What's the most EVIL or heinous thing the Alliance has legally done?

[Newname1234567890]

Once again, the real issue with Theramore is not its destruction but the torture of all its civilians, sponsored by the Warchief of the Horde himself

Torture? Didnt they just bomb?

[Feanoro]

Everybody knows the Horde has done bad things. It's constantly shoved down our throats to be the objectively evil faction over and over. This thread is about bad things the Alliance has done.

That reminder wouldn't be needed if not for the attempts to derail it with Horde memes and talking points about Alliance being just as bad.

[qwerty123456]

No. Trolls absolutely did NOT evolve from another race. Them and the aqir are the two oldest races on Azeroth that came into being naturally rather than evolving from Titan construct races like the Earthen. The forest trolls belonged to the Amani Empire, one of the handful of empires of trolls that lived on Azeroth. They are native northern Lordaeron and were absolutely there long before quel'dorei even existed. Then the quel'dorei showed up one day and decided that they could just move in which sparked the Troll Wars. By the end of the Troll Wars, the humans and elves committed genocide against the forest trolls.

Maybe learn some lore. First it was the elementals, then black empire, then the titanic creations, then when the well of eternity was formed trolls finally evolved thanks to it fast tracking evolution which also happened to the elves. So yes Trolls did evolve from a primitive lifeform.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Azeroth


As the titan Pantheon traveled the cosmos, ordering worlds and searching for additional titans, a miraculous new world, which would later become known as Azeroth, was taking form in a distant corner of the Great Dark.[4] Forged by primordial infernos,[5][6] the world hosted a nascent titan who stirred to life within its core.[4] As this world-soul developed, she[7] drew in and consumed much of the fifth element, Spirit, causing Azeroth's native elementals to grow increasingly erratic and chaotic. The four Elemental Lords — the ruthlessly cunning Al'Akir the Windlord, the brutish Ragnaros the Firelord, the protective Therazane the Stonemother and the wise Neptulon the Tidehunter — reveled in strife, constantly clashing with each other and keeping the world in constant flux. One day, however, the Old Gods arrived, plummeting down from the Great Dark and embedding themselves in the world's surface. With the aid of their servants, the aqir and the n'raqi, the eldritch horrors established the Black Empire, and though the Elemental Lords attempted to extinguish what they saw as a threat to their dominion, the elementals were eventually enslaved.[4]


Ancient Kalimdor after the ordering of Azeroth.
Azeroth eventually attracted the attention of the wandering titans, who fought the Old Gods in a war of ordering the world and shaping it with artifacts known as the Pillars of Creation.[8] Though the elementals were powerful beyond mortal comprehension, their combined forces could not stop the mighty titans. One by one, the elemental lords fell, and their forces dispersed. The Pantheon shattered the Old Gods' citadels and, after killing at least one, they cast the remaining ones down into eternal imprisonment deep beneath the earth, the place of their confinement hidden from all and their powers bound until the end of time. With the elementals' departure, nature calmed, and the world settled into a peaceful harmony. With the help of their constructs (the ancestors of dwarves, gnomes, vrykul, and giants), the titans paved new landscapes and shaped the world as they saw fit, allowing life to flourish on Azeroth. Satisfied, the titans built hidden cities for their construct creations and created the Great Aspects to guard the planet before leaving on their cosmic journey.

Before leaving, the titans created an enormous lake filled with arcane energy, known as the Well of Eternity, at the center of the great landmass of Kalimdor. The Well accelerated the cycles of growth and rebirth, and soon intelligent races evolved from the land's primitive life forms. The trolls were among the first and most prolific.

[Stelio Kontos]

Torture? Didnt they just bomb?

They took survivors back to Orgrimmar, civilians, and tied them to posts or impaled them and used them for public target practice.

[Koryn123]

Torture? Didnt they just bomb?

Nope, survivors were tortured as we see in Siege of Orgimmar, because Blizzard thought the past two expansions didn't paint Garrosh and the Horde enough as curly mustached cartoon villains with no redeeming qualities.

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I really wish the story weren't bound by the gameplay. It's incredibly immersion-breaking to have to wonder all the time why anyone is still hanging out with orcs and Forsaken.

Tauren: "They helped us fight quilboars and centaurs 10 years ago, so I guess we'll slowly die off over the years for their wars with people we have no quarrel with."

