WOW- Now pay to win?

[themaster24]

So, you think it's P2W so it's P2W.

Gotcha dude. Keep that head-canon going. Back here in reality, until there's a cash shop run by Blizzard to buy current tier gear, the game is not P2W no matter how poorly you try to argue the game is somehow negatively impacted by the top .001% of players who actually convert WoW gold from tokens to buy Corrupted gear.

You should go back and read my previous posts, because I don't think any of the things you try to claim I am besides that I accept that it can technically be considered P2W by the standards that you can spend money and get something that givse you power, despite the fact that WoW doesn't fall into what I would typically consider P2W.

[Sinfelle]

I think you're basing that on the assumption that corruption gear is the sole, or even the primary thing, influencing the token price. In such a closed system with only the token and corrupted gear, I think what you're saying is accurate. But there are many more factors(most of which we don't have the data on) influencing the price of the token. I outlined some possible reasons in a previous post.

Basically I think that there was an increased demand for gold caused by the availability of powerful corrupted BOE gear. I think that you, being an accountant versed in "basic economy', can agree that such a valuable commodity being available would cause a spike in demand. Whether or not that was actually refelcted in the price of the wow token is not something we can actually determine without more accurate and detailed information about EVERYTHING that impacts the price, not just corrupted gear.

I’m basing that off on that’s the only targeted source of upgrades you can buy. Sure you can buy boost too, but that also falls in the realm of economy as it’s not endorsed or provided by blizz, they simply allow it. There’s no guarantee of a significant power increase with a boost (even with gear funnel) though unlikely.

Not really debating the influx of tokens being bought. Prices have dropped from 250k to 150k since 8.3 dropped so definitely more people are buying them, but I don’t see any of those players as “winning”.

[Tident]

BoE were never so extravagantly overpowered. BiS overkill BoE that are better than anything endgame, accessible through AH. Clearly p2w.

I have to agree... the amount of power corruption grants is absurd. A full 475 character with no corruption will be crushed by a 455 with good procs.

I really hope this is the last push these broken systems have and shadow lands is a fresh start. If not I don't really know if I will bother with it and just stick to class and the eventual tbc.

[Nerovar]

Of course I do. But what effect does it have on being or not being P2W? Other than, one of them is legally obtained means P2W and the other is illegally obtained means to P2W.

Well, of course it's P2W in a sense because the outcome is the same on paper (though I would argue considerably less people will make use of it). But there's a big difference between breaking the terms of service in order to get P2W benefits and doing so legally because Blizzard supports and promotes this kind of behaviour.

It's like saying that committing theft is the same thing when you do it under the risk of punishment as when you do it legally because there's no laws against it and the government endorses it.

[Sinfelle]

BoE were never so extravagantly overpowered. BiS overkill BoE that are better than anything endgame, accessible through AH. Clearly p2w.

Buying a token doesn’t get you gear. It has to drop, it has to be sold, you have to buy it first. Not p2w.

It’s also not the BiS most powerful Uber shit in the game for almost every spec. It’s a nice boost, but not the best. For instance the ring that drops of N’Zoth , if it corrupts would blow the boe ring out of the water for almost every spec.

[Terongor]

Not like this...corrupt effect does like 30-50% of your damge sometimes. Have never been like that before that BOE are so powerfull. Or maybe it have but that is bad gameplay.

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yes but never this powerboost? 30%+ of your damage from one BOE? Really?

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I agree. Feels bad man!

Well buying 3 10 ilevel stuff above mythic with sockets since mop increased performance alot when they are using only current normal.

Having guild boost people with gold and giving them all the loot they can use from m raids is pretty P2W and since the token came wow became P2W as you could buy gold to Make guilds boost you true m raids making you nearly 50% stronger if you didn't use hc gear and then it could easily be 25% power increase.

[Nnyco]

Not like this...corrupt effect does like 30-50% of your damge sometimes. Have never been like that before that BOE are so powerfull. Or maybe it have but that is bad gameplay.

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yes but never this powerboost? 30%+ of your damage from one BOE? Really?

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I agree. Feels bad man!

If 30-50% of your dmg is a corruption effect youre doin somethin wrong.

[Lolites]

Then watch the video and consider the points being made!

video is prepared in advance, truths can be bent in a way i cant get from the video itself, thats why i never watch "informational" wow videos, its pointless, its not information but rather point of view of the person making the video

[Magicon]

I see 475ilvl items with socket and good corruption for like 2-3 million on the AH. So now ppl buy wow tokens for real life money and then buy this items...

