PvP is the sole reason why Gameplay Customization still exists in this game. Wrong?

[Saltysquidoon]

How so?
How does PvP have less permanent customizations than PvE?

Becuause PvP has more variability so you have more reasons to change talents and you have more talents to change (pve talents still work in pvp) and you often change your trinkets as well based on comp.
To use the muti example again; master poisoner is better against comp with healers (so all 3s and most 2s) but elaborate planning has higher throughput (for duel dps comps or wpvp), that's on top of if you want manoeuvrability or mind-numbing poison depending on comp your facing.

That not even counting combat; In pve 99% of the time I would spend cps on envenom, whereas in PvP you often want to use it on kidney

Which is not to say there aren't cookie-cutter specs in pvp, there are just more of them.

"The PvE community evolved into a min maxing machine, to the point of even customization options (talents) evolved into a system to accommodate min maxing.
This makes PvP the only reason to still have Gameplay Customization in the game, at this point"

And my fear was...this min max mentality, if it kept going...it would kill customization in the entire game

That's a silly hypothesis. Cookie-cutter specs have existed since vanilla, people have used guides since vanilla (no matter what ghostcrawler says).

That said. What your cookie-cutter spec should be can change based on; Stat breakpoints, gear breakpoints (rip tier sets),content (raid, m+, pvp) or patch changes.

[Doffen]

How so?
How does PvP have less permanent customizations than PvE?



No no
Im trying to argue:

"The PvE community evolved into a min maxing machine, to the point of even customization options (talents) evolved into a system to accommodate min maxing.
This makes PvP the only reason to still have Gameplay Customization in the game, at this point"

And my fear was...this min max mentality, if it kept going...it would kill customization in the entire game

I used 12 pages to actually understand what you are trying to argue. He is right in that you are arguing two things and those two contradict each other. For the link you got is from 2011 where they say the intention with the new talent trees is to go away from the cutter cookie builds. And seeing minmaxing has been a thing since 2004 I can't understand that your point is that gameplay customization for PvE isn't around anymore. Thats like saying it was never here to begin with. Which could be true, yes, but it hasn't changed much in 16 years, if any at all.

So yes, you are wrong about PvP is the sole reason why we have gameplay customization in this game, which was the original question was it not?

On a personal note. I play two different builds that I like on my main. But not the third option which is the theoretically best one. When I do Arena, you know what I do? I swap talent to counter the enemy team. Minmaxing.

There was never lots of rpg choices for either PvP nor PvE when it comes to talents. It's just as little now as it was with the old talent tree. When it comes to Covenants, I totally agree. Finally some proper RPG in this game. A choice that will make a mark, at least themeatically, and then I include the abilities that will be different.

[Big Thanks]

Becuause PvP has more variability so you have more reasons to change talents and you have more talents to change (pve talents still work in pvp) and you often change your trinkets as well based on comp.
To use the muti example again; master poisoner is better against comp with healers (so all 3s and most 2s) but elaborate planning has higher throughput (for duel dps comps or wpvp), that's on top of if you want manoeuvrability or mind-numbing poison depending on comp your facing.

That not even counting combat; In pve 99% of the time I would spend cps on envenom, whereas in PvP you often want to use it on kidney

Which is not to say there aren't cookie-cutter specs in pvp, there are just more of them.

But im against the gimmick of changing talents before a pull / arena start.
Or better, im against this gimmick being considered "meaningful choice" and the entire talent system being designed around it.

Is it a nice gimmick?........................sure...why not. Variety is one positive

But at least for me, RPG Custumization is more of a permanent choice to a playstyle.
Because you are falling in love with a playstyle as an artform of expression
While with this gimmick...you are jumping around playstyles like a crazy person to optimize

My opinion ofcourse

[Byleth]

What is your idea of meaningful gameplay customisation Shadow?

What would bring back the choice to wow in your eyes?

Do you consider classic talent trees to be more meaningful?

[Big Thanks]

What is your idea of meaningful gameplay customisation Shadow?

What would bring back the choice to wow in your eyes?

Do you consider classic talent trees to be more meaningful?

