Would Sylvanas have beaten Arthas as easily?

[Wyattbw09]

These questions are nearly impossible to answer because of the medium they are filtered though.

The fight we saw came in the form of a high quality cinematic, they needed to limit what they could show for time and cost constraints. Sylvanas needed to win and she needed to win pretty fast, which makes it difficult to portray it as a evenly matched fight that stretched out over time. Had this fight been done in a book it might have been portrayed as vastly different. Obviously, Sylvanas was always going to win for plot reasons no matter which Lich King she was fighting.

Bolvar Lich King however was obviously a VERY strong fighter. We can compare the Sylvanas v. Bolvar fight to the Sylvanas v. Saurfang fight. Bolvar was holding his own or even winning before the magical chain move which Sylvanas got from the Jailer. Sylvanas was absolutely destroying Saurfang before she lost her temper and ran away. The fight before Sylvanas and Saurfang was not even close not even close.

Sylvanas v Arthas Lich King fight does happen but its obviously a much weaker Sylvanas in the Halls of Reflection fight. But it did happen and she was getting crushed by Arthas in that fight.

I would probably argue that Arthas and Bolvar was of relatively equal power based on what little we can gleam.

[Terongor]

Yes, that's it. ALL FORCES can create undead. You are trying to prove to me that these are just different types of necromancy, which at the same time belongs to the power of Death. This is not true. These are all completely different forces and they are not associated with Death. Just as there is only one necromancy (which is indicated in cosmology, not the art of raising undead, which is owned by all powers), there is only one blood magic. Should I explain such obvious things to you?
Exactly, but even before the Chronicle, the Fel and Void were different forces. And Setesh does not use Fel anywhere, even his abilities, in the name of which there is chaos, use Void.

This is why I consider this a plot hole.

Yes, but only if it doesn't work out and the king realizes that he is being seduced by a succubus, the Legion will have much less chance of success. Katra'natir with the Apocalypse made people fight overnight just by pitting everyone against each other, didn't he?

What does this have to do with it? The Aspects gave part of their powers that the Titans gave them to the Dragon Soul. The seals were created by the Highborne with the help of the Pillars. They did not siphon power out of the Pillars or channel it into the press. The Titans are at the top of the Warcraft food chain, as are Elune, Mumbler, Void Lords, and now the Pantheon of Death and the First Ones. I used to call beings of this level gods.

Warlocks and Shadow Priests also use the Void in different ways, don't they? So this is a different Void? There is no corruption arcane. In the old lore, Fel was considered a darker and more powerful version of arcane, in the new lore they are completely different forces.
Sorry, I can't understand why google translator translates arcane as lasso and I don't always notice it before posting. When you see the word lasso in my sentences, just know what I mean to arcane.

I do not cover my tracks, I explain to you the difference between a real battlefield, where everyone is constantly fighting and the situation with Jarod.
I'm glad that you agree with this, but I say that the Aspects are stronger, if only because even against the weakened Aspects, Archimonde could not do anything. Again. Archimonde easily killed the dragon by simply removing all its scales from it. What prevented him from using magic to defeat the WEAKEN Aspect? I'm not asking you why he didn't beat the full Aspect. I ask you how you can think that he is stronger than full Aspects or on the same level with them, if he cannot do anything even against the Aspect, who gave most of his strength (remember that 4 weakened Aspects could not defeat Deathwing, who was just playing with them until Ronin destroyed the Dragon Soul, which means that they gave not just a part of their powers, but at least 80% of their powers) to the Dragon Soul and at the same time the magic of these WEAKEN Aspects constantly surpassed his own magic? And then that magic was enough to kill him?

