The Doom of the Warlock

[Kaver]

You just stated every reason DH should be nerfed into the ground.. They do too much.

whatever happened to "bring the player, not the class" oh, blizzard...

They could nerf DH a bit yes. But that wouldn't help Warlocks. I would still rather bring every other class than Warlock. No, maybe not Shadow Priest.

[enigma77]

In Legion Affliction Warlock didn't have a short cd interrupt either and it was pretty much the best class, because it dealt insane damage.

It's fine if Lock can't interrupt or aoe stun as well as some other classes, but what we lack in terms of cc we need to make up for with damage. We don't in BFA, because they designed Affliction to be a single target spec. Demo and Destro don't deal enough damage either.

So in short, glorious affliction damage a la Legion must return. And I think it will in Shadowlands, because other classes' aoe gets nerfed.

[Recovery]

They could nerf DH a bit yes. But that wouldn't help Warlocks. I would still rather bring every other class than Warlock. No, maybe not Shadow Priest.

I would just like to see other classes / specs brought up to par with Rogue, DH, survival, Fire mage. I feel like M+ should work in a way thats similar to arena.. Having compositions that all excel in a different way in m+ would be great gameplay. It doesnt really matter above 15 and all classes are more than viable at 15.. but still.

- - - Updated - - -

In Legion Affliction Warlock didn't have a short cd either and it was pretty much the best class, because it dealt insane damage.

It's fine if Lock can't interrupt or aoe stun as well as some other classes, but what we lack in terms of cc we need to make up for with damage. We don't in BFA, because they designed Affliction to be a single target spec. Demo and Destro don't deal enough damage either.

So in short, glorious affliction damage a la Legion must return. And I think it will in Shadowlands, because other classes' aoe gets nerfed.

I havbe a strong feeling affy is gonna be doing the work in SL. The changes look amazing. Looking at whats going on currently, my first M+ comp is gonna be Prot pal, Spriest, affy, DH, Rsham.

[Yarou]

Well there is a HUGE part of the playerbase that got that kind of a personal problem then. Weird huh.

Is there is a huge people who doesnt move a single milimeter from meta (rogue/dh/mage) its their problem. But top tier m+ players knows that locks got enough niche to do +25 +26 keys where huge playerbase cannot reach, and we can see a demonology lock doing world first boralus 26 or the koran destro lock being in top-20 world dps in m+

[Soluna]

Oh sod it.

We're being either good or top of the food chain for years now. The only downfall now is M+, but when it comes to that in Shlands we're totally should be giggling now because all the AoE crap gets nerfed to shit, which is an indirect buff to warlocks already there.

Raiding-wise, no need to be a prophet to predict that warlocks will remain a premier pick there simply because of unique utility.

Gateways are a mainstay in every tactic there is, I don't think there was even one BfA final boss where gateways were not a thing and at times to ridiculous extent (Ghuun kekw)

I think the problem ain't the numbers here Gaidax, it's the specs themselves. Destro felt fun thanks to the essences and a few key traits like flashpoint, rolling havoc, crashing chaos. Demo felt fun because of demonic invocation trait, explosive potential, and to an extend VoP, demonic meteor, memory passive, etc. All of these will be removed in Shadowlands, and destro/demo will go back to being completely shit fun wise.

To not notice that is just lying straight to ppl's faces. Everything that made these 2 specs fluid is going away. I've been playing warlock for about 9-10 years or so as main, and stuck with it even in legion launch, back when before nighthold, all specs were hot garbage, with demo being the only decent one at ST but shit to play. But I am gonna throw the towel and just enjoy some better designed class in Shadowlands, rather than the low effort warlock specs.

Affliction got some attention, might turn bad, might turn good. I personally don't like affliction that much, so it doesn't matter at all what they do with it.

[FelPlague]

thats why you never use all your demonic cores, always keep one or 2 for movement, and you have soulstrike, so thats atleast 3 globals for movement

and i can see the reason why tyrant isnt instant, people could easily fatfinger it and missuse it

"Never use all your cores, save them for movement." I am sure that idea works amazing in lfr.

