Why are so many Alliance factions open to the Horde?

[VladlTutushkin]

You're weirdly obsessed with the horde for someone this loyal to the alliance.

Because Horde fun always comes at our expense and when we want some in return Horde riots and says that we are “unreasonable”.

[Combatbutler]

Because Horde fun always comes at our expense and when we want some in return Horde riots and says that we are “unreasonable”.

It is the way the narrative is written by Blizz, if you want to have such fun you have to faction switch, Horde and Alliance playerbases are pretty much the same and I really don't get why people limit themselves to one and then pump up their factions as if these factions would matter or are something great. Bottomline Alliance and Horde are an absolute joke, without soul or substance to it, since they are both abysmally fleshed out and as a result are equally retarded.

[Mehrunes]

I was about to ask whether you're always so sarcastic, hostile, and one-upsman about your posting, but then I remembered who I was talking to. You know, not everyone goes around posting on the forums trying to get "sick burns in their mind". You might be projecting a bit there.

You putting yourself on some moral high ground here works oh, so very much with you explicitly implying I was not using my head in your initial post.

As for the WMD thing ingredients that can be used to make WMDs are usually covered under the same laws. Having enriched uranium will get you nailed to the wall by the international community as badly as actually having a weapon.

You're talking out of your hat about something you are quite obviously not well informed about. Most nuclear power plants require enriched uranium. Which is why the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons explicitly states that nation must be able either to enrich uranium or purchase it on an international market (as long as it's done in accordance with the non-proliferation part of the treaty). It's almost as if the very reason why the IAEA exists is to monitor things like what various states are using their enriched uranium for and to monitor the global trade of it. The same goes for reprocessed plutonium even though it can be used for both nuclear weaponry and MOX fuel.

Not that this part of the NPT is actually binding. Because nuclear non-proliferation treaties are usually not binding. The first treaty that prohibits nuclear weapons in comprehensive manner. (most non-proliferation treaties have an extremely narrow scope and usually cover things like specific types of missiles) that is legally binding. And it was passed only in 2017. Except for the part it's not actually binding yet because not enough countries have signed it so far.

And even on national level the claim that those ingredients are covered under the same laws is bogus. Again, both enriched uranium and plutonium are also used by nuclear power plants. Including commercial ones. And the laws that allow them to obtain nuclear material is sure as hell not the same law that prohibits private organizations from owning nuclear weapons. Generally speaking the ability to obtain nuclear material for your power plant requires a license, as is the case in US for example, where licences are given by the NRC. Can you show me any country in the world where weapon of mass destruction are subject to licences?

Furthermore, it still has squat to do with what you were replying to whatsoever because none of this applied to Azerite at the relevant point in time which was the very point of what you replied to.

As for the goblin thing, Alliance don't need an excuse to kill people. "Hey, these people have something we want to look at. Let's kill them and take it." Typically Alliance mindset. Of course as soon as the Alliance knew what the stuff could do they immediately jumped on the "anyone who's no us and has this stuff needs to die so they can't use it against us" train.

First of all you're moving the goalposts. Secondly, it completely changes the framework here because Alliance killing people just because gives the Horde a casus belli whereas the whole point about Azerite supposedly being a WMD was an attempt to justify the Alliance. Alas, you seem to still be utterly unwilling to even remotely familiarize yourself with the context of the discussion you joined.

Find me one quest calling the Dalaran mages around the crater former Dalaran magi. You won't find it.

Find me a post of me talking about those Mages. I'm sorry, is this goalpost movement supposed to salvage your claims about Amber Mill or something?

[Thage]

- The Kirin Tor. I know that they've always had strong ties with Silvermoon but it was originally a human kingdom. And we all know how the Horde betrayed them back in MoP.

Put simply, the Kirin Tor's wavering allegiances amount to how badly the one in charge is focused on getting shit done. Rhonin's focus was on fighting back the Scourge and dealing with the Blue Dragonflight, Azeroth's resident masters of magic. Both problems required as many hands on deck as possible; he needed the Horde's troops to help shore up the Silver Covenant and Sunreavers' numbers, and he let in the Sunreavers in the first place because the Kirin Tor needed the blood elf magisters' help in dealing with the Blue Dragonflight problem. Under Jaina, the Kirin Tor reaffiliated with the Alliance but tried to stay out of it until the Divine Bell incident, at which point they shored up the Alliance's magical presence. Under Khadgar, again, there were bigger problems at hand, and Dalaran's mobility made it a perfect base of operations for the class orders (who had taken up the heavy lifting after the absolute beating the Alliance and Horde took, and with faction leadership distracted waging a three-front war).