Again. The Scourge has ALREADY defeated the QuelThalas army. If the elves did not even deal with the undead, they would have no chance against the demons.
Seriously? How did you determine that most of the experiments were done on them? Where is it indicated? And how does this cancel experiments on innocent people who have nothing to do with the Scarlet Crusade? Kilrogg and Blizzard himself have officially confirmed that there were Alliance and Horde champions in the cinematic, lol.
Death
At last, this is the death I saw!
https://web.archive.org/web/20180216...40666239049728
https://web.archive.org/web/20180216...32411488083968

I have no doubt the heroes of Azeroth did it. I say they did it with the help of Alexstrasza and the red dragons.

No, the quote from the Chronicles says nothing about the Emerald Dream being associated with other planets. The quote only presents two versions of its creation: either it appeared on its own, or Freya created it from scratch. Not a word about communication with other planets.

He took only a few steps because, due to his enormous weight, he walks much slower than Grommash runs. Um, what. How do you know the level of power of the Gorehowl compared to other weapons? And can you see an example of a less powerful creature that was hit in the head with the same powerful weapon (if it is officially windy) as Gorehowl and survived?

So were is arcanes or lifes undeads?
Seeing how different mogu blood magic is from venthir blood magic its unlikely. You do realise chaos type damage can first in legion before that in wotlk lock talents chaos Bolt did unresistable shadow damage and during that time every chaos wlock spell was unresistable shadow damage meaning its more towards wlocks again.

Players just were already that strong and if blizz didn't consider it a plot hole and fix it that just shows what Blizzard decided meaning in this case if its you vs Blizzard on this...

Seeing that succubus seduce is more closer to mind control rather actual seduction I would argue against and true on katrana'thir.

As it was speciefied the seals were made out of ",titan power" meaning immense power tracing back to the titans and it khadgar could regonise it being of titan origins they created with the power of pillars of creation not with the help of pillars. God means a divine being while from those only elune seems to be divine being and others are godlike. Lastly it was specified high elves used pillars so atleast two as aegid was with odyn, Hammer of khaz'garoth was with dw, tidestone was farondis or destroyed by azshara leaving that they had to use eye of aman'thul and tear of elune which othet was life not arcane.

Void is differant than blood magic in this case as void is whole universal force so its not really comperable. We have seen Blizzard use term corrupted version of some forces so it would be weird if every force didn't have corrupted version of it.
Okay thank you.
"The caster uses the forces of nature to create a water elemental. He summons the forces of air and water and combines them into a simulacrum to defend the lands. They are excellent creatures, and will never turn upon their creators. The element of water was chosen because it is persistent as in the state of erosion, and it is the opposite of fire, which seems to be the element that the Orcs favor."
"
These mindless, hulking forms of water can take massive punishment from enemy units while delivering tremendous blows in return. Water elementals were a favorite tool of the Conjurors of Azeroth during the First War, and now the enchanted creatures have come to aid the defenders of freedom once again"
There we see that mages create their own water elemental not persay summon them and that they are mindless while actual elemental do have minds.
The point is that with arcane you can create other elements and by creating them from titanic arcane it still should be powerful.

Okay this is acceptable.
We have also take account the in blizzard writing the power of cool and how knaak has habit of giving new characters bullshit feats like what he did to Rhonin, brox and many others like seeing how badly khadgar forced DW to rereat in draenor with just a trick and no other Aspects though of that in 10k years and while Archimonde biggest power feat of planetary destruction over shadows Aspects biggest excluding DW but his lowest feats are weaker than Aspects lowest feats so I'd say just Blizzard has being very inconsistant on case of Archimonde so I'd say he is on same level as highest feats are higher and lowest feats are lower making him hard to place.

Yeah but it was to the point of you saying arthas wouldn't have wiped helfs out if they gave up sunwell willingly and not infuriated arthas like Sylvanas did.
Most living people we see in lordaeron area were serving or living in Scarlet crusade settlements. While there were dalaran mages and southshrone people experimented on yeah for killing lich king it could be said it was for "greater good" though good and evil are PoV and how far you go for the "greater good" is always questionable though same could be said of kael'thas. Yeah but why would Blizzard show AU stuff when maraad was talking about their MU counterparts though it was confirmed Yeah but still doesn't make sense as killrogg wasn't corrupted in his vision.