[Kaver]

Is there is a huge people who doesnt move a single milimeter from meta (rogue/dh/mage) its their problem. But top tier m+ players knows that locks got enough niche to do +25 +26 keys where huge playerbase cannot reach, and we can see a demonology lock doing world first boralus 26 or the koran destro lock being in top-20 world dps in m+

This doesn’t help the normal Warlock player.

[valky94]

"Never use all your cores, save them for movement." I am sure that idea works amazing in lfr.

cores are capped at 4, which means with proper managment you can use 2 for movement and a soulstrike without caping shards or caping cores

[FelPlague]

cores are capped at 4, which means with proper managment you can use 2 for movement and a soulstrike without caping shards or caping cores

1. i can terll you havent played demo cause
2. you can easily get more then 2 cores at once
3. using 2 cores and 1 soulstrike "just as movement" implies you are either always at 0 shards, or wasting shards...
4. also are you saving soulstrike just for movement?
5. you are using demonbolt for movement and you know... not when you should ACTUALLY use it in your rotation? yeah hows LFR treating you?

[BloodSense]

Saying the class could use a few quality of life improvements is a valid argument, screaming a class or spec is "dead" or "doomed" or completely broken is childish and counter productive to discussion on improvement. Fact is, warlocks always have an continue to have one of the most robust tool kits in the game, period. You want a 1.5 min dCD, fine what other aspect of their survivability do you want to give up, the enormousness health pool? How about the baked in leech across specs? Drain life? Their row of survival talents? The pet with the AoE taunt ability? Demo is a pretty immobile spec, sure. Do what arcane mages and marks hunters do, and play the other spec designed around mobility. Mobility is what you sacrifice for a pet that eats 20% of your damage and outstanding aoe potential. I main destro, I sacrifice AoE for high ST burst windows and on demand cleave damage. Affliction, high mobility at the cost of burst damage. That's the way every class with multiple dps specs works.

Locks also have some of the best utility in the game, especially for a strictly dps class. The most versatile battle res, health stones, demonic gateway, summons and a solo ability second only to hunters and blood DKs. So the real question is what part of their class identity are you willing to give up to get the QoL improvements you're after? Because the chances of getting any major improvements without losing in other areas are slim to none, so lets focus on that discussion instead of the "sky is falling" mentality which permeates the class forums in this community.

[valky94]

1. i can terll you havent played demo cause
2. you can easily get more then 2 cores at once
3. using 2 cores and 1 soulstrike "just as movement" implies you are either always at 0 shards, or wasting shards...
4. also are you saving soulstrike just for movement?
5. you are using demonbolt for movement and you know... not when you should ACTUALLY use it in your rotation? yeah hows LFR treating you?

1. i know
2. it means i know how to manage my shards and me depleting my shards before i know i need to move means i wont overcap with 2 demonfires (and a soul strike if its off cd)
3. no im not lol
4. ofc im using it in my rotation, but knowing when to pool them for when you need to move is something that needs to be known


ive played (and raided) as demo for the majority of my warlocks lifespan, even when it was complete shit (wod, majority of legion)

so dont lecture me on how to play a warlock, not untill you have more mythic bosses killed than me

keep RPing dude

[LordVargK]

You want a 1.5 min dCD, fine what other aspect of their survivability do you want to give up, the enormousness health pool?

Warlocks have the same healthpool as every other class.

How about the baked in leech across specs?

You mean the 8% of our dmg? Yeah, I'd give that up, bake it into the talent.

Drain life?

The thing that got nerfed into oblivion with BfA?

Their row of survival talents?

I mean, every class has those, why should be give them up? But if they are replaced with damage talents, then away with them!

The pet with the AoE taunt ability?

Oh yeah, the pet that can't keep threat, pulls everything and dies tanking more than one mob? Cmon.

Demo is a pretty immobile spec, sure. Do what arcane mages and marks hunters do, and play the other spec designed around mobility. Mobility is what you sacrifice for a pet that eats 20% of your damage and outstanding aoe potential. I main destro, I sacrifice AoE for high ST burst windows and on demand cleave damage. Affliction, high mobility at the cost of burst damage. That's the way every class with multiple dps specs works.

