Resilience will fix it.

[Recovery]

It was hyperbole from the start to say PvP gear would cause you to struggle in world quests. The gear should be as it always was, BiS in PvP and entry-level for PvE. If you want to PvE you'd follow their progression system of WQ->dungeons->raid/m+ and if you want to PvP you'd go from casual to rated. Everyone is happy.

exactly.. and theres no reason you cant do both as well.. There is literally no reason that you cant have full pvp and pve set because its all gated... Youre gated behind pvp currency on obtaining your best pvp gear.. and youre gated behind raid bosses or whatever on getting your best pve gear..

I literally used to complete whatever difficulty of raid i was doing on tuesday / wednesday and then get my pvp cap on wed and thurs.. then gank noobs in org until tuesday. lol

- - - Updated - - -

That only worked cause raiders had spare time after clearing one raid mode while pvp was constant. If you add pvp gear now you just ignore pve player struggles being forced to play pvp for gear.

ummmm...... what. You think you could just endlessly grind pvp gear? lmao. You couldnt.. it was gated behind currency and you could only obtain so much currency during a week.. Typically 1 week of currency = 1 piece like gloves belt bracer cloak and 2 weeks currencty to get chest legs weapon helm etc.. Also why would you farm pvp gear for pve if you know youre gonna be gimped doing it.. i literally have no ideaw hat point youre trying to make here.

[docterfreeze]

That only worked cause raiders had spare time after clearing one raid mode while pvp was constant. If you add pvp gear now you just ignore pve player struggles being forced to play pvp for gear.

M+ exists now, offering a constant stream of gear. Honor gear should not be better than m+ gear in PvE. Conquest had a weekly cap.

[Morssoe]

ummmm...... what. You think you could just endlessly grind pvp gear? lmao. You couldnt.. it was gated behind currency and you could only obtain so much currency during a week.. Typically 1 week of currency = 1 piece like gloves belt bracer cloak and 2 weeks currencty to get chest legs weapon helm etc

Actually I was just comparing playstyles pve and pvp in like tbc. Pvp always had reason to push rating but raiders were done after clearing a raid. But now there are thousand sources to get gear after raiding so you don't want to add pvp gear to that list that has potential to be good in pve content while dedicated pvp players would only ever do pvp. Its current situation reversed.

[Recovery]

M+ exists now, offering a constant stream of gear. Honor gear should not be better than m+ gear in PvE. Conquest had a weekly cap.

exactly this.

honor gear = heroic dungeon gear
Arena point gear = mythic plus gear
Tier 2 arena gear = raid gear

As far as ilvl.. IF you put resil back on pvp gear, then none of the pvp gear would be as good as pve gear FOR pve and vice versa NONE of the pve gear would be as good FOR pvp.

- - - Updated - - -

Actually I was just comparing playstyles pve and pvp in like tbc. Pvp always had reason to push rating but raiders were done after clearing a raid. But now there are thousand sources to get gear after raiding so you don't want to add pvp gear to that list that has potential to be good in pve content while dedicated pvp players would only ever do pvp. Its current situation reversed.

you also have mythic plus now.. IF they would actually make it competitive instead of being loot lottery.. and offer rewards that matter.. Then you could go do mythic plus after youve concluded your raid lockout. IF you put resil back on pvp gear, it has NO potential to be good in pve. lol

Put resil back on pvp gear. And make PVE Item effects not work in arena. VERY SIMPLE.. everybody happy.

[dcc626]

Can we please put resilience back on gear so that im not forced to do pve if i dont want to. I dont care for mythic+. I dont care for raiding. I just want to pvp and i dont want to be at a disadvantage in my preferred area of the game just because i dont want to participate in the part of the game that i detest.

GRRRR

too bad there wasnt a system that, i dont know, gave your toon a template so you could pvp, win because of skill and not need to worry about gearing. im sure people would be all for that....

[Morssoe]

It would work somehow if resilience came back and they removed versa.

I don't think its a huge problem for pve players if you miss some minor upgrade from entry gear with skipping pvp. I agree bfa model is current so bad that its mandatory to get those bis items which obviously is totally different than minor upgrades.

[Recovery]

It would work somehow if resilience came back and they removed versa.