Well again we have only one thing which indicates alexs was in the fight while which is her quote to DW while chronicles nor ingame place doesn't place her in the fight

The quote leaves it possible in a way that it does have some universalis connection as it doesn't prevent it.

We see Mannoroth running towards thrall if it was moving for battle it wouldn't make sense to walk towards enemy that runs for as speed gives it more force and the force could be countered if equal or higher force clashed with it.
Well for example I'd argue tree of xaviua was weaker than Mannoroth though my Lunch brake is ending I'll list few others when I get home.

[Oneirophobia]

More of these threads. .___.

I don't understand why people are finding it so hard to wrap their head around "Sylvanas is greatly empowered by the infinitely powerful jailer allowing her to do things like laser Saurfang to death and roflstomp a Lich King."

Your answer is likely "yes." For all we know the jailer's powers are bottomless and by extension, so is his main minion Sylvanas.


Do you think trash mobs in raids sit around and complain "theres no way that adventurer could have killed our boss, I don't care what his ilvl is or what weird neck power from Azeroth he was given"?

Besides, Sylvanas is 120 and Bolvar is 80, she probably had netflix going on her other monitor the whole time and didn't even try to avoid defile.

[baskev]

Pumped up on on death steroids, would she have had just as easy of a time against Arthas as she did with Bolvar and just played around with him? What do you think?

Nope and yes. I think she would still beat him. But less easy as bolvar. He had his sword and was not as conflicted as i think bolvar is.
But we do not know. Like i said in a other thread. Sylvannas had a super duber power up from the jailor. Before she was just a faction boss that could barely win from greymane and lost to malfurion. But she now beat saurfang with ease.
And i would put saurfang and greymane in the same kind of power scale. So we do not know the extend of her power boost.

[Vampyrr]

Really boils down to this, they needed Sylvanas to win to advance the story sooo yes she would have won about the same. Arthas was also not about moving fast just tanking hits and dropping powerful attacks of his own that were still rather slow. Unless Arthas took an attack speed and movement speed buff the result would have been similar.

[Nevrex]

From what I understand, Bolvar wasn't even a death knight. All he had was the power of the lich king.

Arthas however was a death knight, had frostmourne, armor of the damned (Bolvar only had pieces of it), helm of domination and a huge army with powerful beings.

I'd say he was way more powerful than Bolvar.

As for Sylvanas vs Arthas, I'm not really sure. Fights don't really make a lot of sense in this universe. You have someone like malfurion getting one shot by an axe, Tyrande losing to a hunter after getting her super night warrior powerup, Sylvanas getting killed by a single bullet and so on...

So in the end, it all depends on the story. Power levels do not matter.

[schwank05]

In ICC she was worried about killing Arthas, she now knows that it is not the man, but rather the Helm of Domination that she needs to destroy.

[darkoms]

So were is arcanes or lifes undeads?
Seeing how different mogu blood magic is from venthir blood magic its unlikely. You do realise chaos type damage can first in legion before that in wotlk lock talents chaos Bolt did unresistable shadow damage and during that time every chaos wlock spell was unresistable shadow damage meaning its more towards wlocks again.

Players just were already that strong and if blizz didn't consider it a plot hole and fix it that just shows what Blizzard decided meaning in this case if its you vs Blizzard on this...

Seeing that succubus seduce is more closer to mind control rather actual seduction I would argue against and true on katrana'thir.

As it was speciefied the seals were made out of ",titan power" meaning immense power tracing back to the titans and it khadgar could regonise it being of titan origins they created with the power of pillars of creation not with the help of pillars. God means a divine being while from those only elune seems to be divine being and others are godlike. Lastly it was specified high elves used pillars so atleast two as aegid was with odyn, Hammer of khaz'garoth was with dw, tidestone was farondis or destroyed by azshara leaving that they had to use eye of aman'thul and tear of elune which othet was life not arcane.