Locks also have some of the best utility in the game, especially for a strictly dps class. The most versatile battle res, health stones, demonic gateway, summons and a solo ability second only to hunters and blood DKs. So the real question is what part of their class identity are you willing to give up to get the QoL improvements you're after? Because the chances of getting any major improvements without losing in other areas are slim to none, so lets focus on that discussion instead of the "sky is falling" mentality which permeates the class forums in this community.

Look, I don't want to answer every of your claims.
But in exchange for some QoL I would take back Life Tap and Mana management. That would add a weakness and some class identity.

[Lulbalance]

Reading feedback from alpha testers keeps more and more scaring over time. Warlock is just like BfA but even worse. No cool or even minimun changes - the specs feel clumsy, weak and hopeless, specially Demonology, probably the worst designed dps of the game: just hard casting all the time.

Alpha builds come and go and we still see no changes in Warlocks. Not a single talent change, no kick for Demonology, no reduction of the 6secs cast time of demons, nothing new to be excited. Im my eyes seems like Blizzard have decided to make the Warlock the clunkiest and borest class of the game. You just see the cool things DH and Mages can do in Torghast and when you see the warlock ones you just wanna cry.

Is the return of Curse of Doom the final Doom of the Warlock class?

Shandalar, resident doomer.

[BloodSense]

Warlocks have the same healthpool as every other class.

You mean the 8% of our dmg? Yeah, I'd give that up, bake it into the talent.

The thing that got nerfed into oblivion with BfA?

I mean, every class has those, why should be give them up? But if they are replaced with damage talents, then away with them!

Oh yeah, the pet that can't keep threat, pulls everything and dies tanking more than one mob? Cmon.


Look, I don't want to answer every of your claims.
But in exchange for some QoL I would take back Life Tap and Mana management. That would add a weakness and some class identity.

Locks have passive 10% additional stam from a train as well as a 10% absorb shield through damage essentially giving them 20% more health than similar DPS. Drain life, for whatever faults it may have is the only health for damage ability I can think of with no cool down and no resource management associated with it. The 8% leech they gain for that shield makes them only 1 of 2 classes to passively generate a shield through dps the other being frost DKS that require a non-meta talent. Hell the only 2 other specs that generate any kind of healing baseline through dps are demon hunters and fury warriors.

Point is, you already have a ton of QoL at your disposal, and sacrifice has always been part of the lock fantasy. You sacrifice dps conventions like interrupts and CC for survivability and group utility. As far back as vanilla you sacrificed pet DPS for any meaningful CC, and all pets were a balancing act depending on what you needed. Shit the class as a whole would buff raid DPS at the cost of their own DPS. Those things you can do without, everyone would be right back here crying about how squishy warlocks feel now. Personally I'm not willing to sacrifice my tankyness, utility or solo capability for a few extra cooldowns and an instant cast or two. Those are the things that have always made it more compelling to me than my mage.

[Guildenstern]

waIt FoR bETA (fiRsT patCh/SECOND paTCh/ThIrd pATcH/LASt PAtcH).

iT's TOo EaRlY to TeLl, stoP PAniCKiNG.

siNCE YoU Can PReDicT fuTUrE, whAt Is tHE nEXT XpAC goInG to Be?

[Saltysquidoon]

Blizzard has literally never failed in alpha/beta/X.0/X.1/X.2/X.3 I have complete faith in blizzard's ability to design all classes and specs.

[valky94]

Warlocks have the same healthpool as every other class.

wrong

Demonic Embrace
Requires Warlock
Requires level 63
Stamina increased by 10%.

thats blizzards compensation for our lack in mobility (they did the same with DKs, by giving dps specs veteran of the third war)

[Malikath]

in mythic+? lol DH destroys everything about warrior in m+. Kidding me?

Their relationship with reality is often questionable.

[Coolthulhu]

Did anyone really bought into Ion's "great unpruning", "taking a step back" propaganda? Ooh, we've got curses back and perhaps some stuff not tied to a single spec. Cool. That doesn't magically make the class interesting to play again, not without this idiotic talent system (even keeping the current system but with actually interesting choices would be something). And those clinging to numbers... that's never been the issue. Or rather, perhaps it has for those obsessed with topping the meters for reasons unfathomable to me unless competing for world firsts. Numbers have never been the problem for those who loved the class for its fantasy (well before the whole official "class fantasy" nonsense was imposed upon us instead of deprived us of most of our unique mechanics) and mained it ever since vanilla, without diching it for FOTM or FOTExpansion reasons.
At least give me hellfire back so I can kill myself in peace.

