop DPS, LoS the boss and get rid of your stacks, otherwise you will die.
Intermission phase where the boss becomes untargettable, adds spawn, you gotta get em down ASAP.
20% boss enrages, increasing the speed at which he debuffs, it's an execute phase, gotta burn him down or he burns down both the tanks (cant tank-switch properly) and the DPS (can't reset debuffs cause you'll just wipe).

Pretty standard mechanics, right? Noone in today's world would call this complicated, these are all run-of-the-mill mechanics that we have been exposed to & have dealt with in numerous raids, during numerous expansions, on numerous bossfights.

HOWEVER

Golemagg the Incinerator, Molten Core. 1st boss ever in the game where a tank switch is introduced as a mechanic due to stacking debuff.
Ragnaros the Firelord, Molten Core. 2nd boss ever in the game where a tank switch is required, 1st boss in the game who disappears and calls adds that need to be DPS'ed down (intermission phase, Sons of Flame)

Drakes in BWL - Multiple run-of-the-mill mechanics made their 1st appearance on these 3 drakes. Tank switches are continued, Firemaw gives us the first boss ever that needs DPS to hold back and reset their stacks, while healing themselves with bandages to ease up the strain on the healers. Ebonroc had the first tank-swap mechanic which WASNT a stacking debuff like Rag or Golemagg, but a nasty debuff that HEALS THE BOSS (WTF? 1st time seeing this as well).

Chrommagus in BWL - 1st boss in the entire game who has a soft-enrage mechanic, basicly the 1st Execute phase the game introduced. Undispellable, increased attack speed, increased rate at which he does his abilities (if I remember correctly, don't quote me about that last part).

You get my point mate? These mechanics are not hard, and never will be hard, because we're used to them. They are only brain-dead raids in TODAYS standards - there are guilds on my server who have difficulties tank-switching and stopping DPS to reset their debuffs. It's easy for you and me, and our guilds, and anyone who has raided in Retail from TBC onwards (TBC was the 1st time we had multiple complex mechanics on bossfights, got carried through till today in BFA). But in 2004-2005 when we were 13 years old and had never seen this in our entire lives? World of Warcraft was the 1st ever MMORPG I played, and my experience with RPG's before WoW was purely Japanese - Pokemon & Breath of Fire on the Gameboy, and Final Fantasy VII, VIII and IX on the Playstation 1.

For the population back THEN, they were complex mechanics. For the population TODAY, they are not. It's like me, with a Master's degree in Economics, being examined on 9th grade Calculus. I won't break a sweat. But 9th grade Calculus in 9th grade, was not super easy (it was ok), and required some studying. 15 years later? I can do it with my eyes closed.

You put a lot of effort in, I'll give you that. However I raided vanilla too, and it was easy then as well.

However, you need to understand that my issue isn't with those having trouble, genuinely struggling with shit - that's fine. However there remains a group of individuals who genuinely believe bwl compares to bwl heroic, and a smaller group who think it's on par with mythic. Not in 2004/5, but right now.

Just check this thread - people are genuinely claiming that naxx is on par with mythic raids - now, not in 2005, now.

So while I appreciate what you are saying, you are not part of the group I find so confusing. That is reserved for those who are convinced that mythic raiding is no harder than fucking bwl is right now.

[Dalinos]

You put a lot of effort in, I'll give you that. However I raided vanilla too, and it was easy then as well.

However, you need to understand that my issue isn't with those having trouble, genuinely struggling with shit - that's fine. However there remains a group of individuals who genuinely believe bwl compares to bwl heroic, and a smaller group who think it's on par with mythic. Not in 2004/5, but right now.

Just check this thread - people are genuinely claiming that naxx is on par with mythic raids - now, not in 2005, now.

So while I appreciate what you are saying, you are not part of the group I find so confusing. That is reserved for those who are convinced that mythic raiding is no harder than fucking bwl is right now.

Yet, experience teaches us otherwise. There are guilds out there struggling with 15yr old bosses and run-of-the-mill mechanics. What does that tell you? That for SOME people it's hard. For X or Y reason, they cannot wrap their heads around these mechanics, and they constantly wipe. Is it cause they are bad? Perhaps. Are they comparable to you and me, who have our Ph.D's in Warcraft Raiding because we've been doing it for a decade+? Of course not. Sure, BWL was cleared by 1,500 guilds on day 1. But it wasn't cleared by the REST of the 8,500 guilds across classic servers :P

By the same token, if you and I, or anyone with a decade+ of raiding experience sets foot into a mythic raid, we'll perform. We'll get purple parses no probs, cause we've gotten purple parses for years on end. With a bit of practice we might get some orange parses too. The people wiping in BWL right now? They'll just get demolished.