Void is differant than blood magic in this case as void is whole universal force so its not really comperable. We have seen Blizzard use term corrupted version of some forces so it would be weird if every force didn't have corrupted version of it.
Okay thank you.
"The caster uses the forces of nature to create a water elemental. He summons the forces of air and water and combines them into a simulacrum to defend the lands. They are excellent creatures, and will never turn upon their creators. The element of water was chosen because it is persistent as in the state of erosion, and it is the opposite of fire, which seems to be the element that the Orcs favor."
"
These mindless, hulking forms of water can take massive punishment from enemy units while delivering tremendous blows in return. Water elementals were a favorite tool of the Conjurors of Azeroth during the First War, and now the enchanted creatures have come to aid the defenders of freedom once again"
There we see that mages create their own water elemental not persay summon them and that they are mindless while actual elemental do have minds.
The point is that with arcane you can create other elements and by creating them from titanic arcane it still should be powerful.

Okay this is acceptable.
We have also take account the in blizzard writing the power of cool and how knaak has habit of giving new characters bullshit feats like what he did to Rhonin, brox and many others like seeing how badly khadgar forced DW to rereat in draenor with just a trick and no other Aspects though of that in 10k years and while Archimonde biggest power feat of planetary destruction over shadows Aspects biggest excluding DW but his lowest feats are weaker than Aspects lowest feats so I'd say just Blizzard has being very inconsistant on case of Archimonde so I'd say he is on same level as highest feats are higher and lowest feats are lower making him hard to place.

Yeah but it was to the point of you saying arthas wouldn't have wiped helfs out if they gave up sunwell willingly and not infuriated arthas like Sylvanas did.
Most living people we see in lordaeron area were serving or living in Scarlet crusade settlements. While there were dalaran mages and southshrone people experimented on yeah for killing lich king it could be said it was for "greater good" though good and evil are PoV and how far you go for the "greater good" is always questionable though same could be said of kael'thas. Yeah but why would Blizzard show AU stuff when maraad was talking about their MU counterparts though it was confirmed Yeah but still doesn't make sense as killrogg wasn't corrupted in his vision.

Well again we have only one thing which indicates alexs was in the fight while which is her quote to DW while chronicles nor ingame place doesn't place her in the fight

The quote leaves it possible in a way that it does have some universalis connection as it doesn't prevent it.

We see Mannoroth running towards thrall if it was moving for battle it wouldn't make sense to walk towards enemy that runs for as speed gives it more force and the force could be countered if equal or higher force clashed with it.
Well for example I'd argue tree of xaviua was weaker than Mannoroth though my Lunch brake is ending I'll list few others when I get home.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Meryl_Felstorm
Not sure about him, but it seems he was one of the first 100 mages who were trained by the high elves and could not know any other magic other than the arcana.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Infested
Also Krasus in the War of the Ancients was able to raise the corpse of a goblin.
What the hell are you talking about? What does Chaos have to do with it if abilities have EMPTY effects? What has it got to do with in-game magic schools, if we don't even have the same division as in cosmology? Shadow Priests, Warlocks, and DCs all do Shadow damage. So they all use the Void? Or is it Death? Also, Chaos as an in-game magic school is a multi-school of all types https://wow.gamepedia.com/Chaos_(spell_school)
We don't have a separate school for Fel.

The Wotlk players couldn't even defeat the Lich King, who is weaker than Lei Shen, and in Cataclysm, they can already defeat AlAkir, who is many times stronger than Lei Shen? If the players' power grows at this rate, then by the Legion they could defeat Sargeras on their own.

But if seduction doesn't work, the demons will have problems. So why are you saying it will take too long for the Nathrezim?