I don't think its a huge problem for pve players if you miss some minor upgrade from entry gear with skipping pvp. I agree bfa model is current so bad that its mandatory to get those bis items which obviously is totally different than minor upgrades.

i dont understand why you think youd be missing ANYTHING AT ALL if you didnt get pvp gear. All pvp gear would be equal ilvl to the same content in pve. The only difference would be that pvp gear has resil on it and pve gear doesnt.. Meaning that youre WAY less effective in pvp with pve gear on and youre way less effective in pve with pvp gear on.

Also, i thought it would be given and just understood that if resil were to come back, versi would be gone. lol. Considering that Versi is just thered headed step kid of resil that works in both pvp and pve.

Its literally this simple. Pve player does heroic dungeon > gets 100 ilvl helm. Pvp player does battle grounds to get honor > buys 100 ivl helm.

Pve helm pvp helm
100 stam 100 stam
100 int 100 int
50 haste 50 haste
50 crit 50 resilience

Both are same progression wise, but neither are OPTIMAL for use in the other.

[Akibaboy]

Oh is that true? World pvp wasnt a huge thing in classic? Battlegrounds weren't in the game at classic? WITH SEPARATE PVP GEAR? Arena was added in BC with separate pvp gear with resilence on it. Me playing pvp with exclusive gear for pvp doesnt affect your pve at all. You dont have to pvp if you dont want to. I have to pve even though i dont want to. That pve content that i have to do for gear (Mythic+)... Crazy.. im pretty sure that was a bonus feature added to the game after the fact to extend play time.. WEIRD

Yep! So in Classic, playing all the game's content got you advantages that would spill into every area. People with AQ/Naxx gear would obliterate those in the best "PvP" gear, which was just slightly survivability retooled MC/BWL level gear in terms of stat budget. Then in TBC they made Resilience gear meaning that no matter what you did in the game, if you wanted to dip your toes and try out PvP, prepared to get slam dunked until you mindlessly grinded and AFK farmed an entirely different set for no reason. The designers went on in interviews to say that this, and arenas, were a huge mistake because it created this divide of a completely separate members only club where 10% the playerbase actually engaged PvP as it was intended, and the other 90% AFKed for "welfare epics" that they didn't realize had garbage stat budgets despite being purple. The casual player who'd want to experience all the game had to offer would dip their toes into PvP, get annihilated by Resilience man, not know why they were terrible, and then never engage in the feature again.

With your example of being "forced" to do Mythics, I think that's a bit of a stretch seeing as how one of the fastest ways to get gear on hitting max level on a new character is to slam PvP. If it's easier for you to get great gear from M+ than PvP, that means you're not really pushing your rating. A couple months ago I got a brand new 120 to ilvl 450 a few hours after just from getting in a RBGs group and knocking out War Mode quests. I've felt a little "forced" to do PvP for certain characters since the path to good items is fast, and basically guaranteed as opposed to PvE's waiting for drops and shit.

That said, I can't agree with the idea of going back to the segregated game of two completely incompatible progression paths.

That is retarded, no one should be forced to do content that they don't want in order to do the content that they want, if the guy wants to do pvp why should he be forced to pve? From what we have seen of Shadowlands Blizzards clearly agrees with this and is trying to not force people to play.

Your thought process is the reason why Wow is dying to other mmo's that don't "force" people to sink as much time as possible, if you really look at it, you are paying so that you can do things that you don't like in hopes to have a bit of time to do the things that you like. The whole genre is dying because of this.

Resilience might be a way, but I don't think they will do it, its probably even not necessary.

And Resilience is the topic of the thread. There shouldn't be a magic stat that segregates the game into two different versions. If your character becomes powerful, they should carry that power to each facet of the game they engage in. Shadowlands is giving PvPers more options on how to get geared up... great! I never said that PvPers shouldn't have gear. I said that WoW is a PvE game that allows you to PvP... so let PvE players go PvP, not create an arbitrary barrier of entry to keep them from being successful until they pay their dues to the PvP gods over hours of punishment.

Also, the only MMO that's anywhere close to competing with WoW is one of the biggest examples of an endless time-sink focused game there can be.

[wraysbury]

I would like it if the pve heroes who don't actually care about pvp would kindly fuck off pvp discussions. Go have a fascinating debate elsewhere about the ins and outs of efficiently hitting a giant damage sponge for 20 minutes or something.