The ability to express one interests via gameplay...and implement "variety" not by the gimmick of changing talents before a pull to optimize...but implement variety by playing in different ways until you find what you love to play.

Fall in love for one playstyle

Not fall in love for optimization

(i really love Gameplay Customization to the point of sounding like a crazy person, i know)

Do you consider classic talent trees to be more meaningful?

No

[Byleth]

The ability to express one interests via gameplay...and implement "variety" not by the gimmick of changing talents before a pull to optimize...but implement variety by playing in different ways until you find what you love to play.

Fall in love for one playstyle

Not fall in love for optimization

(i really love Gameplay Customization to the point of sounding like a crazy person, i know)

You didn't answer two of my questions.

I need to know your answers so I can make up my mind whether to engage in this topic or not.

[Darkeon]

Imagine playing WoW for it's PvP.

[Big Thanks]

You didn't answer two of my questions.

I need to know your answers so I can make up my mind whether to engage in this topic or not.

I dont know "whats the solution".
But no, Vanilla didnt offer more variety

[Nzx]

Fall in love for one playstyle

Okay but the playstyle I "fell in love with" is playing the best possible combination of choices for whatever content it is that I'm playing at this specific point in time and therefore my gameplay customization is constant and never-ending. Your idea would take that away from me and ensure that my gameplay was never customizable at all because I'd be locked in to all these "meaningful choices" everyone is currently obsessed with and therefore when my particular "meaningful choices" became shit due to the constant nerf/buff cycle required of any MMO or because of new encounters that are released every single patch, I'd be screwed, my character would suck, and I'd have to start again or quit. Guess which one of those options 90% of people would take, given that most people have upwards of a thousand hours played on their main characters (and often many times more than that)?

[exochaft]

There was never lots of rpg choices for either PvP nor PvE when it comes to talents. It's just as little now as it was with the old talent tree. When it comes to Covenants, I totally agree. Finally some proper RPG in this game. A choice that will make a mark, at least themeatically, and then I include the abilities that will be different.

I'm happy with more permanent decisions, especially if there's a way to separate people who play the same class/spec. Currently in BfA, not only are many builds homogenized across the specs, a lot of RNG is involved to the point where 'playing your character well' doesn't have as much impact on the results of your gameplay as it should. I will say that corruptions, despite all their flaws, actually have given rise to some level of character distinction... it's just random what you get. For example, as a Moonkin, I have tons of mastery proc gear, which allows me to play with proc windows to min/max my damage through proper game play. However, other moonkins in my group may have static stat corruptions or mindflays/IS/etc where everything is fire-and-forget. However, that gives rise to the issue with covenants...

While covenants will give rise to character distinction, the problem everyone is worried about is if there will always be a "right" answer when choosing a covenant. What is considered "right" in this regard? Well, it completely depends on the content and how things are balanced in the end.

To keep the conversation brief, I will say with how content is typically balanced as well as class/spec/ability balance, there will be issues with the current alpha iteration (obviously it's early stages, but the point remains). Simply stated, Blizz tends to tune the content to a high enough level where min/maxing actually matters... heck, they even admit so when it comes to mythic raids and how they specifically tune them. How does that make min/maxing matter? The skill/power metrics required to clear the content are at a high level where even the best of the best have to min/max to some degree. Extrapolate this to the rest of the player base, and the need to min/max becomes more necessary as the skill gap widens.

This leads into my point: if you're tuning content to the top players or to a high enough level where even skilled players need to min/max, you're always going to run into this issue of "right" answers when it comes to builds/talents/classes/specs/abilities/gear/etc. When you start having outliers in such an environment, then meta comps/builds become the norm. Granted, you'll never be rid of such a mentality, but current game design actually fosters the mentality instead of combating/discouraging/trivializing it.