Can I see something other than your theories and assumptions about who and what could have done? I'm tired of the fact that our dispute looks like a confrontation between PROOF (from me) and ASSUMPTION (from you). Okay, now explain to me what a god is in Warcraft, what are the signs of the gods and is there a separate race of gods that you said that titans cannot be called gods. I just can't understand how you determined that there is Life in Elune's Tear, and not Arkan. Or maybe there is Light at all? This thing opened up the heart of the Light, didn't it? It's also funny that Azshara is able to shatter the Pillar of Creation. I don't think she can do the same with the Aspect.

There is a Shadow as a universal force, and there is a Shadow / Void which is magic and is a partial manifestation of the Shadow in the material universe. Just like there is Light and holy. Just like there is Life and nature. Death and necromancy. Chaos and fel. Order and arcane. So in this regard, the Void (as magic, not as a force) is not much different from blood magic. Where does Blizzard use the term tainted force after the advent of cosmology? Seriously? Do you give me proofs from Warcraft and Warcraft 2? Do you know that in these games people worshiped ANGELS AND ARCHANGELS WHO WERE WITH DEMONS? Do you want to use THESE GAMES AS A PROOF? Each time your arguments are more ridiculous, serious. The lore of Warcraft was in its infancy and there was not even a hint of cosmology. You could just use the example from the Tomb of Sargeras where Khadgar created the water elementals. But I've never denied that mages CREATE elementals, not summon them. I'm talking about the fact that sorcerers cannot create elements from scratch. They subdue the elements around them and use them to attack or to create elementals. Forgive me if I am not making myself clear enough for you to understand what I mean.

Knaak really makes uber characters out of the main characters. But its rules don't apply to support characters or main villains. Therefore, it is not necessary to apply this to the Aspects (although it does apply to Krasus). In Khadgar's case, he himself admitted that his battle spells had no way of damaging Deathwing. For example, ice spells were completely useless because Deathwing had lava instead of blood. Khadgar wasn't stronger than Deathwing or something. He simply removed the plates and Deathwing began to fall apart from his own strength. Archimonde specializes in FEL magic. This is the magic of DESTRUCTION. Obviously, it is much easier for him to destroy the planet than, for example, Alexstrasza. How will she destroy the planet? Will she just breathe a lot? Malygos can possibly do it, but it will be more difficult for him and he can do it his own way. In the Chronicle, it was said that the actions of Malygos and his flock to siphon arcane from the planet caused natural disasters and could damage the soul world. Also, indirect evidence should not outweigh direct evidence. This is not an anime where a character who can cause more destruction is also stronger in battle. Many people forget about it. The feats of Archimonde are steeper than the feats of the Aspects, but we have 2 examples of the interaction between Archimonde's magic and the magic of the WEAKENED Aspects, and Archimonde's magic turned out to be weaker. And he himself died because of an insignificant part of their power in Nordrassil. I have no doubt that if Archimonde had created the fel shield as he can do the things named after him (https://www.wowhead.com/item=144249/...-hatred-reborn), he would definitely have survived and might not even would have received no damage, but the fact that without protection he dies from an insignificant part of their powers shows the difference in the strength of Archimonde and the Aspects. You know that Archimonde would have died from a tiny fraction of the Lich King's forces, even if he had no defense against it? Because of this, Archimonde is much stronger than Arthas.

Arthas would have killed many of them, but that would not have been his goal. He would just walk to Sunwell and go back, killing only those who get in his way. Because of Sylvanas, he unleashed his fury on the high elves. I'm not saying that I had to give up. But in the end, due to her pride and stupidity, Sylvanas did not defend her country, and greatly angered Arthas. Perhaps because only the Scarlet Crusade could protect them? Oh of course. Why capture enemy undead and make weapons specifically against the enemy undead and Arthas, you can make weapons against the living too! And experiment with innocent people. Well, as the Arbiter shows, good and evil objectively exist in Warcraft. Arthas and Sargeras also believed that they were acting for a greater good. So they are not villains? I don't know why, ask them. I have already shown you that Maraad did not know all the details and that Blizzard hinted at the Alliance and Horde in visions. Also these visions are pretty weird, don't you think? I mean, in this battle, players see their death alongside Khadgar in the blazing Stormwind / Undercity, besieged by demons. There was nothing like that in the Legion. The players are still alive.

