Covenant Abilities... this looks BAD...

[NineSpine]

This... this honestly doesn't make any sense... What you are describing is the definition of customization...

What you are arguing for is permanence and a lack of customization and I don't think many people are on board with judging by the posts.

Customization requires some degree of permanence. If you can change at any moment, it isn't customization.

And the fact that this board is full of crybabys who throw tantrums over everything in the game does not mean that the general playerbase thinks that way.

[Lazuli]

Maybe he doesn't play with total pieces of shit?

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The purpose is to find bugs and tune things, not to decide whether to radically alter the core design of the product.

Then they should actually tune things before release of the game, my point with legion was extreme drastic balance changes during live game which should have been adjusted way before the release. Azerite armor was dumb as fuck but no one expected it to just magically get deleted, the smartest option for Blizz is to not design retarded systems in the first place. (I'm guessing thats what you're referring to with core design)

[NineSpine]

Who cares about that if it hampers the actual gameplay and turns it into frustrating system? This isn't 2004 WoW. We can switch specialisations with the click of a button but somehow switching out covenant abilities goes too far? I don't understand what exactly you're arguing for here.

I'm arguing that the destruction of customization has ultimately been incredibly poor for the game.

I find the gameplay more fun, not less fun, when I can make MEANINGFUL customization choices for my character. I do not find it fun when I am a carbon copy of everyone else.

[Laughingjack]

You help all four and then are faced with a choice between them. The intent of helping them all is to give you a good idea of what they are all about before you make the decision. The entire covenant progression system is unique to each covenant.

You aren't being "punished" you fucking baby. Get a grip on reality, whiner.

I mean it really does seem like the goal of this is to punish people who play at higher levels. There are talents that will make or break a class at high level pve and pvp. The argument you are putting forward of "muh rp" doesn't make sense either. Players having the ability to swap talents to enjoy their style of game play in no way hinders your ability to shackle yourself to a single talent should you so chose.

It leads me to believe that your argument for this is based more around the idea you enjoy "min-maxers" as you put it being put off rather then any real enjoyment you gain from such a system.

[Lolites]

You would be much more use for your group if you played Unholy. Why hold them all back like that?

i can do enough dps with frost, so why would i play the spec i hate? if we clear the content, why would it be the issue that i had 5-10% lower dps than i could with unholy?

[Sinfelle]

10 pages of people bitching about ability balance when there are...

...no numbers listed against any of these abilities
...also soulbinds to take into account when it comes to covenant choice

And let's not forget that most of the min/maxing whinging people do in this game is probably not even relevant to them because the extra 0.5% doesn't actually make that much of a difference unless your a hardcore raiding guild pushing content for world firsts.

But haters gotta hate I guess.

Don’t need numbers if the basic mechanical functions are unbalanced. “The Hunt” will always be BiS for DH because of how it works. There is no niche for the ability, it works in every part of moment to moment gameplay and has the function of the BiS legion legendary with the extra fury generation. The other abilities can not compete with it, at all. But it’s tied to the fuckin Night Fae which I can guarantee 90% of DH’s don’t want.

Similar OP abilities, the warrior banner. I don’t play enough of the other specs to distinctly tell which is broken, but I’m sure there’s an obvious BiS for each.

So the argument that “we don’t have the numbers, it’s not released yet” is bullshit, dead on arrival.

[tyrlaan]

No. But I am convinced that a majority of players strives to improve their character and try to get optimal gear/talent/insert-rent-power-system. Do you think that everyone who plays WoW this way must be a competitive mythic raider or esports participant? Well that would make YOU delusional. Getting more powerful and improving your character has always been one of the most integral part of RPGs. If you cannot see that then whatever.

Except each of these abilities will be an improvement. The difference between one or the other will probably amount to the differences between one talent and another, a percentage point or two of DPS, etc.

The majority of players either don't give a shit about squeezing out an extra 0.5% dps at the expense of playing what they enjoy OR only give a shit about such meager gains because elitist internet warriors have convinced them that failing to play like a member of Method is somehow failing at the game.