Trolls: "Same, except they helped us kill murlocs and rescued us from a naga."

Blood Elves: "We needed the Forsaken to stay safe in the Ghostlands 7 years ago, and now we don't, but we're still gonna keep involving ourselves in the orc and Forsaken-caused conflicts for some reason."

Goblins: "It's not profitable to play to only one side, but we're gonna do it anyway."

Pandas: "I love killing people I've never met over conflicts I know nothing about just because the Horde and Alliance crashed into the turtle I lived on, wounding it in the process, but then helped heal it a little bit after causing that damage."


Same for the Night Elves toward the Alliance they joined for security against the Horde, which doesn't seem to be working out too well. I vote Tyrande moves the surviving night elves to the Broken Isles to live in Val'sharah with Blackrook Hold, Moonguard Stronghold, and a sizable presence in Mount Hyjal at Nordrassil. If Blizzard plays their cards right, I could easily see Tyrande and the Night Elves becoming my new favored group. Lord knows the blood elves aren't getting their edge that attracted me in BC back any time soon with Lor'themar and Liadrin at the helm.

[alt-ithist]

No. Trolls absolutely did NOT evolve from another race. Them and the aqir are the two oldest races on Azeroth that came into being naturally rather than evolving from Titan construct races like the Earthen. The forest trolls belonged to the Amani Empire, one of the handful of empires of trolls that lived on Azeroth. They are native northern Lordaeron and were absolutely there long before quel'dorei even existed. Then the quel'dorei showed up one day and decided that they could just move in which sparked the Troll Wars. By the end of the Troll Wars, the humans and elves committed genocide against the forest trolls.

But the elves are trolls. As much as they may deny it, they are still just another troll variant like ice trolls, sand trolls and so on.

[TheRevenantHero]

Maybe learn some lore. First it was the elementals, then black empire, then the titanic creations, then when the well of eternity was formed trolls finally evolved thanks to it fast tracking evolution which also happened to the elves. So yes Trolls did evolve from a primitive lifeform.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Azeroth


As the titan Pantheon traveled the cosmos, ordering worlds and searching for additional titans, a miraculous new world, which would later become known as Azeroth, was taking form in a distant corner of the Great Dark.[4] Forged by primordial infernos,[5][6] the world hosted a nascent titan who stirred to life within its core.[4] As this world-soul developed, she[7] drew in and consumed much of the fifth element, Spirit, causing Azeroth's native elementals to grow increasingly erratic and chaotic. The four Elemental Lords — the ruthlessly cunning Al'Akir the Windlord, the brutish Ragnaros the Firelord, the protective Therazane the Stonemother and the wise Neptulon the Tidehunter — reveled in strife, constantly clashing with each other and keeping the world in constant flux. One day, however, the Old Gods arrived, plummeting down from the Great Dark and embedding themselves in the world's surface. With the aid of their servants, the aqir and the n'raqi, the eldritch horrors established the Black Empire, and though the Elemental Lords attempted to extinguish what they saw as a threat to their dominion, the elementals were eventually enslaved.[4]


Ancient Kalimdor after the ordering of Azeroth.
Azeroth eventually attracted the attention of the wandering titans, who fought the Old Gods in a war of ordering the world and shaping it with artifacts known as the Pillars of Creation.[8] Though the elementals were powerful beyond mortal comprehension, their combined forces could not stop the mighty titans. One by one, the elemental lords fell, and their forces dispersed. The Pantheon shattered the Old Gods' citadels and, after killing at least one, they cast the remaining ones down into eternal imprisonment deep beneath the earth, the place of their confinement hidden from all and their powers bound until the end of time. With the elementals' departure, nature calmed, and the world settled into a peaceful harmony. With the help of their constructs (the ancestors of dwarves, gnomes, vrykul, and giants), the titans paved new landscapes and shaped the world as they saw fit, allowing life to flourish on Azeroth. Satisfied, the titans built hidden cities for their construct creations and created the Great Aspects to guard the planet before leaving on their cosmic journey.

Before leaving, the titans created an enormous lake filled with arcane energy, known as the Well of Eternity, at the center of the great landmass of Kalimdor. The Well accelerated the cycles of growth and rebirth, and soon intelligent races evolved from the land's primitive life forms. The trolls were among the first and most prolific.

