Covenant Abilities... this looks BAD...

[Gorsameth]

I know people like to just throw phrases around, but "I don't think this can be balanced" can really not be countered with "it is just alpha."

The numbers don't have to be balanced right now, because it's alpha, but the problem here is that the basic idea behind the system is flawed. We have seen over and over again how the community deals with choices. We have seen how blizzard reacts to imbalances. Both of that doesnt work with a system where you tie yourself to a faction.

This will just the up as the constant source of anger that blizzard will try to balance for two patches until they finally give up and open up the restrictions.

This indeed.
The numbers are not the problem, the tweaking isn't not the problem. The problem is the fundamental design of many different abilities with many different effects that by their basic design will be problematic.
And that is very much something to complain about as early as possible because it takes time and resources to change this system. Tho I expect Blizzard is already to far committed to scrap this and go with something else that will allow more choice for players without punishing them for picking the 'wrong' faction.

[united]

A bunch of heroic raiders in this thread "worried" that picking the covenant they actually find fun will inhibit their performance.

[Nobleshield]

The major problem is going to be that there will be a "best" choice, which means you are handicapping yourself if you pick something for flavor. like if I want my Paladin to be Kyrian because of the lore/flavor (they are basically angelic after all) but oh hey the Necro guys have the best Paladin ability. So all of a sudden I can't pick what fits my character, I have to pick the better choice or I risk being rejected from content because I don't have whatever FOTM ability has been deemed the only optimal choice.

[Lahis]

A bunch of heroic raiders in this thread "worried" that picking the covenant they actually find fun will inhibit their performance.

Well unless their fun covenant is the top DPS for their spec, it will. No way around that fact.

[Nobleshield]

A bunch of heroic raiders in this thread "worried" that picking the covenant they actually find fun will inhibit their performance.

Because ultimately it will. We all know how the min-maxing 1% mindset trickles down to affect the rest of the game, even if we deny it happens. Once all the mythic guilds have decided that only X covenant for Y class is the "right" choice everyone else will parrot that whether or not it really affects them, the perception will be you aren't playing optimally.

We saw it with talents, we saw it with Artifacts and Legendaries, we saw it with Azerite/Essences/Corruption, we'll see it with Covenant.

[Lolites]

Are regular talents not impactful choices?

you can switch talents for each boss, so... no, not at all?

[Nerovar]

you can switch talents for each boss, so... no, not at all?

Okay. What does the word impactful mean to you? Can you define it for me?

[Aucald]

The major problem is going to be that there will be a "best" choice, which means you are handicapping yourself if you pick something for flavor. like if I want my Paladin to be Kyrian because of the lore/flavor (they are basically angelic after all) but oh hey the Necro guys have the best Paladin ability. So all of a sudden I can't pick what fits my character, I have to pick the better choice or I risk being rejected from content because I don't have whatever FOTM ability has been deemed the only optimal choice.

I don't think there's any way to truly prevent that mindset for persevering, to be honest. The main point to underline here is what "handicapping yourself" actually entails on a statistical level. If we're talking like a 20-30% power increase for a given choice relative to the others then yes, that's bad; but if the difference is in the single digits then that's not really so bad. Some Covenant picks are always going to work out to be statistically superior to others for certain classes or specs, that's kind of how unique abilities and math works in the final accounting. But if the difference is slight, then I think it's okay to make a sacrifice for aesthetic or narrative preference.

[Musta]

They gonna need a lot of feedback and listening to it, it looks not so good

[Lolites]

Because ultimately it will. We all know how the min-maxing 1% mindset trickles down to affect the rest of the game, even if we deny it happens. Once all the mythic guilds have decided that only X covenant for Y class is the "right" choice everyone else will parrot that whether or not it really affects them, the perception will be you aren't playing optimally.

We saw it with talents, we saw it with Artifacts and Legendaries, we saw it with Azerite/Benthic/Corruption, we'll see it with Covenant.

well if people are unable to make their choice that is on them, not on blizz
my frost DK will play necrolords even if i didnt get any ability at all just bcs of the transmog set

[Protean]

well there is this thing called "testing" which will be done over the next few months before the expansion is released. I mean we don't even have them all yet. I am guessing Blizz will try to make them attractive to the type of content that you enjoy doing, whether that be M+ or Raiding or PvP

Because legendaries in legion and azerite pieces / essences / corruptions were SOOOOOO balanced and not at all a dumb lottery.

[Nerovar]

well if people are unable to make their choice that is on them, not on blizz
my frost DK will play necrolords even if i didnt get any ability at all just bcs of the transmog set

Come on. Blizzard knows exactly that a large part of the playerbase cares about their performance. Forcing those players to choose between performance and aesthetics is absolutely on Blizzard since they're the ones who designed this system.

I mean, it's cool that you don't care about these things but many people do and it can really negatively impact their experience.

[Musta]

This indeed.
The numbers are not the problem, the tweaking isn't not the problem. The problem is the fundamental design of many different abilities with many different effects that by their basic design will be problematic.
And that is very much something to complain about as early as possible because it takes time and resources to change this system. Tho I expect Blizzard is already to far committed to scrap this and go with something else that will allow more choice for players without punishing them for picking the 'wrong' faction.

I agree, theres problems in this system.

[dlhak]

Just because somebody disagree, doesn't make them a "Blizzard fanatic"

But even if you like to call them that no matter what - this is not a problem for the "Blizzard fanatics". Blizzard fanatics don't need an excuse to play the game. They play it because they like it. Ofc you can also say they play it because they are blind fanboys, brainwashed idiots, white knights etc etc.

