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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by ErrandRunner View Post
    What I find amazing about pro-science types is that dark matter is accepted as real but there is no hard evidence it exists. Dark matter is technically as believable as angels and demons - we just like the sound of it is why the scientific community accepts it.
    "Dark matter" is a placeholder, for whatever it is that causes e.g. galaxies to act as if they have more matter than we can observe. It could be some kind of matter that we can't observe (hence "dark matter") but it could also be something else. It's existence is however supported by numerous observations and mathematical evidence. The comparison with angels and demons is nonsense.
    "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." Paradox of tolerance

  2. #182
    And yet calling it a placeholder...
    Semantics...god in the gaps that science finds acceptable...
    Acquittal doesn't mean exoneration


  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    And yet calling it a placeholder...
    Semantics...god in the gaps that science finds acceptable...
    Nah. I think a god of the gaps-argument here would be if I said that because we don't know what dark matter exactly is, it must be angels and demons.
    "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." Paradox of tolerance

  4. #184
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErrandRunner View Post
    What I find amazing about pro-science types is that dark matter is accepted as real but there is no hard evidence it exists. Dark matter is technically as believable as angels and demons - we just like the sound of it is why the scientific community accepts it.
    Yes which is weird because scientists will claim to be instrumentalists/empiricists when you mention demons or ghost but then they switch over to scientific realism and rationalism when it comes to all the unobservable entities or phenomena such as dark matter. This is why the only criteria for science is based on explanation. There's currently no explanation for demons thus it simply isn't a part of science.
    Last edited by PC2; 2020-03-28 at 04:43 PM.
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    Logical Fallacies: Ad hominem, Generalizing history to pre-determine the future.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    Nah. I think a god of the gaps-argument here would be if I said that because we don't know what dark matter exactly is, it must be angels and demons.
    Sounds like you know something that most physicists lack the arrogance to presume to know.
    Acquittal doesn't mean exoneration


  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Sounds like you know something that most physicists lack the arrogance to presume to know.
    ?

    Sounds like you're ascribing things to me I never said.
    "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." Paradox of tolerance

  7. #187
    Fair enough.
    Acquittal doesn't mean exoneration


  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by ErrandRunner View Post
    What I find amazing about pro-science types is that dark matter is accepted as real but there is no hard evidence it exists. Dark matter is technically as believable as angels and demons - we just like the sound of it is why the scientific community accepts it.
    Do angels and demons exert real, verifiable effects on the world around them that adhere to our understanding of physics? If there was no evidence for dark matter then sure, you could compare it to fantasy. The day angels and demons affect our world through gravitational effects and microwave radiation they can take a place alongside dark matter.

  9. #189
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Do angels and demons exert real, verifiable effects on the world around them that adhere to our understanding of physics? If there was no evidence for dark matter then sure, you could compare it to fantasy. The day angels and demons affect our world through gravitational effects and microwave radiation they can take a place alongside dark matter.
    Yes but the word evidence has the connotation that there is 'concrete' factual data that indicates the existence of dark matter. In reality there is none and we only have 'logic' that implies a theory of dark matter is needed to explain our observation of particles.
    Last edited by PC2; 2020-03-28 at 06:53 PM.
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    Logical Fallacies: Ad hominem, Generalizing history to pre-determine the future.

  10. #190
    People may have captured video evidence but it's always deemed fake.

    - - - Updated - - -

    One curiosity is, when ghosts are caught on video, why do spirits always have the same ethnicity as that country? When was the last time a ouiji board or evp spoke with a Chinese ghost?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by boyzma View Post
    I have experienced enough unexplainable things to not believe. I have seen many things too that although strange could be explained. But to have a large mirror fly out of an empty bathroom, turn a corner and land in the middle of the living room with 6 people...no...that could not be explained....and I have never ran out of a house so fast in my life. That house was really creepy. Aliens? Also have seen too many things not to believe. Thing with me though is ufo's don't scare me....I'm always the one that wants a better look.
    Would you tell us about the mirror experience please?
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Brought some stones to a gunfight...

    Not so famous last words written on a tombstone.

  11. #191
    Titan vindicatorx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AryuFate View Post
    I don’t believe in ghosts or the supernatural because in the age of everything being captured and recorded, the verdict should be out already. And it is. No ghosts.

    Mod Warning: Keep discussion to ghosts and harmless topics, not religion.
    No, I don't believe in any phenomena with no evidence to support the claim that it exists.

  12. #192
    Scarab Lord Thekri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Yes but the word evidence has the connotation that there is 'concrete' factual data that indicates the existence of dark matter. In reality there is none and we only have 'logic' that implies a theory of dark matter is needed to explain our observation of particles.
    Dark matter is a hypothesis, not a concrete material that can be studied. It is a hypothesis because it has tangible effects on observed behaviors of matter and energy, and dark matter is the name we ascribe to whatever is creating those effects. So "Something" is causing gravitational effects that cannot be explained by the observed matter in the universe. What that "Something" consists of is unclear, but we call whatever it is "Dark Matter" because we haven't observed it.

    Belief in dark matter itself isn't the same as believing in Angels and Demons, because Dark Matter must be something, because we can observe its effects (Unless that something turns out to be a really dramatic math mistake). Because we see effects that cannot be explained by known causes, the dark matter hypothesis is scientifically necessary. If scientists unflinchingly believed in certain properties of dark matter, you might have a point. But they don't. They have a lot of theories about what its properties might be, and they are looking for evidence that could shed some light on it, but they don't really have anything to go on beyond extrapolation from its effects.