Primitive lifeform =/= a race. The trolls evolved from more primitive animals much like the humans on Earth. Whereas the other races evolved from other existing races. The trolls came into being by the Well of Eternity accelerating evolution in the nearby fauna. The elementals are hardly a race. The Old Gods are literally just Void Lord constructs. The Titan creations were basically robots so I wouldn't call them a race either.

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But the elves are trolls. As much as they may deny it, they are still just another troll variant like ice trolls, sand trolls and so on.

No they are not. That's like saying all humans are actually vrykul. Contrary to the various troll variants, the elves are an entirely new race that evolved from trolls that lived very close to the Well of Eternity. Calling them a troll variant is wildly incorrect.

[Koryn123]

Primitive lifeform =/= a race. The trolls evolved from more primitive animals much like the humans on Earth. Whereas the other races evolved from other existing races. The trolls came into being by the Well of Eternity accelerating evolution in the nearby fauna. The elementals are hardly a race. The Old Gods are literally just Void Lord constructs. The Titan creations were basically robots so I wouldn't call them a race either.

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No they are not. That's like saying all humans are actually vrykul. Contrary to the various troll variants, the elves are an entirely new race that evolved from trolls that lived very close to the Well of Eternity. Calling them a troll variant is wildly incorrect.

I believe the trolls evolved on their own, and a group of them evolved with help from the Well of Eternity into the Night Elves, but it had nothing to do with the trolls as a whole.

[Theoris]

Okay so does this mean that Thrall committed genocide at the beginning of WC3? After all, he exterminated (or tried to anyway) an entire Alliance garrison, made up of human soldiers…

If you want to get technical, I suppose it does fall under genocide (putting military casualty aside).

However, that's not an apt comparison since those humans weren't under Thrall's command prior to that engagement, and were hostiles trying to kill or capture him from the get-go.

Garithos unfairly imprisoned the blood elves - his allies - just so he could execute them.

[TheRevenantHero]

I believe the trolls evolved on their own, and a group of them evolved with help from the Well of Eternity into the Night Elves, but it had nothing to do with the trolls as a whole.

The trolls evolved from the surrounding fauna that were being supercharged with Titan energy from the Well. There is no race prior to trolls in their evolutionary chain. Then the trolls who stayed close to the Well eventually turned into the Kaldorei.

[Theoris]

Also, how can someone in good conscience focus so much ire on Garithos' actions and yet turn a total blind eye to the even worse atrocities carried out by the Horde?

Because this thread is specifically about the Alliance and the Horde's atrocities aren't what the topic is about?

Just a thought.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Honestly beside the Vulpera thing, It's hard to think of ways the Alliance has been lawful evil tbh.

And TBH, most of the Horde stuff that has been lawfully evil ended up being caused by rogue elements that ended up being removed from power. But still it was legal at the time it happened, so even then doesn't come close to stuff like the Purge of Dalaran and Garithos crimes, both situations done ostensibly for the alliance by alliance members, but not approved nor even presented to the official higher ups.

I believe the trolls evolved on their own, and a group of them evolved with help from the Well of Eternity into the Night Elves, but it had nothing to do with the trolls as a whole.

Diverging evolution. Trolls have continued to evolve naturally over time -as we can see with all their different flavors- Night Elves are just a magically induced evolution than then also had natural evolutions and magically induced ones.

[Tharivor]

I mean dick move for sure, but hardly unprecedented or even frowned upon during wartime. Jaina considered herself at war with the horde and blood elves are part of the horde, its not uncommon to expel or inter potential enemy combatants or spies irrespective of their actual affiliations.

Not according to present-day standards such as the Geneva conventions or the generally accepted laws of war, which generally prohibit collective punishment against civilian populations. Even the WW2 internment of Japanese Americans is seen is controversial, and they were only temporarily moved. Of course pogroms have happened throughout history, but you don't often see moral people arguing that actions such as the genocide and forced deportations of the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire was justified just because they were accused of helping the enemy (in that particular case the Russians).
Considering that WoW in general seems to conform to modern day moral standards, especially in the Alliance, a deliberate pogrom against a civilian population native to a neutral city should definitely be considered wrong even by in-universe standards.