Is this good gameplay or not? Pay to win?

Blizzard probly happy about it as they earn more $$$




EDIT: What i mean by p2w is win the damage meter. More dps make dungeon/raid/pvp easyer. One with buyed BIS for real life money VS one with no corrupt or a bad one. Who would you put your money on? Who would you like to have in your raid/dungeon/arena. Also my english are pretty bad so sorry for not explaining so all understand. I did my best, sorry.


VERY funny thing is that i asked both if its good gameplay and if its P2W. None/few answer if its good gameplay. All get stuck if its P2W instead. Ppl are funny

Apparently Preach Gaming have a video about it.

sorry, but wow has become so bad anyway.

[Raelbo]

No where ever does anyone ever say the definition of pay to win means you are required to pay to win. Except you.

And a whole bunch of other people here. And here

That being said, I agree that there is no universal definition of p2w. Which is why it is argued about. However I do maintain that my definition makes a fuckton more sense than definitions which want to argue along the lines of "if you can get some form of advantage...". Because without the requirement to pay, pay2win becomes an entirely non-issue that doesn't warrant getting upset about and having an argument on the internet over.

As I said to another poster earlier: The pay2win debate is a point of contention because some people want to use "WoW is p2w" as a strawman. p2w arguments are never about some sort of academic debate, they're used by people who lack convincing arguments on such wonderful topics as "tokens are cancer" "Blizzard are greedy" etc.

[pinkz]

WOW classic has proved a point i made awhile back that services were the start of pay to win, pay to get ahead/lead, pay to get items/gear back in VAN WOW with just the start of paid server transfers not going to list of book of examples, but here is one

a long time WOW tuber/streamer, switched classic servers put out a statement why...due to faction imbal etc. goes to server where he believes he can gain honor faster. this immediately shows on streams as he enjoys easy alliance PVE wins in AV BG. while complaining that horde are occasionally ruining or delaying the alliance AV win because they are PVPing. skip.....blizzard nerfs AV, tuber/streamer went back the original server he was on.

many have used paid transfers to get on servers that netted them most honor, or to slower servers with under geared players to get guaranteed raid spots, guaranteed loot, etc.

paid server transfers will be imo, abused and evident on AG gate event, while blizzard even 15 years later $$$$$ slides because paid services fly under the radar.

[Lolites]

I think you're basing that on the assumption that corruption gear is the sole, or even the primary thing, influencing the token price. In such a closed system with only the token and corrupted gear, I think what you're saying is accurate. But there are many more factors(most of which we don't have the data on) influencing the price of the token. I outlined some possible reasons in a previous post.

Basically I think that there was an increased demand for gold caused by the availability of powerful corrupted BOE gear. I think that you, being an accountant versed in "basic economy', can agree that such a valuable commodity being available would cause a spike in demand. Whether or not that was actually refelcted in the price of the wow token is not something we can actually determine without more accurate and detailed information about EVERYTHING that impacts the price, not just corrupted gear.

fair point, but if there was no movement there would have to be factor that would decrese the demand for token aproximately in the same amount it was increased by BoE items, otherwise there would be SOME movement, and as we have no information of anything happening that could decrease the demand, its just guessing...
so untill we know or at least can assume there was something like that, there is only information that we know - no significant movement of the price, hence we can say that demand for token did not have significant increase as long as we dont have different information we can factor in...

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If it's only 9% of your damage, you may be facing the wrong direction.

or in real situations its not as powerfull as people think based on simulations...

[Eurhetemec]

So all you got is personal attacks. Noted.

What? I told you to read the site. That's not even arguably a personal attack. Read the site.

[Tident]

fair point, but if there was no movement there would have to be factor that would decrese the demand for token aproximately in the same amount it was increased by BoE items, otherwise there would be SOME movement, and as we have no information of anything happening that could decrease the demand, its just guessing...
so untill we know or at least can assume there was something like that, there is only information that we know - no significant movement of the price, hence we can say that demand for token did not have significant increase as long as we dont have different information we can factor in...

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or in real situations its not as powerfull as people think based on simulations...

Your millage will vary.. I found corruption plays a major role in pvp where the burst from some traits ends matches near instantly. In pve I noticed a massive output difference from having good corruptions.

Its 7-15% of a damage boost to people playing the game perfectly. If you are not pulling roughly the numbers you sim for it becomes even more powerful in most cases as all it takes to proc is impacting your target not your ideal rotation.