Hence, we have the following scenario: 2 raids, completely different difficulty (current BWL and current Mythic raid on retail), yet pretty much the same completion rates (percentage-wise). This is why people draw comparisons.

Lastly, it's much easier to manage 20 people and have piss-easy consumables to get, VS managing 40 people and adding world-buffs to the mix. Logistics in Classic are much harder than logistics on Retail, blizzard has made sure of that over the years (adding an in-game calendar, reducing raid-group sizes etc and so forth).

P.S - how old were you when you played Vanilla? Like I said, I was 13yrs old, coming from a Japanese RPG background, which is -completely- different to European RPG's. In Japanese RPG's you can actively break the game (like boosting Cloud in FFVII to deal 9999 dmg per attack, or getting a lvl100 Dragonite and 1shotting the whole world of Pokemon with Hyper-beams), in European RPG's, not so much (especially in those days). Mechanics in Japanese RPG's are countered by preparation (put on the necklace that makes you immune to Poison when fighting the Poison boss) instead of action-related mechanics. Hence, for little 13yr old me setting foot in MC and BWL, this was all brand new, and needed time to get grasped. It did get grasped, but it still needed time to get grasped. If you were in your late teens-early 20's, then obviously it woulda been much easier for you :P

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You put a lot of effort in, I'll give you that. However I raided vanilla too, and it was easy then as well.

However, you need to understand that my issue isn't with those having trouble, genuinely struggling with shit - that's fine. However there remains a group of individuals who genuinely believe bwl compares to bwl heroic, and a smaller group who think it's on par with mythic. Not in 2004/5, but right now.

Just check this thread - people are genuinely claiming that naxx is on par with mythic raids - now, not in 2005, now.

So while I appreciate what you are saying, you are not part of the group I find so confusing. That is reserved for those who are convinced that mythic raiding is no harder than fucking bwl is right now.

Also, just saw your Naxx comment, so I'll address that too.

A raid is considered hard for many reasons. One of those reasons is 1shot mechanics, or near-1shot mechanics, that make you lose people left and right. Another reason a raid may be considered hard is insta-wipe mechanics - like a fucked up Defile on LK25heroic, or someone bombing the whole raid on Vael or Baron Geddon.

I'll tell ya a little secret mate. Kel'Thuzad in vanilla naxxramas deals MORE damage on some abilities than his WOTLK counterpart. Sapphiron's frost aura TICKS for exactly the same damage in vanilla naxx and WOTLK naxx. Yes, you read that right. It ticks for like 400/2 sec when our HP pools were at 5k and 400/2 sec when our HP pools were at 20k+ in WOTLK. Naxxramas is over-tuned as FUCK, and rightfully so, so yes, I would compare it to a Mythic raid. Loatheb in vanilla naxx is INSANE. You don't get a 10sec window to heal, like you do in WOTLK naxx, you get to cast ONE HEALING SPELL. ONE. Just one.

Remember Heigan's dance? It was a nightmare for some guilds. (not ours, we had alrdy done Heigan in Lv60 naxx). Now imagine doing the Heigan dance with 40 people instead of 10/25. I'm not even gonna begin talking about Thaddius. Maiden in Legion was a disaster for LFR pugs with her dance, now imagine Thaddius's Polarity Shift with 40 people instead of 10/25. 1shots and people dying like flies left and right.

Sure, Naxxramas might not be so mechanically bloated like some of the raids we have today, but the TUNING is hardcore man. It was the 1st raid designed around having world buffs, flasks, sharpening stones, wizard oils, all sorts of consumables. Just like AQ40 was the 1st raid to be balanced around having 16 debuff slots instead of 8 or 6. By today's criteria, lvl 60 Naxxramas is FOR SURE Mythic-level difficulty, by how it's defined (1shot mechanics and raid-wipe mechanics). Enrage timers are tight (patchwerk, Loatheb) 1shot mechanics are EVERYWHERE (Heigan, Kel'Thuzad, Thaddius), gear is SUPER scarce and hard to get (due to needing trashmob drops) you need to be EXTREMELY well-geared from BWL and AQ40 to even attempt it, it has its own Frost Resistance set for Sapphiron....all in all, it ticks all the boxes to be considered "Mythic" difficulty. And if not today's "Mythic" level, then SURELY it's considered MoP-level Heroic difficulty. I would argue Vanilla Naxx-Kel'Thuzad is on par with Lei Shen 25HC in terms of how many 1shot mechanics the fight has, and how both fights need perfect execution from every raider involved.