PvE progression is not compatible with PvP. There are lots of people who like pvp but absolutely don't like pve and don't want to do pve. A lot of them are no longer playing the game because of that. Any argument based on the fact that only a minority of these people still play wow is falling for the survivorship bias fallacy.

The reason PvE progression is not compatible with pvp is simple: PvE progression requires significant power creep. And it works because in PvE one side of the fight is an artificial construct designed to lose the fight so it can always be scaled to match people's gear.

PvEers have the luxury to be as casual or as hardcore as they want to be, because whatever their gear level they can run instances designed for the appropriate difficulty level.

There is no reason that PvPer can't enjoy the same freedom of finding PvP content at almost any level that they want. However, when it comes to random battlegrounds, it is not possible to prevent people with oversized PvE gear designed for higher pve difficulties to join. And matchmaking even "just" 30 players to be in the same ilevel range is just not realistically feasible.

There is nothing fun or interesting about either winning or losing only because of whatever numbers you are wearing. If you think that trivially killing things that can't really fight back is fun, then you already have PvE giving you this experience. No need to make PvP the same.

Furthermore, PvE likes to provides absurdly overpowered on use effects or procs. This is fine in pve because your experience isn't diminished by someone else having a cool proc or trinket. In PvP, this is a disaster. Over tuned abilities that can delete one quarter of someone's health without requiring any setup have no place in pvp.

This is why pvp gear needs to be separate from PvE. PvP gear should be mediocre in PvE, and PvE gear should be mediocre in PvP. If you like both, then it should be no problem for you to participate in both kind of activities to gear up for both.

Ultimately, any argument that high end PvE gear being OP in PvP is fine is from PvE heroes who want to faceroll people in pvp without actually putting in the work of figuring out how to effectively play in PvP.

PvP is about playing right during the actual fight, not about having the biggest numbers. If you want to win due to having the biggest numbers, then that's what PvE is for. You don't need every part of the game to pat you in the back for having big numbers.

[Recovery]

Yep! So in Classic, playing all the game's content got you advantages that would spill into every area. People with AQ/Naxx gear would obliterate those in the best "PvP" gear, which was just slightly survivability retooled MC/BWL level gear in terms of stat budget. Then in TBC they made Resilience gear meaning that no matter what you did in the game, if you wanted to dip your toes and try out PvP, prepared to get slam dunked until you mindlessly grinded and AFK farmed an entirely different set for no reason. The designers went on in interviews to say that this, and arenas, were a huge mistake because it created this divide of a completely separate members only club where 10% the playerbase actually engaged PvP as it was intended, and the other 90% AFKed for "welfare epics" that they didn't realize had garbage stat budgets despite being purple. The casual player who'd want to experience all the game had to offer would dip their toes into PvP, get annihilated by Resilience man, not know why they were terrible, and then never engage in the feature again.

With your example of being "forced" to do Mythics, I think that's a bit of a stretch seeing as how one of the fastest ways to get gear on hitting max level on a new character is to slam PvP. If it's easier for you to get great gear from M+ than PvP, that means you're not really pushing your rating. A couple months ago I got a brand new 120 to ilvl 450 a few hours after just from getting in a RBGs group and knocking out War Mode quests. I've felt a little "forced" to do PvP for certain characters since the path to good items is fast, and basically guaranteed as opposed to PvE's waiting for drops and shit.

That said, I can't agree with the idea of going back to the segregated game of two completely incompatible progression paths.

And Resilience is the topic of the thread. There shouldn't be a magic stat that segregates the game into two different versions. If your character becomes powerful, they should carry that power to each facet of the game they engage in. Shadowlands is giving PvPers more options on how to get geared up... great! I never said that PvPers shouldn't have gear. I said that WoW is a PvE game that allows you to PvP... so let PvE players go PvP, not create an arbitrary barrier of entry to keep them from being successful until they pay their dues to the PvP gods over hours of punishment.

Also, the only MMO that's anywhere close to competing with WoW is one of the biggest examples of an endless time-sink focused game there can be.

Id love to know how you gear faster in PVP than you do in pve. lol. Youre literally gated behind a cap that give ilvl 430 gear for 10 weeks. Then, when you get passed that 10 weeks, it goes up to 460. You have an EXTREMELY RNG chance to get a piece after a match win, but thats VERY rare. Then you have a cache each week that drops gear which ilvl is based upon your rating.