As I already indicated, NPCs also did not damage Archimonde in Draenor and practically did not participate in the fight with KilJaeden (they just beat the demons on the ship). So did Alexstrasza lie to Deathwing? Did you want to scare him? I think trying to scare him is useless and she knew it.

Nothing prevents Gandalf from eating children. So, most likely, he ate them. In order to assert something, it is necessary to provide some kind of proofs that at least somehow confirm this point of view.

I have no idea why he didn't run at Grommash. Perhaps due to the fact that there was too little distance between them and if he ran, Grommash would be faster next to him and it would be more difficult for him to hit him (nevertheless, with his huge blade, it is easier for him to hit a target that is not close to him). So he just walks. In any case, Chronicle 3 states that he simply did not expect Grommash to attack him at all. Do you mean Xavius ​​from the raid? It's really hard to say. In the real world? Rather, yes. But we fought Xavius ​​in the heart of the Nightmare. In the place where the power is greatest. Or Elisande, for example. Is she weaker than Mannoroth? Of course yes. But how much? Do you know those old style ankedots how many orcs does it take to screw in a light bulb? It's the same here. How many Elisands does it take to defeat Mannoroth? 2? 3? I point out to you that we know for sure that Al'Akir is MUCH stronger than Ra. Even at the peak of his powers, Ra needed the help of 2 more Keepers to defeat Al'Akir, and in pandaria Ra is not only weakened (the Keepers lost most of their strength after the ordering of Azeroth), but for thousands of years he was in prison, where, judging by his wounds were tortured and pieces of his flesh were taken away (The [Divine Bell] being "cast from the maker's flesh", [25] as well as the large wounds on Ra's body, together imply that it was literally made from Ra's flesh). He was clearly not in the best shape by the time he met the players.

[Terongor]

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Meryl_Felstorm
Not sure about him, but it seems he was one of the first 100 mages who were trained by the high elves and could not know any other magic other than the arcana.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Infested
Also Krasus in the War of the Ancients was able to raise the corpse of a goblin.
What the hell are you talking about? What does Chaos have to do with it if abilities have EMPTY effects? What has it got to do with in-game magic schools, if we don't even have the same division as in cosmology? Shadow Priests, Warlocks, and DCs all do Shadow damage. So they all use the Void? Or is it Death? Also, Chaos as an in-game magic school is a multi-school of all types https://wow.gamepedia.com/Chaos_(spell_school)
We don't have a separate school for Fel.

The Wotlk players couldn't even defeat the Lich King, who is weaker than Lei Shen, and in Cataclysm, they can already defeat AlAkir, who is many times stronger than Lei Shen? If the players' power grows at this rate, then by the Legion they could defeat Sargeras on their own.

But if seduction doesn't work, the demons will have problems. So why are you saying it will take too long for the Nathrezim?

Can I see something other than your theories and assumptions about who and what could have done? I'm tired of the fact that our dispute looks like a confrontation between PROOF (from me) and ASSUMPTION (from you). Okay, now explain to me what a god is in Warcraft, what are the signs of the gods and is there a separate race of gods that you said that titans cannot be called gods. I just can't understand how you determined that there is Life in Elune's Tear, and not Arkan. Or maybe there is Light at all? This thing opened up the heart of the Light, didn't it? It's also funny that Azshara is able to shatter the Pillar of Creation. I don't think she can do the same with the Aspect.