[Millyraynge]

Yet, experience teaches us otherwise. There are guilds out there struggling with 15yr old bosses and run-of-the-mill mechanics. What does that tell you? That for SOME people it's hard. For X or Y reason, they cannot wrap their heads around these mechanics, and they constantly wipe. Is it cause they are bad? Perhaps. Are they comparable to you and me, who have our Ph.D's in Warcraft Raiding because we've been doing it for a decade+? Of course not. Sure, BWL was cleared by 1,500 guilds on day 1. But it wasn't cleared by the REST of the 8,500 guilds across classic servers :P

By the same token, if you and I, or anyone with a decade+ of raiding experience sets foot into a mythic raid, we'll perform. We'll get purple parses no probs, cause we've gotten purple parses for years on end. With a bit of practice we might get some orange parses too. The people wiping in BWL right now? They'll just get demolished.

Hence, we have the following scenario: 2 raids, completely different difficulty (current BWL and current Mythic raid on retail), yet pretty much the same completion rates (percentage-wise). This is why people draw comparisons.

Lastly, it's much easier to manage 20 people and have piss-easy consumables to get, VS managing 40 people and adding world-buffs to the mix. Logistics in Classic are much harder than logistics on Retail, blizzard has made sure of that over the years (adding an in-game calendar, reducing raid-group sizes etc and so forth).

To tell something hard or easy because of the extremes on both ends is quite hillarious. BWL is not easy because apes cleared it within 30 minutes. BWL is not hard because the worst IQ80 guild requires more than 1 lockout to clear it.

If you have a feel of resistance in bwl you have lived the past 13 years behind the moon while playing solitaire. Nearly any game in any format gained more complexity over the years. Competitive games in particular. Combined with the more or less dominating elitist mentality the overall average skill level has developed pretty much. It doesnt even matter if you have or havent any experience in wow itself, as an average gamer classic doesnt offer any kind of resistance.

[InflaterMouse]

Classic has extremely little content if you're not a raider or a serious PvP:er, however I'm beginning to feel that the content it does have is way too easy. Raids are cleared the first reset by most guilds and then you're back to raid logging for farm raids that are almost as easy as LFR is in retail.
It doesn't give you a sense of accomplishment and the character progression is extremely slow, with new gear upgrades coming at you about once a month.
It's starting to feel like, what's the point if there's no challenge?

The only thing ever hard about classic was logistics and planning. Classic was an amazing game for the time. Folks that wanted it back so badly must not have really played it. LOL.

[Askyl]

The only thing ever hard about classic was logistics and planning. Classic was an amazing game for the time. Folks that wanted it back so badly must not have really played it. LOL.

Pretty much everyone in my guild played vanilla and all of them wanted it back. Your point is that we who actually do like RPG elements in our RPG games haven't played vanilla for real? or what? I don't understand really.

And since Classic is such a beast of a game now, I guess you mean it's an amazing game. Not for it's time, since it's time is both now and was 15 years ago. It's a great game even if it's not suited for todays youths that get bored if you don't throw them "Amazing!, Cool stuff!, Miiiiiiiicro upgrade WoWww!" every 15 minutes. Not dissing, it's just how the gaming culture is now and I get people like different

[Dalinos]

To tell something hard or easy because of the extremes on both ends is quite hillarious. BWL is not easy because apes cleared it within 30 minutes. BWL is not hard because the worst IQ80 guild requires more than 1 lockout to clear it.

If you have a feel of resistance in bwl you have lived the past 13 years behind the moon while playing solitaire. Nearly any game in any format gained more complexity over the years. Competitive games in particular. Combined with the more or less dominating elitist mentality the overall average skill level has developed pretty much. It doesnt even matter if you have or havent any experience in wow itself, as an average gamer classic doesnt offer any kind of resistance.