[longevity]

this is just a new rental talent tier with 4 abilities but each one requires some godawful amount of time to unlock or switch to

just another unnecessary 'system' to add more grind and prevent us from keeping any power past level 100 (soon to change to a new number with the level squish)

[tyrlaan]

Don’t need numbers if the basic mechanical functions are unbalanced. “The Hunt” will always be BiS for DH because of how it works. There is no niche for the ability, it works in every part of moment to moment gameplay and has the function of the BiS legion legendary with the extra fury generation. The other abilities can not compete with it, at all. But it’s tied to the fuckin Night Fae which I can guarantee 90% of DH’s don’t want.

Similar OP abilities, the warrior banner. I don’t play enough of the other specs to distinctly tell which is broken, but I’m sure there’s an obvious BiS for each.

So the argument that “we don’t have the numbers, it’s not released yet” is bullshit, dead on arrival.

And still doesn't take into account soulbinds.

And what if the extra fury is tiny gains? Still BIS?

Sorry, I call bullshit on your call of bullshit.

But have fun complaining that you need 0.5% more DPS so you have "no choice" but to pick a certain Covenant.

[NineSpine]

No. But I am convinced that a majority of players strives to improve their character and try to get optimal gear/talent/insert-rent-power-system. Do you think that everyone who plays WoW this way must be a competitive mythic raider or esports participant? Well that would make YOU delusional. Getting more powerful and improving your character has always been one of the most integral part of RPGs. If you cannot see that then whatever.

Not everyone is obsessed with optimization and perfection. That's the min-maxer attitude, and you are welcome to play the game that way, but stop demanding the entire game be organized around your irrational, OCD approach to a video game.

[Pury]

Covenants give 2 abilities: so-called covenant ratial, utility one and class specific combat one. Let's call them utility and combat abilities.
During our leveling in shadowlands we meet and help all 4 covenants. After finishins each covenant's story we unlock new combat ability in special interface. Four abilities total. And at the end, we join one of covenants, get acces to cosmetics and utility ability, while still beeing able to pick 1 of 4 combat abilities anytime.
This is how it should be done. That way we can have interesting, unique abilities with no issues.

[Lolites]

Or maybe he is the piece of shit.

When you have the easy option to do much better DPS, why wouldn't you take it?

well why take players that play classes that do less dmg into raid if we can fill it with "best" classes?

[tyrlaan]

Not everyone is obsessed with optimization and perfection. That's the min-maxer attitude, and you are welcome to play the game that way, but stop demanding the entire game be organized around your irrational, OCD approach to a video game.

Aye. I really wish we could figure out how to reverse the tide on this mentality. It's toxic to the game.

[Lahis]

i can do enough dps with frost, so why would i play the spec i hate? if we clear the content, why would it be the issue that i had 5-10% lower dps than i could with unholy?

Why even play DPS role if you don't aim to do the best you could?

[Nobleshield]

Aye. I really wish we could figure out how to reverse the tide on this mentality. It's toxic to the game.

It's toxic to everything. I see the same thing in Warhammer, even in D&D, where it's "best or GTFO" and it removes choices and has an overall negative effect on everything.

[tylenol]

Imagine a game belonging to a multi billion dollar company in which all they give you, expansion after expansion and people accept it is rental abilities...

[LanToaster]

What would you have them do....scrap the idea? I remember a time when people said "Oh this looks cool!"

I think it looks cool. I'll judge the balance of it all, during alpha testing and see if they attempt to do it.

Problem is, afaik you are not supposed to change your Covenant. So your Choice is (probably) final.

Now, you have 4 Things your Covenant will give you:
1. Looks - Each have their own Unique Transmogs.
2. Signature Ability
3. Class Ability
4. Talent/Ability Tree

Now to te Problem,

I feel the Aesthethic of my Character is Important, I play Paladin, and initially I feel like from the Looks I need to play the Holy People, and dont want to use the Necro People.

Signature Ability, I dont have a single use for the Holy Peoples ability, I can remove all kinds of Debuffs anyhow, and the Ability is "Daily Cooldown",
Venthyr however offers me something I can actually Use, and feel its usefullness.
Necro Guys offer a TankAbility, which I feel I have to use. While I would rather like the Blink.
Nature guys also offer a Movement Ability which I also probably would like.

Class Ability. Holy People, kinda Nieche, doesnt really hype me.
Venthyr, sound also kinda Meh.
Others are not Disclosed (yet). BUT here, Warriors get (another) mass Root, something which my Paladin would kill for, as just one Example. The Abilites for some Classes sound much more Interesting and Better than for others.