There is a Shadow as a universal force, and there is a Shadow / Void which is magic and is a partial manifestation of the Shadow in the material universe. Just like there is Light and holy. Just like there is Life and nature. Death and necromancy. Chaos and fel. Order and arcane. So in this regard, the Void (as magic, not as a force) is not much different from blood magic. Where does Blizzard use the term tainted force after the advent of cosmology? Seriously? Do you give me proofs from Warcraft and Warcraft 2? Do you know that in these games people worshiped ANGELS AND ARCHANGELS WHO WERE WITH DEMONS? Do you want to use THESE GAMES AS A PROOF? Each time your arguments are more ridiculous, serious. The lore of Warcraft was in its infancy and there was not even a hint of cosmology. You could just use the example from the Tomb of Sargeras where Khadgar created the water elementals. But I've never denied that mages CREATE elementals, not summon them. I'm talking about the fact that sorcerers cannot create elements from scratch. They subdue the elements around them and use them to attack or to create elementals. Forgive me if I am not making myself clear enough for you to understand what I mean.

Knaak really makes uber characters out of the main characters. But its rules don't apply to support characters or main villains. Therefore, it is not necessary to apply this to the Aspects (although it does apply to Krasus). In Khadgar's case, he himself admitted that his battle spells had no way of damaging Deathwing. For example, ice spells were completely useless because Deathwing had lava instead of blood. Khadgar wasn't stronger than Deathwing or something. He simply removed the plates and Deathwing began to fall apart from his own strength. Archimonde specializes in FEL magic. This is the magic of DESTRUCTION. Obviously, it is much easier for him to destroy the planet than, for example, Alexstrasza. How will she destroy the planet? Will she just breathe a lot? Malygos can possibly do it, but it will be more difficult for him and he can do it his own way. In the Chronicle, it was said that the actions of Malygos and his flock to siphon arcane from the planet caused natural disasters and could damage the soul world. Also, indirect evidence should not outweigh direct evidence. This is not an anime where a character who can cause more destruction is also stronger in battle. Many people forget about it. The feats of Archimonde are steeper than the feats of the Aspects, but we have 2 examples of the interaction between Archimonde's magic and the magic of the WEAKENED Aspects, and Archimonde's magic turned out to be weaker. And he himself died because of an insignificant part of their power in Nordrassil. I have no doubt that if Archimonde had created the fel shield as he can do the things named after him (https://www.wowhead.com/item=144249/...-hatred-reborn), he would definitely have survived and might not even would have received no damage, but the fact that without protection he dies from an insignificant part of their powers shows the difference in the strength of Archimonde and the Aspects. You know that Archimonde would have died from a tiny fraction of the Lich King's forces, even if he had no defense against it? Because of this, Archimonde is much stronger than Arthas.

Arthas would have killed many of them, but that would not have been his goal. He would just walk to Sunwell and go back, killing only those who get in his way. Because of Sylvanas, he unleashed his fury on the high elves. I'm not saying that I had to give up. But in the end, due to her pride and stupidity, Sylvanas did not defend her country, and greatly angered Arthas. Perhaps because only the Scarlet Crusade could protect them? Oh of course. Why capture enemy undead and make weapons specifically against the enemy undead and Arthas, you can make weapons against the living too! And experiment with innocent people. Well, as the Arbiter shows, good and evil objectively exist in Warcraft. Arthas and Sargeras also believed that they were acting for a greater good. So they are not villains? I don't know why, ask them. I have already shown you that Maraad did not know all the details and that Blizzard hinted at the Alliance and Horde in visions. Also these visions are pretty weird, don't you think? I mean, in this battle, players see their death alongside Khadgar in the blazing Stormwind / Undercity, besieged by demons. There was nothing like that in the Legion. The players are still alive.

As I already indicated, NPCs also did not damage Archimonde in Draenor and practically did not participate in the fight with KilJaeden (they just beat the demons on the ship). So did Alexstrasza lie to Deathwing? Did you want to scare him? I think trying to scare him is useless and she knew it.

Nothing prevents Gandalf from eating children. So, most likely, he ate them. In order to assert something, it is necessary to provide some kind of proofs that at least somehow confirm this point of view.