Then how do you explain the fact that there are guilds wiping in BWL, today, 15 years after the raid has been released, with mechanics that we have seen on more than 20 bosses across expansions? I'm having a blast 1shotting all of BWL in ~1h25 mins (damn you Bronze affliction requiring a 10min break), but others are struggling :P. While I agree with you the general, average skill-level of gamers has increased....reality paints a different picture :P

[Echocho]

Then how do you explain the fact that there are guilds wiping in BWL, today, 15 years after the raid has been released, with mechanics that we have seen on more than 20 bosses across expansions? I'm having a blast 1shotting all of BWL in ~1h25 mins (damn you Bronze affliction requiring a 10min break), but others are struggling :P. While I agree with you the general, average skill-level of gamers has increased....reality paints a different picture :P

People have been wiping on farm content for 15 years, this isn't anything new. What we're talking about here is how long it takes to clear the raid. For example for an average guild it will take about a month to clear heroic <insert current raid here> on retail, an average guild in classic will clear BWL before their first reset is over.

[Dalinos]

People have been wiping on farm content for 15 years, this isn't anything new. What we're talking about here is how long it takes to clear the raid. For example for an average guild it will take about a month to clear heroic <insert current raid here> on retail, an average guild in classic will clear BWL before their first reset is over.

Excuse me? 1 month to clear Heroic? what? when I still played retail in Legion, people were selling Ahead of the Curve boosts on week 2. A guild must be REALLY shit if they need a month of progress to clear current HEROIC. Remember, current heroic is old-school Normal. Normal mode was ALWAYS cleared week-1 by any serious guild. When SOO was released in MOP, Mythic difficulty was released about 2 months later. SOO Heroic before the patch and SOO Mythic after the patch were IDENTICAL. Heroic became Mythic, Normal became Heroic, Flex became Normal, LFR stayed where it was.

You are telling me that in current retail, an average normal guild needs 1 month to progress through NORMAL MODE RAIDS? My god, how people have turned bad =/

[InflaterMouse]

Pretty much everyone in my guild played vanilla and all of them wanted it back. Your point is that we who actually do like RPG elements in our RPG games haven't played vanilla for real? or what? I don't understand really.

And since Classic is such a beast of a game now, I guess you mean it's an amazing game. Not for it's time, since it's time is both now and was 15 years ago. It's a great game even if it's not suited for todays youths that get bored if you don't throw them "Amazing!, Cool stuff!, Miiiiiiiicro upgrade WoWww!" every 15 minutes. Not dissing, it's just how the gaming culture is now and I get people like different

Your guildies represent a very small portion of the wow player population. Classic returning caused 2 things to happen: one a bunch of people who never experienced it getting to and people who thought it was the best game ever getting to go back and play it. It was an amazing game for the time as there was nothing else like it. The RPG elements of classic were weak and a case could be made that even BFA offers better (as bad as that sounds).

I VERY much enjoyed it when it was fresh and yes wow is completely different today as are the people playing it. That would happen with any game or game publisher if they want to survive. When you discuss "today's youth" you have to also consider that the people who were successful raideres/pvp'ers in vanilla have also grown up and most likely have had a lot change in their lives as well. When our guild was raiding in vanilla it required A LOT of time to be dedicated and a lot of folks aren't going to have that time today.

The farming requirements, getting things unlocked, attunements, and raid attendance from a RL/GM standpoint were 60%-70% of the challenge classic provided with it's raiding content. LOL I wasn't dissing anything or anyone with the post. Opinions vary. When we were raiding in classic I was dating my wife, had no kids and wasn't working 60hrs-70hrs per week. Now obviously that has all changed.

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Excuse me? 1 month to clear Heroic? what? when I still played retail in Legion, people were selling Ahead of the Curve boosts on week 2. A guild must be REALLY shit if they need a month of progress to clear current HEROIC. Remember, current heroic is old-school Normal. Normal mode was ALWAYS cleared week-1 by any serious guild. When SOO was released in MOP, Mythic difficulty was released about 2 months later. SOO Heroic before the patch and SOO Mythic after the patch were IDENTICAL. Heroic became Mythic, Normal became Heroic, Flex became Normal, LFR stayed where it was.

You are telling me that in current retail, an average normal guild needs 1 month to progress through NORMAL MODE RAIDS? My god, how people have turned bad =/

Guilds not completing a content tier in a quick time frame doesn't always have anything to do with the skill to progress the content. But if you think calling people bad makes you some how look better as a human or player of a game by all means. But it doesn't.

