Is Classic too easy?

[Pohut]

Calling Classic in general and Naxx in particular piss easy is insulting to piss.

[Synical123]

Calling Classic in general and Naxx in particular piss easy is insulting to piss.

are you trying to get banned for trolling? You know you can just log off if you really don’t want to be here

[Kralljin]

So by comparison it is extremely easy.

I never compared to its "original" difficulty, so i don't see your point.

The low amount of clears isn't just because of its perceived difficulty, but also because most guilds didn't bother to progress anymore with TBC around the corner and the absolutely nightmarish consumable requirements.
They're pretty huge now, but were even worse back then because *every* guild had to progress to some extent on bosses, leading to much higher consumable usage per raid.

[Schmilblick]

Easy, dumb, bugged, but I'm still playing it :/

[munkeyinorbit]

Not even remotely comparable and you know that. I'll make this super duper simple for you. I'll make up some numbers here so it's easier to imagine for someone like you.

Let's say there is two fights, one's mechanics is about 80% 'easier' than the other one.

The 'harder' fight is a 5 man fight at the beginning of the expansion that requires almost no gear
The 'easier' fight is a 40 man fight at the very end of an expansion with 0 catch up mechanics (requiring all 40 people to participate through the entire expansion).

Now, wouldn't you say it's a fair bit tougher to get 40 people who are A) Geared B) Won't mess up the fight and C) Even just show up for the fight in the first place. The 40 man fight's mechanics are 80% of the difficulty of the 5 man so should or shouldn't it be easier to clear?

I'm not acting like classic wow raids are 80% of the difficulty in terms of mechanics of retail, I'm just telling you that if you take things out of the equation such as roster size, time requirements, preparation, and everything else involved in an mmo when you are discussing difficulty...well then you really don't have any valid opinions in this argument.

If you want to say all these things combined in classic, still is easier than retail, then sure go right ahead that's a valid argument. But if you dismiss something like actually getting the raid together in the first place to full clear it in a discussion about difficulty then sorry bud....you're dead wrong.

At this stage a level 60 5 man in Classic is harder than Naxx by the metric of "it's hard to get the required number of appropriately geared people". No one is doing 5 man content, it takes hours and hours to find a tank. Therefore Scholomance is harder than Naxx. Is it though? This is why your argument of "40 people makes things hard" is stupid. Logistics is never part of any metric when it comes to how difficult content is.

[arkanon]

you really don't have any valid opinions in this argument.

My opinion is very much valid, and you admitted it yourself when you said the factors you are discussing - getting a raid team online and ready - is exactly the same in retail as it is in classic. So it should not be discussed at all. What is NOT valid is coming up with ridiculous things like "classic raids are 80% the difficulty of retail" - maybe if you said 80% easier, I would have listened, but why try and bring difficulty "percentages" into this if you are just going to use something completely idiotic.

The irony is that getting 20-30 raiders of a high enough ability to be competitive in mythic, and willing to put in the substantial work required, is exponentially more challenging than getting 40 randoms online who have put in the VERY MINIMAL work required to clear raids in classic. Classic did one thing more than anything else - dispelled all the myths about how hard it was, how much work was required, and how much prep was required.

That doesnt mean myself and many others didnt have an absolute blast playing it.

[munkeyinorbit]

I'm simply going repost the following:

This changes nothing. LFR has more mechanics in it and is more difficult than Naxx. Some guys opinion doesn't change facts.

[Synical123]

My opinion is very much valid, and you admitted it yourself when you said the factors you are discussing - getting a raid team online and ready - is exactly the same in retail as it is in classic. So it should not be discussed at all. What is NOT valid is coming up with ridiculous things like "classic raids are 80% the difficulty of retail" - maybe if you said 80% easier, I would have listened, but why try and bring difficulty "percentages" into this if you are just going to use something completely idiotic.

The irony is that getting 20-30 raiders of a high enough ability to be competitive in mythic, and willing to put in the substantial work required, is exponentially more challenging than getting 40 randoms online who have put in the VERY MINIMAL work required to clear raids in classic. Classic did one thing more than anything else - dispelled all the myths about how hard it was, how much work was required, and how much prep was required.