And calling the Sunreavers enemies is a bit of a stretch. They were a mostly civilian population in a neutral city in which they had lived since before the Horde even existed. In fact at the time of the purge they were citizens of this neutral city just as much as the humans and high elves, not guests or recent arrivals. Some had indeed betrayed their neutrality, but that doesn't justify viewing the whole community as enemies.

[Stelio Kontos]

Because this thread is specifically about the Alliance and not the Horde?

Just a thought.

I mean generally, not in this thread specificially. I know what what OP set out to do.

You get folks talking about Garithos as if he's some 10-megaton villain in the same vein as Garrosh, Sylvanas, or a few other Horde heroes. He was a somewhat bigoted local militia commander who went all Colonel Kurtz in the middle of, essentially, the Apocalypse.

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Not according to present-day standards such as the Geneva conventions or the generally accepted laws of war, which generally prohibit collective punishment against civilian populations. Even the WW2 internment of Japanese Americans is seen is controversial, and they were only temporarily moved. Of course pogroms have happened throughout history, but you don't often see moral people arguing that actions such as the genocide and forced deportations of the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire was justified just because they were accused of helping the enemy (in that particular case the Russians).
Considering that WoW in general seems to conform to modern day moral standards, especially in the Alliance, a deliberate pogrom against a civilian population native to a neutral city should definitely be considered wrong even by in-universe standards.

And calling the Sunreavers enemies is a bit of a stretch. They were a mostly civilian population in a neutral city in which they had lived since before the Horde even existed. In fact at the time of the purge they were citizens of this neutral city just as much as the humans and high elves, not guests or recent arrivals. Some had indeed betrayed their neutrality, but that doesn't justify viewing the whole community as enemies.

Using the Geneva Convention would require basically the entire Horde get thrown into prison for the way they conduct their wars, so that door swings both ways.

[Theoris]

I mean generally, not in this thread specificially. I know what what OP set out to do.

So why even bring it up?

He was a somewhat bigoted local militia commander

"Somewhat"?

[Minikin]

Also this thread is most likely gonna' turn into a 'Alliance fanboys never wanna' admit to evil' circlejerk so I'll just say that the reason no one is conceding to your accusations is because 'Alliance wrongs' are usually very overblown or just misconstrued to appear worse than they are.



The fact is that its extremely rare for the Alliance to do evil shit. Gotta' cope with that.

i think its the other way around.

alliance crap is placed in such a way that they always get away with the "wellllllll teckNickalllyyiieeee....weee diddnnnt"
and
horde crap is placed such that every horde action feels like using a hydrogen bomb to kill a fly.

[Bellamas]

Um, letting anyone in the Horde live after they killed baby night elves. The Horde should be completely exterminated down to the last Horde microbe.

[Tharivor]

Using the Geneva Convention would require basically the entire Horde get thrown into prison for the way they conduct their wars, so that door swings both ways.

Agreed. You may have mistaken me for a "Garrosh/Sylvanas did nothing wrong" poster. I am not.

[Newname1234567890]

They took survivors back to Orgrimmar, civilians, and tied them to posts or impaled them and used them for public target practice.

Huh......thats fucked

[Koryn123]

He was a somewhat bigoted

A pissed quote of his from his WoWPedia: "The lesser races must be purged from the kingdom." Even ignoring his desire to literally execute races he didn't like, somewhat bigoted doesn't describe it. Somewhat bigoted is calling non-humans derisive names. Homicidal racist is a better descriptor.

local militia commander

From his WoWPedia:

"Grand Marshal Othmar Garithos was the leader of remnants of the Kingdom of Lordaeron following its downfall during the Third War, as well as the de facto leader of the Alliance resistance in Lordaeron. He was leader of the army by chance, not by merit, being the highest-ranking survivor of Lordaeron's military."

And some of his listed titles:

"Lord, Highlord, Warlord, Grand Marshal, Baron."

It's clear Garithos was the leader of Lordaeron's remnants and had he lived, he may have crowned himself king, but regardless would have had to be seen as the new power in the region by the rest of the Alliance who would have worked with him out of desperation against the Scourge if they wouldn't otherwise.

My guess is he's downplayed and not mentioned in WoW because Blizzard doesn't want to tell the story of anything impure having to do with the Alliance, which is a shame, considering Arthas is one of the most popular characters ever.