- Argent Dawn (now Argent Crusade).

At first, the Argent Dawn did not have the luxury of turning away help. Their forces were concentrated at Light's Hope Chapel and they were surrounded on all sides by Scourge and the Scarlet Crusade, whom they had broken away from when the Scarlets became zealots. Since Tirion's return, the Crusade exploded in membership because of the recent Scourge invasions and the Crusade coordinated the Northrend campaigns from the ground. They're neutral because they're deep in hostile territory and need the numbers from both factions in order to achieve their goals, and so long as that neutrality is respected, they're not going to pick a side.

- Knights of the Silver Hand. Originally a human organisation of Paladins, now Paladins of every race are allowed in (including Blood Elves and Tauren).

The Silver Hand, like all the other class orders, was bringing all hands on deck because we were in the middle of the largest Legion invasion in Azeroth's history--bigger even than the War of the Ancients. When your alternative is apocalypse, you'd be an idiot to turn people away with the ability and willingness to help, and a suicidal idiot at that. Afterwards, bonds forged in fire trumped political affiliations.

- Cenarion Circle and Cenarion Expedition. I know this is technically a Night Elf organisation, but anyway. This one makes the least sense of them all. Not even Night Elf women were allowed in when it was first founded. Now every idiot that can grow a pumpkin gets a membership. It makes even less sense after the War of Thorns. Malfurion is the leader of the CC, why hasn't he kicked out all the Tauren and Trolls yet?

After the Third War, night elf society restructured so men were allowed to join the Sentinels and the priesthood, and women who exhibited druidic potential were allowed into the Cenarion Circle. They didn't have the luxury of turning away people who showed promise just to enforce old traditions. This is, you'll notice, a recurring trend in these factions. Furthermore, Hamuul is also a leader in the Cenarion Circle, and the Cenarions and Earthen Ring are both active in Silithus trying to heal the world-wound. While the Cenarion Circle has likely rescinded the membership of Sylvanas's loyalists, as a faction there aren't enough members for the Circle to achieve its goals with only Alliance members.

edit: And honestly, with the current geopolitical situation, it would be more likely for Shan'do Stormrage to have his position in the Circle rescinded, as he's more focused on avenging the burning of Teldrassil and fighting the Horde than on the Cenarion Circle's agenda (understandbly-so, but the fact remains), than it would be for the Circle to rescind Hamuul's and that of the other tauren and troll druids, considering Hamuul and many of his fellow tauren and trolls spent the whole war in Silithus managing that crisis.

- The Wardens. Led by quite possible the most xenophobic Night Elf out there, yet they have no trouble working together with the Horde. Eventually bites them in the ass when Nathanos kills Sira and raises her as a forsaken.

Once again, manpower is a luxury they did not have in the face of apocalypse.

[Lieutenant Commander]

Find me a post of me talking about those Mages. I'm sorry, is this goalpost movement supposed to salvage your claims about Amber Mill or something?

So you admit Horde killed Kirin Tor in Cataclysm? Cool, that was the point.

[Ardenaso]

Once again I need to remind everyone that the Horde Druids were literally kept in the dark during the War of the Thorns and they were too occupied in dealing with the Wound. I'm sure Malfurion understands it and he forgave them

[Feanoro]

As for the goblin thing, Alliance don't need an excuse to kill people. "Hey, these people have something we want to look at. Let's kill them and take it." Typically Alliance mindset.

More likely the few people with sanity realize "Hmm, the Horde is interested in it. Obviously it's for their extensive farms, peaceful villages, and tranquil gardens... wait no, they only give a damn about mass murdering everyone else and plundering the ruins. Maybe we should see how they can use this as a weapon."

Meanwhile, Anduin is busy holding a tea party with his dollies.