That doesnt mean myself and many others didnt have an absolute blast playing it.

Thanks for once again, proving you didn’t read what I said, or intentionally misunderstood it

[msdos]

Naxx is easy, okay, then where is your KTZ kill and your full Tier 3?? Also are you raiding retail as well? I did.

To be honest with you, you can make any raid you want neck breakingly tuned (Nathria) if you make the first sets of gear complete garbage, which is what they did in Shadowlands and Classic. Or you can have a raid be nothing, like Naxx 25.

Vanilla back when gear barely dropped before 1.12 was hard, 1.12 is not hard, we knew that before Classic launched.

Also I went into Nathria as a melee, didn't read any of the fights, had zero consumes, no idea what's going on and still did good damage and one shot most of the bosses on normal and cleared in 2 weeks. So that means I could do it on heroic, all you need to do is slap gear on me. Then Mythic add one mechanic, then slap on gear and sockets.
People act like retail is the hardest individual thing, it really isn't. Synchronized swimming with 40 people is difficult. Retail you can just carry bads all the way to Mythic, I know because we did it in BFA and Legion.

[arkanon]

Also I went into Nathria as a melee, didn't read any of the fights, had zero consumes, no idea what's going on and still did good damage and one shot most of the bosses on normal and cleared in 2 weeks. So that means I could do it on heroic, all you need to do is slap gear on me. Then Mythic add one mechanic, then slap on gear and sockets.

The level of naivety in this is mind blowing. Yeah, you got it all figured out - the only difference between normal mode and mythic is "one mechanic" and slapping some gear on and a socket. Why would you spout such absolute drivel when you know full well that is completely untrue? Do you genuinely think anyone would believe you?

I should also point out that if you one shot the bosses, as you say, it would have taken about 90 minutes - 2 hours to clear the raid, not 2 weeks.

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks for once again, proving you didn’t read what I said, or intentionally misunderstood it

Your post was a rambling, nonsensical mess - first you claimed that, in your scenario, the content was 80% "easier", then just a few sentences later you said it was 80% of the difficulty - these are TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THINGS. You have said that classics difficulty comes from getting 40 ppl together, but then acknowledge that challenge exists in retail as well. You continue to dismiss the clear points being raised, and instead reply with "nah ah, you didn't even read what I wrote!" and "your opinion isn't valid, because I say so".

[Synical123]

Your post was a rambling, nonsensical mess

If you had trouble understanding what I said, even when I dumbed it down, then this conversation went exactly how I imagined it would go.

[arkanon]

If you had trouble understanding what I said, even when I dumbed it down, then this conversation went exactly how I imagined it would go.

Interesting that you chose to ignore the next sentence:

first you claimed that, in your scenario, the content was 80% "easier", then just a few sentences later you said it was 80% of the difficulty - these are TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THINGS

[Synical123]

Interesting that you chose to ignore the next sentence:

first you claimed that, in your scenario, the content was 80% "easier", then just a few sentences later you said it was 80% of the difficulty - these are TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THINGS

It’s pretty plain as day to interpret what I was getting at. Again, if you had trouble understand this then I’m not surprised at all. Considering I said multiple times “80% of the difficulty” right after that twice, it doesn’t take a PHD to understand I misspoke the first phrase. Critical thinking clearly isn’t your strong suit.

And for the record, I didn’t ‘miss’ this the first time around, I chose not to read past what I quoted because people like you are extremely dense to the point where I’m basically just wasting my time right as it is.

[arkanon]

Thanks for once again, proving you didn’t read what I said

I chose not to read past what I quoted

Oh sweet, sweet irony. Getting frustrated at others for not reading your illogical, nonsensical, shambolic posts, and then immediately admitting you don't actually read the posts you reply to. You have added nothing to the discussion in the last few posts, and are yet to address any of the points I have raised.

For someone who wanted to have an open discussion, you are doing your very best to avoid any actual discussion about the difficulty of classic. Let me try and help you get back on track - which encounter from classic do you believe was the most challenging, why, and where would you rank its difficulty compared to the current raid tier in retail - LFR, Normal, Heroic, Mythic. If you dont play retail, feel free to use any previous tier from legion or bfa.