In pve you can do all mythic 0, SPAM KEYS, do each difficulty of the raid, World quest, weekly event for normal and heroic NYA cache, you get a cache every week depending on highest key completed... Etc.. If you think its faster to gear in pvp... Youre doing it COMPLETELY wrong..

Also, your analogy is moot. You expect to go into pvp with dungeon gear on and do well against people who have put in the time to get pvp gear? Why? Why should you be afforded that luxury? Not to mention that BC was a time in the game when gear in arena mattered THE LEAST. Im sure you blamed your misfortune on gear.. but it likely wasnt gear , bub. would you go into mythic raid with quest gear on and expect to perform at the same level as the mythic raiders? Get outta here bob.

Also, if you step into arena today, with 450 ilvl.. youre gonna get absolutely POOPED on by every team because they have all of thes ridiculous items from raid and mythic plus.. Guidance device, drestagath trinket, Maut claw trinket, Raden 1 h weapon procs. etc.
Assuming you actually get to rating of any significance...

Youre talking out of your rear, kid. Its evident that youre arguing based off things that you think you know, but clearly dont.

[cuafpr]

There should be a PVP path to match M+ and raid level gear... not sure what it would be, but I don't pvp enough to even have an idea on it to be honest. Then again i also think solo players should be able have a progression path to match group content gear /shrugg.

[Nerovar]

It's not rocket science. PvP power progression should be separate from PvE power progression. This way it's easier to balance and it allows both PvE and PvP players to play the way they want to without forcing either of them to play content they dislike. Combining PvE and PvP progession into one thing just creates completely unnecessary problems for the devs. What rating is equivalent to LFR/normal/hc/mythic in terms of difficulty? Can you even compare them and if not, why should they reward the same loot?

The easiest way to achieve good progression seems to be a combination of item level scaling and PvP centric set bonuses.

[Recovery]

It's not rocket science. PvP power progression should be separate from PvE power progression. This way it's easier to balance and it allows both PvE and PvP players to play the way they want to without forcing either of them to play content they dislike. Combining PvE and PvP progession into one thing just creates completely unnecessary problems for the devs. What rating is equivalent to LFR/normal/hc/mythic in terms of difficulty? Can you even compare them and if not, why should they reward the same loot?

The easiest way to achieve good progression seems to be a combination of item level scaling and PvP centric set bonuses.

literally.. Resilience on pvp gear and set bonuses that are pvp esque. Priest 2 pc bonus, Psychic scream no longer breaks on damage.

Basically useless to pve. Great for pvp.

[docterfreeze]

Id love to know how you gear faster in PVP than you do in pve. lol. Youre literally gated behind a cap that give ilvl 430 gear for 10 weeks. Then, when you get passed that 10 weeks, it goes up to 460. You have an EXTREMELY RNG chance to get a piece after a match win, but thats VERY rare. Then you have a cache each week that drops gear which ilvl is based upon your rating.

In pve you can do all mythic 0, SPAM KEYS, do each difficulty of the raid, World quest, weekly event for normal and heroic NYA cache, you get a cache every week depending on highest key completed... Etc.. If you think its faster to gear in pvp... Youre doing it COMPLETELY wrong..

Also, your analogy is moot. You expect to go into pvp with dungeon gear on and do well against people who have put in the time to get pvp gear? Why? Why should you be afforded that luxury? would you go into mythic raid with quest gear on and expect to perform at the same level as the mythic raiders? Get outta here bob.

Not to mention how much better certain PvE gear has been throughout BfA. Tank trinket meta from 8.0-8.2, voodoo totem, bike, drest, and obsidian claw in 8.3, gettiku, visions guarantee corruptions, azerite traits, essences, etc. PvE players think this is fine but it depresses PvP players.

[Schattenlied]

And pvp gear should just have pvp power no other stats cause pve players don't want you to come pve with same gear. GL doing some world quests when questing gear is better than your pvp set.

That's... No, not how that works.

The thing that makes Resilience good, is it makes PvP gear best in PvP, and PvE gear best in PvE, while still allowing them to serve is decent entry level gear for the other.

I like that about it.