So what is the answer? There's several different routes, all with different results and consequences. If we take covenant abilities as an example, you either need to make all of them OP or make all of them trivial if you keep content balanced the same way... anywhere in between, where 1-2 abilities for your class/spec are amazing and the rest are niche/awful, you're not going to have a happy player base. I think players would be more inclined that all of the abilities feel powerful and useful in many scenarios, while maintaining that there is not one ability that rules them all by dominating every scenario. While I'm using covenant abilities as an example, I feel classes/specs as a whole could be taken to this level as well. However, the relative power of classes/specs to the content is what's really holding things back in this regard... and I feel Blizz focuses way too much on the class/spec balance versus the tuning/design of the content itself.

Too often we go into alpha/beta/PTR testing and easily see how Blizz is designing content/systems to where it always heavily favors one "right" answer, but instead of addressing the issues of content/systems they try to shoe-horn class/spec balance around the content/systems. The end result is that the player has much less choice in terms of flavor and customization as they are balanced around a "right" answer dictated by the content/systems at play.

[Big Thanks]

Okay but the playstyle I "fell in love with" is playing the best possible combination of choices for whatever content it is that I'm playing at this specific point in time and therefore my gameplay customization is constant and never-ending. Your idea would take that away from me and ensure that my gameplay was never customizable at all because I'd be locked in to all these "meaningful choices" everyone is currently obsessed with and therefore when my particular "meaningful choices" became shit due to the constant nerf/buff cycle required of any MMO or because of new encounters that are released every single patch, I'd be screwed, my character would suck, and I'd have to start again or quit. Guess which one of those options 90% of people would take, given that most people have upwards of a thousand hours played on their main characters (and often many times more than that)?

IMO the "switching gimmick" is nothing but an illusion of player agency
The only player agency you are having is clicking the button to change talents before every pull.

Yes, the "switching gimmick" creates more variety...but when done ad-nauseam...this is no different than buying ammo as a hunter in vanilla
But you are right....PvE'ers would probably feel bored...even if is all done ad-nauseam it brings variety

Edit: im going to sleep now. im almost passed out on the pc

[Seranthor]

IMO the "switching gimmick" is nothing but an illusion of player agency
The only player agency you are having is clicking the button to change talents before every pull.

Yes, the "switching gimmick" creates more variety...but when done ad-nauseam...this is no different than buying ammo as a hunter in vanilla
But you are right....PvE'ers would probably feel bored...even if is all done ad-nauseam it brings variety

Edit: im going to sleep now. im almost passed out on the pc

An 'illusion'... if its an 'illusion' what would you ACTUALLY consider real Player Agency?

[ClassicPeon]

An 'illusion'... if its an 'illusion' what would you ACTUALLY consider real Player Agency?

I'm not sure he actually knows what he is arguing tbh. It seems like he started the thread without having actually thought this concept through.

I'm also not sure what the point of it was, whats he trying to get out of it.

I for one am glad that talent trees exist for pve. Especially in mythic plus where some dungeons literally make me take specific talents or some weekly affixes does the same. I'm not sure how thats an illusion.

[docterfreeze]

What would bring back the choice to wow in your eyes?

I know this post was aimed at OP but I want to answer it anyways.

Ideally the current talent system should contain very few throughput increases. Talents that give CC, sustain, defensives, and mobility cannot be simmed. Classes should feel complete regardless of talents.

Second, many customization options that existed in the past should return. I firmly believe that pre-MoP style talent trees can exist alongside the current talent system. This tree should be all about minor stat increases and distributing power to your kit however you wish. Nothing that massively changes your gameplay, just some fine-tuning. You'll probably have cookie cutter on this tree but the difference between the best simming choice and the worst should not be big. Major glyphs should return, offering no straight up throughput increases but still being very useful. Gem slots, unique meta gem effects, reforging, and impactful professions should also return for further fine-tuning.

[ClassicPeon]

I know this post was aimed at OP but I want to answer it anyways.

Ideally the current talent system should contain very few throughput increases. Talents that give CC, sustain, defensives, and mobility cannot be simmed. Classes should feel complete regardless of talents.