And with the TalentTrees/Ability Trees we get another layer.

Its not even a Balancing Concern. (And Balancing so many so vastly Different Abilities is a Nightmare)

For Once, I really have the feeling from the Start that this will end in a Nightmare. And thats just because I cant see me making a Choice I would be satisfied with.

And the rest 50% will cry and bitch over stuff in a alpha which isnt even live yet, so we have no clue about numbers, cooldowns or limitations.

If it were a "Do X% Damage" thing I would Agree with you. But its not. There is no point in comparing Numbers if you compare a Perk:
"Call a "Utility NPC Once per day", to e.g. a Heavy Defensive Cooldown.

So here's the thing: covenant abilities not balanced doesn't matter for 90% of players, they will choose whatever they like most.

This is also True, but with the many different things assosiated to your one Choice chances are, you not happy with your Choice.

But "this shit" cannot be sorted HERE and NOW because we don't even have the numbers. So in that particular case the argument "it's still alpha" is indeed valid.

Not exactly true. We have gotten the Initial Draft of Abilities.
And its a good thing if concerns are made beeing heard. Especially after other "First Designs" massivly failed.

Yep.
CONCEPT and NUMBERS TUNING are two different things. ... It is NOW for the concept.

And thats the Problem, the concept in itself will (most likely) make people (at least me) Unhappy, because one (at least I) cannot choose correct.

Everyone likes to pretend that Azerite shipped as crap and never changed. And I'm not going to say it's the most perfect thing in the world they have ever done, but it's a damned sight better than what it was and unless you're fully tri-speccing you aren't carrying much more excess gear around than any other expansion.

Soo, and why not voice Concerns, and hope they dont ship a System they need to fix in the first ContentPatch?

Or you could just pick the covenant that seems cool to you.

If I were to do that I would forever feel it was a Stupid choice, because that one doesnt Offer any remotely Usefull Ability. (Right now)

Few things here you are either leaving out or flat out ignoring...

You don't "pick" one covenant you help all four one in each zone. The idea that only one will "lend" you their power is already contrived from a story point of view.

Nothing about the game would change for you if covenants were treated the same as any other talent row. Blizzard trying to punish people who enjoy multiple aspects of their game at high levels seems self destructive and played out poorly in BFA when the cost was only gold to respec Azerite.

It was said on the Blizzcon, on your first Leveling you experience ALL covenant, and choose one on MaxLevel to get Traits, Looks and Ability Trees, second Char you choose one first.

If that was Changed, state your source please.

[puddypounce]

It's threads like these that confirm for me that the players ruined wow not Blizzard.

Blizz: here's four interesting abilities per class. You choose! They all do fun and interesting things.

Players: BuT ThIS oNE dOeS 2% better in MyThiC PlUS.

There will always be a mathematically superior option. Using this an excuse to say game systems should have no player agency is moronic. People play mathematically inferior classes all the time. Just because fire mages are the superior choice in all PVE content doesn't mean everyone is a fire mage. If you're a top tier mythic raider then pick the best option. Everyone else will pick what they prefer.

[Lahis]

well why take players that play classes that do less dmg into raid if we can fill it with "best" classes?

Guilds whose roster can do that, will do that.

[NineSpine]

I mean it really does seem like the goal of this is to punish people who play at higher levels. There are talents that will make or break a class at high level pve and pvp. The argument you are putting forward of "muh rp" doesn't make sense either. Players having the ability to swap talents to enjoy their style of game play in no way hinders your ability to shackle yourself to a single talent should you so chose.

This is as dumb an argument as "Why dont we make all abilities available to all classes and if you want to only use mage abilities, go ahead." If you want a demon pet, you play a warlock. If you want frost magic, you play a mage.

It leads me to believe that your argument for this is based more around the idea you enjoy "min-maxers" as you put it being put off rather then any real enjoyment you gain from such a system.

My argument is based on wanting to make meaningful customization choices for my character, not continue to have the life sucked out of the game by some snobby, shitheads that will never, ever be happy anyway.

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Guilds whose roster can do that, will do that.

Sounds like a good reason not to play with those shitheads.