[wargone]

yes your right. ofc your right. you won, you finaly beat blizzard. so now you dont have to visit a wow forum anymore

[Lolites]

Its 7-15% of a damage boost to people playing the game perfectly.

this might be, but not 40% as some people claim in this thread... thats not even real in ideal conditions on dummy

[Tident]

this might be, but not 40% as some people claim in this thread... thats not even real in ideal conditions on dummy

Usually they are talking about infinite stars on a stationary target. In theory it can hit that mark but it is a ramp up. When it is doing that much usually it is with full stacks after a long period of time Far longer then any boss will let you focus it even the marathon ones like she of fear.

[Eurhetemec]

First of all, "pay-to-win" is not something that you're going to find in a dictionary. People have been using the term to describe different things since "pay-to-win" elements first came up but this tells us nothing about the utility of those definitions. Secondly, there obviously are degrees. Technically, buying the new expansion raises your level cap and gives you access to gear you would otherwise not have but no one would call that pay to win. It really comes down to how it affects the game though, doesn't it? If you can only compete at a really high level by spending thousands of dollars worth of gold on BoEs then it incentivizes putting additional money into the game. If a single purchase can boost your performance by 10, 20 or even 30% then it seems to me that the game creates an unhealthy incentive for people who have the spare cash (I actually know several people who spent real money at the start of the expansion in order to buy darkmoon decks (though they were considerably cheaper and had less of an impact)).

There's little evidence that people are paying RL money for corrupted items. Indeed the evidence we have suggests they aren't. Rather they're spending their vast reserves or writing IOUs for gold and the like. And this is literally impacting a few hundred people at most. Out of millions.

Whereas in, say, BDO, literally anyone playing for more than a week or two is impacted by vastly more literal P2W elements.

And the real problem is just that corruption is too powerful, and it's a problem that's already basically over, as the race is over. So a few hundred people had a an arguably P2W issue for a few weeks, and you want to act like it's the same as a full-on P2W MMO or a mobile game where you pay RL money for extra lives or something. Really?

If we go by degrees, WoW had like a 1.5/10 (maximum, more like 0.5 really) P2W issue for a few weeks where BDO, say, has a 7/10 one all the time, ESO has a 4/10 one all the time, and most mobile games or Asian grinders are 10/10 P2W all the time.

Storm in a teacup is what this is.

[Sansnom]

Wow didn’t use to sell gold tho, which is what makes it pay to win. When they sell the supply, and control the demand, and it gives you power in game.., that is called pay to win

Well, if you want to try that route. Blizzard is not selling the item either. That item was obtained from another player which played and got the item within the game rules.

A player cannot just buy the item on demand. Just as a player cannot buy gold on demand. That gold is obtained from another player. Just like the BoE. So can Blizzard claim to be in control of the supply?

[SirCowdog]

I don’t see any of those players as “winning”.

This entire thread has been about the definition of what constitutes "winning" in the "Pay to Win" category.

Techincally, even being able to buy gold with real world currency falls under the P2W umbrella, since it's allowing people to leverage their real world money to get ahead in a game which should be only about a player's ability to progress within the rules of the game. The only reason it's commonly acceptable is because the alternative(black market 3rd party gold sellers) are both harmful to the in-game economy and risks the potential of Credit Card fraud.

The counter argument is that the gold itself is not being generated by Blizzard, but rather by other players. So the system is still contained within the game itself, and does not therefore fall under P2W. I don't generally agree with this, but I can see why the argument holds water for many people.

Personally I think that it's almost nonsensical to pay real money to skip ahead in a game about progression. The entire point is the journey of progression. If you skip it all by just swiping your credit card, then you're not really even playing the game.

Sure, there's a few people who only care about competitive performance at the top end. The world first race and such, and those who only want to push high M+ keys. But I think that there's a real problem with the effect that paying for such powerful gear creates within the community. It sets expectations. It feeds the power creep and the expectations for finding groups continue to get higher and higher. Cases where a person might feel like they MUST purchase a gold token in order to afford a powerful piece of gear become more frequent.

It's an overall detriment to the game, in my opinion. And the fact that it's been going on for awhile, and has become an acceptable norm isn't really a good thing. And I REALLY hope that Blizzard has a better solution in Shadowlands to help put the fire out rather than simply feeding it like they did with BOE corrupted gear.

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video is prepared in advance, truths can be bent in a way i cant get from the video itself, thats why i never watch "informational" wow videos, its pointless, its not information but rather point of view of the person making the video

Then you're being willfully ignorant, and your opinion counts for less than nothing. If no one else's opinions matter because you refuse to even listen to them, much less consider them, then why are you even here?