Of course as soon as the Alliance knew what the stuff could do they immediately jumped on the "anyone who's not us and has this stuff needs to die so they can't use it against us" train.

Self defense mindset against proven bloodthirsty savages seems perfectly normal.

[cparle87]

More likely the few people with sanity realize "Hmm, the Horde is interested in it. Obviously it's for their extensive farms, peaceful villages, and tranquil gardens... wait no, they only give a damn about mass murdering everyone else and plundering the ruins. Maybe we should see how they can use this as a weapon."

Meanwhile, Anduin is busy holding a tea party with his dollies.

Self defense mindset against proven bloodthirsty savages seems perfectly normal.

If it was the rest of the Horde I'd agree with you. But it's goblins. They'll gather and sell anything if they think they can spin a profit. It doesn't neccesarily have to be weapons or something dangerous. These guys were just digging and got killed. Which as Taran Zhu said back in MoP each attack is an act of aggression and each act of revenge an act of aggression.

[Feanoro]

If it was the rest of the Horde I'd agree with you. But it's goblins. They'll gather and sell anything if they think they can spin a profit. It doesn't neccesarily have to be weapons or something dangerous. These guys were just digging and got killed. Which as Taran Zhu said back in MoP each attack is an act of aggression and each act of revenge an act of aggression.

I'd agree were it not Horde aligned goblins, explicitly shown acting in the Horde's interests by the cinematic with Gallywix.

[Mardux]

More likely the few people with sanity realize "Hmm, the Horde is interested in it. Obviously it's for their extensive farms, peaceful villages, and tranquil gardens... wait no, they only give a damn about mass murdering everyone else and plundering the ruins. Maybe we should see how they can use this as a weapon."

Meanwhile, Anduin is busy holding a tea party with his dollies.

Self defense mindset against proven bloodthirsty savages seems perfectly normal.

"Better steamroll this small village because its on the way to undercity than to go around it. Lets set up camp on the ruins just to rub salt in." - the alliance

[kranur]

So what's the deal with making factions that were originally Alliance affiliated neutral? It's honestly insulting to Alliance players that iconic alliance factions are now open to the Horde. Examples of these factions include:

- The Kirin Tor. I know that they've always had strong ties with Silvermoon but it was originally a human kingdom. And we all know how the Horde betrayed them back in MoP.

- Argent Dawn (now Argent Crusade).

- Knights of the Silver Hand. Originally a human organisation of Paladins, now Paladins of every race are allowed in (including Blood Elves and Tauren).

- Cenarion Circle and Cenarion Expedition. I know this is technically a Night Elf organisation, but anyway. This one makes the least sense of them all. Not even Night Elf women were allowed in when it was first founded. Now every idiot that can grow a pumpkin gets a membership. It makes even less sense after the War of Thorns. Malfurion is the leader of the CC, why hasn't he kicked out all the Tauren and Trolls yet?

- The Wardens. Led by quite possible the most xenophobic Night Elf out there, yet they have no trouble working together with the Horde. Eventually bites them in the ass when Nathanos kills Sira and raises her as a forsaken.

Times change. Not a very long time ago women couldn't vote IRL

[cparle87]

I'd agree were it not Horde aligned goblins, explicitly shown acting in the Horde's interests by the cinematic with Gallywix.

Don't mistake what we know as players with what the characters in the game know. I try to keep in a Watsonian mindset when discussing game events.

[Feanoro]

"Better steamroll this small village because its on the way to undercity than to go around it. Lets set up camp on the ruins just to rub salt in." - the alliance

Oh, is Brill the new Taurajo?

Horde players: We want to destroy Alliance cities and genocide their core races! They deserve it for being so boring!
Also Horde players: Ermagerd, how DARE they fight back and take out our crucial five tents outpost/village/dot on the map!

- - - Updated - - -

Don't mistake what we know as players with what the characters in the game know. I try to keep in a Watsonian mindset when discussing game events.

Hmm, I thought it was no secret the goblins were Horde?

[cparle87]

Oh, is Brill the new Taurajo?

Horde players: We want to destroy Alliance cities and genocide their core races! They deserve it for being so boring!
Also Horde players: Ermagerd, how DARE they fight back and take out our crucial five tents outpost/village/dot on the map!