[Dalinos]

Guilds not completing a content tier in a quick time frame doesn't always have anything to do with the skill to progress the content. But if you think calling people bad makes you some how look better as a human or player of a game by all means. But it doesn't.

Mate, did you play in the WOTLK - MOP era? In the era where there was 25man Normal, 25man Heroic, 10man Normal, 10man Heroic? If you did, then you should know that ANY raiding guild that took the game even REMOTELY seriously, cleared the Normal version of a raid on day 1, maybe day 2, but for sure by the first reset. So they could start working on Heroic mode the next week. I distinctly remember us even doing ICC10man heroic, to practice mechanics and get some good ilvl264 gear to use in ICC25HC (that dropped 277). Never in the history of the game has a Normal mode version of a raid been hard, which needed multiple resets to clear. Please, point me to ONE normal mode raid from that era (that only Normal and Heroic existed) and show me which one of those deserves more than 1 reset. I'm waiting.

[Big Thanks]

Nah, I'm sorry, the raids just became harder at all. Especially Mythic is extremely hard these days and Heroic is tuned pretty well to progress through for an average guild.

And even the laughable LFR...compared to BWL right now, BWL is definetly below LFR, and that counts for every boss in there compared to Nyalotha right now. And I am not talking some crap, I played both. People not clearing normal the first week are comparable to those not clearing BWL in a single session. Yes, they are bad. But it happens quite a lot.

I laugh at the idea of a LFR group dispelling 40 people fast and constantly.
But if thats your opinion...ok.

[Dalinos]

Nah, I'm sorry, the raids just became harder at all. Especially Mythic is extremely hard these days and Heroic is tuned pretty well to progress through for an average guild.

And even the laughable LFR...compared to BWL right now, BWL is definetly below LFR, and that counts for every boss in there compared to Nyalotha right now. And I am not talking some crap, I played both. People not clearing normal the first week are comparable to those not clearing BWL in a single session. Yes, they are bad. But it happens quite a lot.

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There was no Heroic ICC10. ToC was the first to introduce the different modes to pick before the start, Ulduar the first one with triggered hardmodes in the fight itself.

WTF you on about? Ofc there was ICC10 heroic man. Log on Retail, look at your Achievement tab, then come back to me. Where do you think Reins of the Bloodbathed Vanquisher come from? Oh that's right. Glory of the ICC raider, 10man. Cause 25man gives Frostbrood vanquisher. I raided hardcore during WOTLK man, there is absolutely nothing I do not remember from that era of the game =) Off the top of my head - ICC10man dropped 251 loot, ICC10HC/ICC25N gave 264, ICC25HC gave 277. The same way TOC10man Normal gave 232 loot, TOC10HC/TOC25Normal gave 245, and TOC25HC gave 258. Correct me if I'm wrong please.

THERE WAS EVEN A TITLE FOR DEFEATING LK10HEROIC. BANE OF THE FALLEN KING. GIVE ME WHATEVER IT IS YOU'RE SMOKING, IM JEALOUS.

[Millyraynge]

Then how do you explain the fact that there are guilds wiping in BWL, today, 15 years after the raid has been released, with mechanics that we have seen on more than 20 bosses across expansions? I'm having a blast 1shotting all of BWL in ~1h25 mins (damn you Bronze affliction requiring a 10min break), but others are struggling :P. While I agree with you the general, average skill-level of gamers has increased....reality paints a different picture :P

A lot of players (but still a minority) may have the feel of resistance. They are performing on a lower level than the average player. This does not mean they are bad in general. You have always take the overall circumstances into account. Maybe we have some returners here which played vanilla back then but only easy wii games since then. To improve skill you have to repeat the discipline at least on a regular basis. As a hard core casual with very volatile ingame times you will never achive a level of someone who is playing multiple hours a week.

[Dalinos]

A lot of players (but still a minority) may have the feel of resistance. They are performing on a lower level than the average player. This does not mean they are bad in general. You have always take the overall circumstances into account. Maybe we have some returners here which played vanilla back then but only easy wii games since then. To improve skill you have to repeat the discipline at least on a regular basis. As a hard core casual with very volatile ingame times you will never achive a level of someone who is playing multiple hours a week.

Mah dude, I just got told by a random poster that ICC10HC didn't exist xD People are dumb, really dumb :P