PvE gear still works in PvP, it's just not as strong as PvP gear, but still provides a good starting point to jump into random BGs to start gathering a PvP set, just like PvP gear with Resilience taking up some of it's stat budget still works in PvE, it's just isn't as strong as dedicated PvE gear of a similar Ilvl, but still provides a good starting point to jump into current teir normal raids or low rank M+ keys to put together a PvE gear set.

They are separate, but still give you a leg up when trying to cross over to the other side.

[Akibaboy]

Id love to know how you gear faster in PVP than you do in pve. lol. Youre literally gated behind a cap that give ilvl 430 gear for 10 weeks.

*Opens up interface on character who did one Conquest reward.* Oh look, there's a 445 as my next reward. *Opens up cache* Nice, a 460. Hmmm... not sure what this guy is talking about.

In pve you can do all mythic 0, SPAM KEYS, do each difficulty of the raid, World quest, weekly event for normal and heroic NYA cache, you get a cache every week depending on highest key completed... Etc.. If you think its faster to gear in pvp... Youre doing it COMPLETELY wrong..

Well, I healed RBGs for a day or so for my friends and got to 450. Not sure what to tell you. That's the fastest I geared someone while doing the least amount of content.

Not to mention that BC was a time in the game when gear in arena mattered THE LEAST.
• Im sure you blamed your misfortune on gear.. but it likely wasnt gear , bub.
• would you go into mythic raid with quest gear on and expect to perform at the same level as the mythic raiders? Get outta here bob.

"Gear actually didn't matter in TBC:
• Your gear wasn't why you sucked
• For example, I'll outline a situation where gear is exactly why someone would suck"
I PvPd quite successfully in TBC thank you very much. When I'd want to switch to a different class, it was absolutely mandatory that I farm res gear first. I know it goes hand in hand with your talking down to me narrative, but I'm making the case based not just on my personal experience, but on the words of the developers and the state of the game from the resilience era as a whole.

Also, you seem to think I'm making the case that gear shouldn't matter. I'm not. I'm saying that there shouldn't be an arbitrary divide between two pieces of the game that reset the treadmill based on what part of it you play. Resilience is 100% that. Good gear should be good gear everywhere, and bad gear should be bad gear everywhere. Let loot be loot as they say.

Also, if you step into arena today, with 450 ilvl.. youre gonna get absolutely POOPED on by every team because they have all of thes ridiculous items from raid and mythic plus.. Guidance device, drestagath trinket, Maut claw trinket, Raden 1 h weapon procs. etc.
Assuming you actually get to rating of any significance...

Again, we're changing the purpose of what I said to fit your narrative. I'll say this... that sounds like a pretty cool RPG game where the people willing to put in the most effort have the strongest results. This has been the case for basically the life of the entire game that some weird weapons and trinkets would smash in PvP. That's pretty cool. They should make some wacky PvP items and powers that are kinda good for PvE too... Oh wait! They already do that. That may inspire me to do an activity I normally wouldn't do, but I certainly wouldn't consider myself "forced" to do it.

[wraysbury]

No. You're playing a bonus feature of the game that was added in after the fact to extend play time. WoW is a PvE game that allows you to PvP.

Tell you what, you don't treat us with your poorly informed opinions about pvp and we won't go tell you about how pve should work on the pve forums. Deal?

[docterfreeze]

*Opens up interface on character who did one Conquest reward.* Oh look, there's a 445 as my next reward. *Opens up cache* Nice, a 460. Hmmm... not sure what this guy is talking about.

Well, I healed RBGs for a day or so for my friends and got to 450. Not sure what to tell you. That's the fastest I geared someone while doing the least amount of content.

"Gear actually didn't matter in TBC:
• Your gear wasn't why you sucked
• For example, I'll outline a situation where gear is exactly why someone would suck"
I PvPd quite successfully in TBC thank you very much. When I'd want to switch to a different class, it was absolutely mandatory that I farm res gear first. I know it goes hand in hand with your talking down to me narrative, but I'm making the case based not just on my personal experience, but on the words of the developers and the state of the game from the resilience era as a whole.

Also, you seem to think I'm making the case that gear shouldn't matter. I'm not. I'm saying that there shouldn't be an arbitrary divide between two pieces of the game that reset the treadmill based on what part of it you play. Resilience is 100% that. Good gear should be good gear everywhere, and bad gear should be bad gear everywhere. Let loot be loot as they say.