[LordVargK]

wrong

Demonic Embrace
Requires Warlock
Requires level 63
Stamina increased by 10%.

thats blizzards compensation for our lack in mobility (they did the same with DKs, by giving dps specs veteran of the third war)

Locks have passive 10% additional stam from a train as well as a 10% absorb shield through damage essentially giving them 20% more health than similar DPS. Drain life, for whatever faults it may have is the only health for damage ability I can think of with no cool down and no resource management associated with it. The 8% leech they gain for that shield makes them only 1 of 2 classes to passively generate a shield through dps the other being frost DKS that require a non-meta talent. Hell the only 2 other specs that generate any kind of healing baseline through dps are demon hunters and fury warriors.

Point is, you already have a ton of QoL at your disposal, and sacrifice has always been part of the lock fantasy. You sacrifice dps conventions like interrupts and CC for survivability and group utility. As far back as vanilla you sacrificed pet DPS for any meaningful CC, and all pets were a balancing act depending on what you needed. Shit the class as a whole would buff raid DPS at the cost of their own DPS. Those things you can do without, everyone would be right back here crying about how squishy warlocks feel now. Personally I'm not willing to sacrifice my tankyness, utility or solo capability for a few extra cooldowns and an instant cast or two. Those are the things that have always made it more compelling to me than my mage.

Well, that's what I get for being too lazy to login and check my warlock. Instead I relied on wowheads talent calculator, which also displays your class abilities... Guess not all of them.

But your point about lifedrain is wrong. You can't spam lifedrain, it costs 3000 mana per second (15.000 mp5), you have 5000 mp5, meaning you will run out of mana eventually, which is the same as other classes, like druids, paladins, priests, etc, who can heal in their damage spec, but at the cost of mana.

And yes, I like being tanky. I liked Legion's Affliction, where you didn't really need a healer. And I don't really want to give any of that up.+

But I am willing to manage my mana via lifetap. Lifetap is the sole reason, why warlocks are survivalists in the first place. You needed the heal/shield, because you drained your own life. I am willing to do that again. Coming from Legion our survivalbility was gutted. Drain Soul went from 20% cap to 10%, and the leech rate was lowered. Affliction lost drain life as filler (which is okay imo). Demonic Armor was turned into a PvP talent.

I don't care about whether a dCD has 3min or 1.5min cooldown. I want options. I want the Legion pets back. The Option to sacrifice my pet and not just get a random proc every now and so often. I want the firey water walking mount glyph. Pets, that talk to me. Real options in talent rows. That sort of thing.
The question is always "What do you give up?", let me ask the following: How did we get compensated for the things we lost (absolute and relative)? Why is 2 stack backdraft a talent? Why is Shadowburn a talent? Nightfall, Drain Soul, instant Shadowfury, Haunt, Dark Soul, Demonic Circle (yeah, it's back to baseline in SL), FnB, Doomguard? All turned into Talents or gone over the years. Did you forget how they removed the ember mechanic at the start of BfA? Which spells did we get in return? Sow the seeds was nerfed, Havoc was nerfed, and so on. What did we get in return? Oh, yeah, the Darkglare, which turned Affliction into a single target burst spec.
So, I don't understand the question about what we want to give up. There really isn't anything more to give.

Don't get me wrong. Warlocks are not dead, they are not doomed. But they could use a push in M+, because every warlock spec relies either on ramp up or cooldowns (or both) and besides the felhunter we bring little utility in M+. Is an instant shadowfury on less than a minute CD really too much to ask? Would it break PvP? I doubt it. Is some filler spell for movement situations really too much to ask? Felflame, that just extends out DoTs, for example. Survivalbility is nice and all, but a warlock can not ignore M+ mechanics, because those are designed to be avoided, not tanked.

So, my wish would be the option to choose your talents for the situation you're facing: Raid? Better survivalbility. M+? Something to cast on the move (like felflame).
That's what the talent systems was changed for: Meaningful options. Our current talents are mostly not meaningful options, there's either a clear winner or three talents that do basically the same.