- - - Updated - - -

Hmm, I thought it was no secret the goblins were Horde?

They didn't know they were Horde-aligned goblins, I don't think. Has it be so long that people have forgotten most goblins are neutral? What if they were Booty Bay, or Gadgetzan, or Venture Co.? Admittedly later would be ok, too, but I hope you get my point. They went in blind. Imagine Alliance going in, slaughtering a bunch of tauren and trolls, then getting an angry letter from the Cenarion Circle going "wtf bro?"

[Feanoro]

They didn't know they were Horde-aligned goblins, I don't think. Has it be so long that people have forgotten most goblins are neutral? What if they were Booty Bay, or Gadgetzan, or Venture Co.? Admittedly later would be ok, too, but I hope you get my point. They went in blind. Imagine Alliance going in, slaughtering a bunch of tauren and trolls, then getting an angry letter from the Cenarion Circle going "wtf bro?"

Yes, obviously I get the point if they were indeed neutral. I thought it was made clear they were Horde aligned, may need to recheck.

[MikeBogina]

Because outside from faction conflict expansions the Horde is utterly irrelevant for the story and Blizzard can't even be bothered to use or create proper factions for them.

That is why i have to constantly follow fucking Brann Bronzebeard from the Explorers League around with my Horde characters, instead of following Highwatcher Tae'thelan Bloodwatcher from the Reliquary. Or why i have to follow Khadgar through WoD as a Horde character, instead of some Horde mage/warlock/shaman whatever doing his job. As, again, Blizzard can't even be arsed to build up a proper Horde mage like Rommath for example.

So much this.

Regardless of what some whiny alliance players say, Warcraft is about the Alliance and the Horde only exists to fill a unique enemy roll, that the other enemy factions don't. The "occasional ally that betrays us, but we show mercy" one.

[Grazrug]

So you admit Horde killed Kirin Tor in Cataclysm? Cool, that was the point.

Sorry. But you ain't gonna make any Horde feel guilty for killing military forces, that were shouting their support for the Alliance, taking all of lordaeron. From the literal rooftops.

You don't get to claim "they attacked a poor neutral party." when said party willingly left their neutrality in the dirt.

[Zuben]

Disregarding the bias in OP, I would like Horde to have its own factions for stuff. Like the Explorer's League, it's sometimes neutral, but mainly Alliance, so it was great Horde got Reliquary in Cataclysm to have a similar faction of its own. Sometimes I enjoy the neutral factions, I mean, Khadgar was great in WoD and Legion, it would've been sad if Horde hadn't gotten to know him. Having said that, Horde has had considerable arcane-resources of its own since TBC with the addition of blood elves and now even more with the nightborne. It's weird that it's always Kirin Tor dragging us about when we have mages leading the charge. Even weirder when you consider the falling out in MoP, where Sunreaver citizens were massacred/imprisoned for something they had nothing to do with, leading to animosity on both sides; all that was wiped under the rug in WoD, with only Jaina stating mild opposition at one point in the legendary questline. By this point it's hard to turn the Kirin Tor fully Alliance again, but tbh they can take a step back in general, leaving Alliance's arcane matters to Stormwind and/or the Highborne. Khadgar is also the Guardian nowadays, so if the writers want to include him in things they can do so without towing the Kirin Tor along.

[Akka]

Not all of them were "Alliance affiliated".

The Kirin Tor is a FOUNDING MEMBER OF THE ALLIANCE.
The Knight of the Silver Hand were CREATED BY THE ALLIANCE TO FIGHT THE HORDE in Warcraft 2.

Even if "not all are Alliance-aligned", the point stands.

[tankbug]

Well, if Blizzard makes all factions that has a role to play in the world alliance based, then how will the Horde ever do any faction-neutral content? The alliance, or alliance-race based characters already hog all important lore out there, Sylvanas being the only current exception (but barely qualifies being an ex-elf). The Horde can't contribute with their leaders (unless toppling their own mad tyrants), and now the horde race commoners can't have roles in what should be neutral factions either? Well, fine, shove the Cenarion Circle, the Kirin Tor and all of them back into the Alliance, and make twice the content. Or perhaps you meant that Hordies should just sit on their asses in Orgrimmar with nothing to do?