Again, we're changing the purpose of what I said to fit your narrative. I'll say this... that sounds like a pretty cool RPG game where the people willing to put in the most effort have the strongest results. This has been the case for basically the life of the entire game that some weird weapons and trinkets would smash in PvP. That's pretty cool. They should make some wacky PvP items and powers that are kinda good for PvE too... Oh wait! They already do that. That may inspire me to do an activity I normally wouldn't do, but I certainly wouldn't consider myself "forced" to do it.

The PvP gear you're referring to is catchup gear, which is neither BiS nor competitive. Both PvE and PvP are about equal in the time it takes to get catchup gear ONLY IF you consider ilvl as the only thing that matters. If you're more realistic and take into account corruptions, trinkets, azerite, weapons, and essences, it becomes obvious that getting to a decent ilvl is only around 1/3rd of the problem. The point of resilience (or any PvP stat) is to make the gear BiS in PvP.

You're guaranteed a 475 ilvl piece in your cache for completing a single 15 regardless of the time it takes. To get equivalent ilvl in your cache in PvP, you have to be 2400 and cap your conquest. Think about that for a moment. Think about the difference in difficulty. This is not equal.

Maybe for one or two specs in the game their BiS trinket comes from PvP, but for EVERY CLASS in PvP their BiS trinkets come from PvE. For many classes either gettiku or ra-den weapon is also BiS and only available via PvE. Again this is not equal. Until it is, a PvP stat is a great solution to make PvP gear matter.

[Amariw]

Can we please put resilience back on gear so that im not forced to do pve if i dont want to. I dont care for mythic+. I dont care for raiding. I just want to pvp and i dont want to be at a disadvantage in my preferred area of the game just because i dont want to participate in the part of the game that i detest.

GRRRR

Wholeheartedly yes. It's been one expansion too long.

- - - Updated - - -

*Opens up interface on character who did one Conquest reward.* Oh look, there's a 445 as my next reward. *Opens up cache* Nice, a 460. Hmmm... not sure what this guy is talking about.

Well, I healed RBGs for a day or so for my friends and got to 450. Not sure what to tell you. That's the fastest I geared someone while doing the least amount of content.

"Gear actually didn't matter in TBC:
• Your gear wasn't why you sucked
• For example, I'll outline a situation where gear is exactly why someone would suck"
I PvPd quite successfully in TBC thank you very much. When I'd want to switch to a different class, it was absolutely mandatory that I farm res gear first. I know it goes hand in hand with your talking down to me narrative, but I'm making the case based not just on my personal experience, but on the words of the developers and the state of the game from the resilience era as a whole.

Also, you seem to think I'm making the case that gear shouldn't matter. I'm not. I'm saying that there shouldn't be an arbitrary divide between two pieces of the game that reset the treadmill based on what part of it you play. Resilience is 100% that. Good gear should be good gear everywhere, and bad gear should be bad gear everywhere. Let loot be loot as they say.

Again, we're changing the purpose of what I said to fit your narrative. I'll say this... that sounds like a pretty cool RPG game where the people willing to put in the most effort have the strongest results. This has been the case for basically the life of the entire game that some weird weapons and trinkets would smash in PvP. That's pretty cool. They should make some wacky PvP items and powers that are kinda good for PvE too... Oh wait! They already do that. That may inspire me to do an activity I normally wouldn't do, but I certainly wouldn't consider myself "forced" to do it.

The idea is that good pvp gear is still good in pve, and good pve gear is still good in pvp, only not as much, with pvp being the clear winner for pvp and vice versa if you put time into it. Today the best way to get gear for anything is just farm m+ and raids.

[kenn9530]

Oh is that true? World pvp wasnt a huge thing in classic? Battlegrounds weren't in the game at classic? WITH SEPARATE PVP GEAR? Arena was added in BC with separate pvp gear with resilence on it. Me playing pvp with exclusive gear for pvp doesnt affect your pve at all. You dont have to pvp if you dont want to. I have to pve even though i dont want to. That pve content that i have to do for gear (Mythic+)... Crazy.. im pretty sure that was a bonus feature added to the game after the fact to extend play time.. WEIRD

Your not forced to do anything but there are PvP rewards for the neck that are essential for some classes, without resiliance everything is more fair and you can choose what content you want to do, only problem is corrupted items mess the balance even more.