    Angels and Demons on the other hand have no observable effects that cannot be explained with existing phenomena, and therefore are scientifically unnecessary. Science doesn't say they definitely don't exist, it simply says it is not necessary for them to exist, because the universe could work exactly the same without them (As far as we know). However without dark matter, we can't explain how the universe actually works, so we need that theory.
    "We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine." DJT- Jan 22, 2020
    "And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done." DJT- Feb 26, 2020
    “It’s going to disappear. One day — it’s like a miracle — it will disappear.” DJT- Feb 27, 2020

  13. #193
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    Dark matter is a hypothesis, not a concrete material that can be studied. It is a hypothesis because it has tangible effects on observed behaviors of matter and energy, and dark matter is the name we ascribe to whatever is creating those effects. So "Something" is causing gravitational effects that cannot be explained by the observed matter in the universe. What that "Something" consists of is unclear, but we call whatever it is "Dark Matter" because we haven't observed it.

    Belief in dark matter itself isn't the same as believing in Angels and Demons, because Dark Matter must be something, because we can observe its effects (Unless that something turns out to be a really dramatic math mistake). Because we see effects that cannot be explained by known causes, the dark matter hypothesis is scientifically necessary. If scientists unflinchingly believed in certain properties of dark matter, you might have a point. But they don't. They have a lot of theories about what its properties might be, and they are looking for evidence that could shed some light on it, but they don't really have anything to go on beyond extrapolation from its effects.

    Angels and Demons on the other hand have no observable effects that cannot be explained with existing phenomena, and therefore are scientifically unnecessary. Science doesn't say they definitely don't exist, it simply says it is not necessary for them to exist, because the universe could work exactly the same without them (As far as we know). However without dark matter, we can't explain how the universe actually works, so we need that theory.
    Right yeah I agree with this. What I don't get is why an empiricist would believe that dark matter is scientific when we can't directly observe it, in my view that person is just a rationalist who is in denial about how we gain knowledge indirectly.
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    Logical Fallacies: Ad hominem, Generalizing history to pre-determine the future.

  14. #194
    Scarab Lord Thekri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Right yeah I agree with this. What I don't get is why an empiricist would believe that dark matter is scientific when we can't directly observe it, in my view that person is just a rationalist who is in denial about how we gain knowledge indirectly.
    That is fair. Honestly I don't think Physics is a great line of work for an empiricist in the first place, because a great many of those concepts are theoretical, and we get pretty much all our knowledge about Astrophysics from indirect sources.
    "We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine." DJT- Jan 22, 2020
    "And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done." DJT- Feb 26, 2020
    “It’s going to disappear. One day — it’s like a miracle — it will disappear.” DJT- Feb 27, 2020

  15. #195
    I want to believe. Unfortunately, I havent seen anything to completely convince me.

    There have been some videos that come close, but I'm always driven to think, "Oh, they did it this way, that's clever" as opposed to "Its a g g g ghost!".

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Do angels and demons exert real, verifiable effects on the world around them that adhere to our understanding of physics? If there was no evidence for dark matter then sure, you could compare it to fantasy. The day angels and demons affect our world through gravitational effects and microwave radiation they can take a place alongside dark matter.
    You'd think if a supernatural being is "omnipresent" and described as glowing we'd pick up some radiation from it by now. It'd at least be a start.

    It's weird. People positing supernatural want it both ways: asserting that these things manifest in physical reality in ways people have detected, but also that they're somehow conveniently above science and any attempts to demonstrate their existence clearly, unlike literally everything else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Right yeah I agree with this. What I don't get is why an empiricist would believe that dark matter is scientific when we can't directly observe it, in my view that person is just a rationalist who is in denial about how we gain knowledge indirectly.
    It's an early theory in science, just like gravity used to be. Someday our knowledge of it may improve, or we simply don't have the mental capacity to understand it, or it simply cannot be measured. I hope the first of those options is the right one, because learning new things keeps humans pushing forward.
    Quote Originally Posted by blobbydan View Post
    We're all doomed. Let these retards shuffle the chairs on the titanic. They can die in a safe space if they want to... Whatever. What a miserable joke this life is. I can't wait until it's all finally over and I can return to the sweet oblivion of the void.

  18. #198
    Who knows? Maybe ghosts are people from an alternate dimension of space or time, being windowed unawares.

  19. #199
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fincayra View Post
    It's an early theory in science, just like gravity used to be. Someday our knowledge of it may improve, or we simply don't have the mental capacity to understand it, or it simply cannot be measured. I hope the first of those options is the right one, because learning new things keeps humans pushing forward.
    Of course, our knowledge of everything will improve. For dark matter we simply don't know if it will be based on a particle that can be directly observed, I guess it's 50:50 until we get more information.
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    Logical Fallacies: Ad hominem, Generalizing history to pre-determine the future.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Right yeah I agree with this. What I don't get is why an empiricist would believe that dark matter is scientific when we can't directly observe it, in my view that person is just a rationalist who is in denial about how we gain knowledge indirectly.
    I think part of this argument hinges on you inferring a stance that isn’t being taken.

    The initial references to “dark matter” in this thread were made by a poster equating it to the supernatural. That’s just a gross misunderstanding of the subject. I’m well aware that dark matter isn’t a directly observable thing (for lack of a better word). Thekri explained it well enough. The important part for this discussion is that it’s a theory derived from observable behaviors of cosmic bodies.

    You also have to take into account the kind of posters we’re responding to in this thread. Are you really going to expect someone to understand an in-depth explanation of dark matter if they come to the table believing it to be no different than angels and demons?

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