Which is pretty bad...sure.

Now...what is YOUR excuse? I'd say anyone here who claims that "Blizzard is incompetent, never learns, never listens, ruined the game, done so for x-pac after x-pac and will continue to do so" yet STILL gives them their money has a LOT more to answer for than somebody who enjoys playing the game for whatever reasons.



Absolutely, same here. I sure hope any cosmetics I unlock will apply to all armour types - but as it is, atm I will make my choice on RPG reasons.

Kyrian for Priest / Paladin
Necrolords for Warlock, DK
Fae for Druid
Venthyr for Warrior

Undecided on all my other alts...of which I have many

Blizzard handeling BfA beta test complaints about Azerite, RNG, GCD ... they even made changes to the weekly chest when the game went live without communicating about it.

Shadowlands alpha/beta will be like BfA's just a marketing scheme to build up hype. Blizzard showed us they don't care about players feedback in alpha/beta.

If you think Blizzard is listening to its playerbase and making adjustments to their games following their feedback, you are just a fanatic.

[Lolites]

Okay. What does the word impactful mean to you? Can you define it for me?

impactful choice is the one that have consequences that you have to deal with, doesnt matter if good or bad,
talents dont have that at all, as you can simply switch them - dont even have to go to town, just use a book and switch, simple as that
now, IF you could only switch talents lets say once a week, that could be impactful choice

- - - Updated - - -

Come on. Blizzard knows exactly that a large part of the playerbase cares about their performance. Forcing those players to choose between performance and aesthetics is absolutely on Blizzard since they're the ones who designed this system.

I mean, it's cool that you don't care about these things but many people do and it can really negatively impact their experience.

then they also force you to play best class and spec i guess?

[Raisei]

As I said, I don't look exclusively "to the meta game". I also care about cosmetics and the actual lore of the game. But this doesn't make covenants better for me. It makes them even worse. If I only cared about competetiveness I'd just pick the BiS option and be done with it.

Then go by what is more important to you. 1,5% more dps or making choices that fit your character and the Lore. Really the problem is that you are dramatizing the whole afair. There will be some balance between the Covenants, but it won't be perfect, just as class balance is there, but not perfect. The difference will never be so big that it makes your class unplayable, it will be a few percent at most.

Yes? I'm assuming that Blizzard isn't lying to us and therefor when they say they want to do A they'll do A and not B. Why would you assume that they're not going to make switching covenants punishing when it's literally what they said? Are you ok?

And you don't think Blizzard saw all the whining about that in the last 5 month? The entire system could have been changed by now and we would never know since we never saw how punishing it was meant to be when they conceived the system.
We do not even know what difficulties they meant. Will we have to invest time to switch Covenants as in refarming or will we have to spend a few weeks worth of Anima on it and be done instantly? You just want to assume the worst case, because that drama is so delicious.

Competetively as in competing with other players?

I was refering to the level on which you would apply this... that probably went over your head. The point is, looking to the 5% of MDI and Mythic Raiders that actually NEED to perform at the absolute top, for gameplay decisions is foolish. The game is balanced around Heroic level and every class can perform there, with some pulling ahead.
My personal observation is however that the people that are actually competetive easily make up for the inherent differences in class balance by putting time and effort into their chosen class, while the meta victims on their FoTM classes regularly fall behind because they do not bring the experience with the classes.

The rest of your post is simply ridiculous. The existence of imbalance in the game doesn't mean it's ok or good to intentionally add more layers of imbalance to the game.

You seem to make a habit of calling every last argument leveled against you as "non-argument", "ridiculous" or "inconsequential", so I doubt this post will fare any better.

[Adramalech]

What would you have them do....scrap the idea? I remember a time when people said "Oh this looks cool!"

I think it looks cool. I'll judge the balance of it all, during alpha testing and see if they attempt to do it.

It DOES look cool. I like the concept quite a bit. I just know better than to trust them with balancing this in a way that won't punish even those of us who don't min-max by making us pick the "wrong" one.

I'm not judging yet. We have too little information. Maybe they changed their minds in being "costly" to switch Covenants. Maybe they'll actually do a good job of balancing. But for the time being, I'm bracing for the worst case scenario.

[Gorsameth]

impactful choice is the one that have consequences that you have to deal with, doesnt matter if good or bad,
talents dont have that at all, as you can simply switch them - dont even have to go to town, just use a book and switch, simple as that
now, IF you could only switch talents lets say once a week, that could be impactful choice

If your looking for meaningful choices your looking in the wrong place in MMO's.

[MrLachyG]

Because legendaries in legion and azerite pieces / essences / corruptions were SOOOOOO balanced and not at all a dumb lottery.

well azerite pieces I don't believe were ever tested properly. and I fail to see how a dumb lottery has anything to do with this, as the covenant system is most certainly not a lottery. essences are also not a dumb lottery, you work towards the one you want and use it, just like you will for convenants. corruption is absolutely a dumb lottery, not going to argue with you on that one. legendaries in Legion were a good concept but they should have had the wakening essence system in from day 1 so you could at least buy your bis one

[Adam Jensen]

some people wont be happy
but given some people wont be happy if it is perfectly balanced, and others wont be happy no matter what... so it doesnt really matter what they do, people will whine and moan and bitch about it till the end of time...
most acurat take on peoples opinion on balance was in DL comic
https://www.darklegacycomics.com/558

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