Second, many customization options that existed in the past should return. I firmly believe that pre-MoP style talent trees can exist alongside the current talent system. This tree should be all about minor stat increases and distributing power to your kit however you wish. Nothing that massively changes your gameplay, just some fine-tuning. You'll probably have cookie cutter on this tree but the difference between the best simming choice and the worst should not be big. Major glyphs should return, offering no straight up throughput increases but still being very useful. Gem slots, unique meta gem effects, reforging, and impactful professions should also return for further fine-tuning.

I disagree with your first point.

I think throughput abilities and throughput passives in the same row makes blizzard able to make specs more complicated yet still accessable to people who just arent into tryharding with stuff like that.

Thats not how it is at the moment, with most specs for some fucked up reason being 3 button specs, but that the original intent and i like that. More complexity played right should then give higher throughput.

That and choosing between burst, single target, aoe, cleave and stuff like that before entering a m+ actually has some interesting implications imo.

[docterfreeze]

I disagree with your first point.

I think throughput abilities and throughput passives in the same row makes blizzard able to make specs more complicated yet still accessable to people who just arent into tryharding with stuff like that.

Thats not how it is at the moment, with most specs for some fucked up reason being 3 button specs, but that the original intent and i like that. More complexity played right should then give higher throughput.

That and choosing between burst, single target, aoe, cleave and stuff like that before entering a m+ actually has some interesting implications imo.

I like throughput rows if they're all AoE, all ST, or all multipurpose and tuned properly. It can be burst vs sustained vs RNG. This way it's generally a playstyle choice instead of having an obvious pick for each content type or encounter. Having less throughput talent rows lets them be more creative with the few that remain.

[arkanon]

I'm not sure he actually knows what he is arguing tbh. It seems like he started the thread without having actually thought this concept through.

I'm also not sure what the point of it was, whats he trying to get out of it.

I for one am glad that talent trees exist for pve. Especially in mythic plus where some dungeons literally make me take specific talents or some weekly affixes does the same. I'm not sure how thats an illusion.

You get used to it - She uses this forum as her personal blog - honestly, just click her name and check out "threads they started" and look at the titles. She really just wants to push a narrative and just disagrees with everyone for a while then gives up and starts the same thread again.

if you want to know just how disingenuous she is, she has claimed multiple times in this thread that retail has no meaningful pve customization, because all you do is pick the best talent/spec/essences/traits for any given situation - and myself and others have pointed out that is the literal definition of customization.

customization
/kʌstəmʌɪˈzeɪʃ(ə)n/
Learn to pronounce
noun
noun: customisation

the action of modifying something to suit a particular individual or task.
"the new software allows customization"
a modification made to something to suit a particular individual or task.

She is yet to respond to this point, and instead shifts the goalposts over and over again - and THAT is why her threads always devolve in the same way - she just keeps shifting and changing her argument as it continually gets dismantled, until eventually giving up, moving to a different sub forum, and creating EXACTLY the same thread, with a different clickbait title, but by half way down page one its the exact same thing.

- - - Updated - - -

I like throughput rows if they're all AoE, all ST, or all multipurpose and tuned properly. It can be burst vs sustained vs RNG. This way it's generally a playstyle choice instead of having an obvious pick for each content type or encounter.

But if a fight requires sustained aoe, your burst build will be inferior....

[docterfreeze]

But if a fight requires sustained aoe, your burst build will be inferior....

Then the encounter designers fucked up

[Motso]

Everything i said is blizzards opinion. not mine

see for yourself here. blue posts on the foundations of the talent system we have today

https://pt.wowhead.com/news=198422/d...e-talent-trees

Been following this nonsense for a day and a half. Until now have managed to not say anything, but straight up fuck off with this one.
On multiple occasions you have called out and taunted people for 'not having an opinion' goading people into giving their opinion on whatever it is you think you are trying to say.
And now, after a day an a half of this baiting babbling nonsense, when it appears people either aren't getting or aren't agreeing with your point (yet to see one outside of "I don't like that we can change talents on a per fight basis") you suddenly play the "Ohoho it's not MY opinion" card. Ram that right up your poop chute.

[arkanon]

Then the encounter designers fucked up

wait wait wait, you are pro customization, but want all the customization to be meaningless? wtf is this? You just 100% contradicted yourself.