[Pohut]

I never compared to its "original" difficulty, so i don't see your point.

The low amount of clears isn't just because of its perceived difficulty, but also because most guilds didn't bother to progress anymore with TBC around the corner and the absolutely nightmarish consumable requirements.
They're pretty huge now, but were even worse back then because *every* guild had to progress to some extent on bosses, leading to much higher consumable usage per raid.

The amount of clears is not low. It is extremely high. Ridiculously so. Much higher than LFR clears on retail.

[Aleax]

Classic was "hard" when you had little clue what you were doing.

When soloing, pulling more than one mob was risky, you learnt it quick by dying though; you had to learn to avoid the Elite, that Elite patrolling the area; the repop of the monsters; or the range you could advance before pulling more than one enemy. When one fled right to other mobs, it was the wipe. You died, and then mobs you previously killed repop-ed around you.

I also quite remember the Dark Irons Dwarves encounters in Gnomeragan, for example, being very nasty still.

As for the dungeons and raids, the most difficult thingy was to bring that many players play together at once I suppose.

So maybie Classic was hard back then to some extend. It's probably piece of cake now though.

[msdos]

The level of naivety in this is mind blowing. Yeah, you got it all figured out - the only difference between normal mode and mythic is "one mechanic" and slapping some gear on and a socket. Why would you spout such absolute drivel when you know full well that is completely untrue? Do you genuinely think anyone would believe you?

I should also point out that if you one shot the bosses, as you say, it would have taken about 90 minutes - 2 hours to clear the raid, not 2 weeks.

I typed "one shot most of the bosses". Your emo rage on MMO has you unable to read, I see it a lot on here, it's okay. Yes, my guild cleared normal in 2 weeks.

I mean it's true basically. Heroic and Normal have the same mechanics OR Heroic and Mythic have an extra mechanic on the fights. It's not hard and we progressed to Mythic AS A GUILD in Legion. The only reason we stopped is because BFA was so bad everyone quit half way and we haven't recovered from that.

[Synical123]

At this stage a level 60 5 man in Classic is harder than Naxx by the metric of "it's hard to get the required number of appropriately geared people". No one is doing 5 man content, it takes hours and hours to find a tank. Therefore Scholomance is harder than Naxx. Is it though? This is why your argument of "40 people makes things hard" is stupid. Logistics is never part of any metric when it comes to how difficult content is.

I never said that it’s all just time investment in waiting for difficulty, I said it’s a factor in it.

Let’s say there are two completely similar raids, both of them have the exact same mechanics and bosses. But on one version of the game it is the last raid in an attunement style expansion like tbc so the 40 people you need have to be fully attuned, and go through all the stages of the game to stay together and be geared.

Then on the other version of the game it’s literally the first raid that anyone can walk into and it’s at the beginning of the expansion.

So I have to ask, if both are the EXACT SAME raid in terms of mechanics, which one is harder to clear?

[Squigglyo]

I never said that it’s all just time investment in waiting for difficulty, I said it’s a factor in it.

Let’s say there are two completely similar raids, both of them have the exact same mechanics and bosses. But on one version of the game it is the last raid in an attunement style expansion like tbc so the 40 people you need have to be fully attuned, and go through all the stages of the game to stay together and be geared.

Then on the other version of the game it’s literally the first raid that anyone can walk into and it’s at the beginning of the expansion.

So I have to ask, if both are the EXACT SAME raid in terms of mechanics, which one is harder to clear?

...Both of them are the same - Clearing is not the same as getting a group.



If your guild is already attuned and ready to go, you wouldnt claim they are fighting a harder boss.

By your logic, clearing Kaelthas and Lady Vashj would be considered easier than clearing the first boss in Mt Hyjal simply due to the attunement.

[varren]

I believe you misspelled LFR.
Lol Heroic difficulty. Nobody is struggling in Naxx. Well, maybe, cause of extreme boredom.

and by nobody you mean the 100s of guilds that are not 15/15 in Naxx