I have no idea why he didn't run at Grommash. Perhaps due to the fact that there was too little distance between them and if he ran, Grommash would be faster next to him and it would be more difficult for him to hit him (nevertheless, with his huge blade, it is easier for him to hit a target that is not close to him). So he just walks. In any case, Chronicle 3 states that he simply did not expect Grommash to attack him at all. Do you mean Xavius ​​from the raid? It's really hard to say. In the real world? Rather, yes. But we fought Xavius ​​in the heart of the Nightmare. In the place where the power is greatest. Or Elisande, for example. Is she weaker than Mannoroth? Of course yes. But how much? Do you know those old style ankedots how many orcs does it take to screw in a light bulb? It's the same here. How many Elisands does it take to defeat Mannoroth? 2? 3? I point out to you that we know for sure that Al'Akir is MUCH stronger than Ra. Even at the peak of his powers, Ra needed the help of 2 more Keepers to defeat Al'Akir, and in pandaria Ra is not only weakened (the Keepers lost most of their strength after the ordering of Azeroth), but for thousands of years he was in prison, where, judging by his wounds were tortured and pieces of his flesh were taken away (The [Divine Bell] being "cast from the maker's flesh", [25] as well as the large wounds on Ra's body, together imply that it was literally made from Ra's flesh). He was clearly not in the best shape by the time he met the players.

Meryl yeah but infested aren't undeads " fleshy beings that have been infested and subsequently transformed into plant-like forms"
"empty effect"? Yeah we don't but nor do we have seperate type for fel or void either and the boss using warlocks spells having being named after what fel was descriped pretty soon after that its more likely it used fel.

Why do expect the power growth is always expenetional?

As seduction shows to be more akin to mind control also why not send both as it would double the effect?

It was stated that gods are divine beings and it was stated by sources you quoted to me that they were godlike. Its same as things can be like something but not it.
God isn't race as what you linked to me god just means a divine being.

As there needs to be as it was stated in legion that seals were made by pillars of creation and it was in that there was more than one eye of aman'thul was one and only other which could have being used was tear of elune as others were in places or in states they couldn't be used and life in tear of elune as how easily it was nightmare corrupted by xavius and life is seems to be weak against nightmare while light doesn't.

So show it to me from blizzard source which shows you can create life from death magic other than mogu blood shaping. Tomb of sargeras audio drama "corruped fel", He didn't create water elemental... he created arcane elemental.... and you call my knowledge infatile... and they were only ones which explained it we had no others really defining it and by this latest is still canon and yeah you did in your earlier comment with all that lasso stuff.

Also why it doesn't apply to them? have you read knaaks own books? he makes every supporting being uber if he can....heck Nekros was so gifted as warlock he was asked to join the shadow council but refused it while rhonin wasn't even that great yet meaning in no actual way should have rhonin being able to beat nekros also the powers in most cases work differentaly as Azshara couldn't do what tidestone did in nazjattar parting the seas but azshara easily destroyed does that mean azshara was far away from well more powerful than pillar of creation then?

and the rest of scourge would have wiped out the rest in the area just wandering around and arthas only said that we would have spared them in wc3 while its NEVER mentioned anywere else. They weren't innocent whent they started supporting scarlet war effort with supplies... would you call people giving food to ISIS innocent? It was not in any context on arbiter used that he judges if you are good or evil just that he judges your soul and only corrupted and/or most dangerous souls go to the maw so meaning that your souls is dangerous without any bad deeds you would still go to maw. Villains? no. Antagonists? Yeah. Maraad knew how kilrogg died in MU they could have shown us that. Well as kilrogg didn't give up another eye or we didn't its unlikely it was as powerful.

They still were there standing around and doing their animations while alexs didn't even show up and thats the most important part.

Not really just need to provide proof that opens the possibility.

Seeing how little distance there was between thrall and mannoroth its not an excuse when mannoroth wiped out thrall and if larger objects starts accelerating its moving force grows alot more rapidly meaning again he would have countered grom in everyway. Jesus with these monologues of yours. Also cinematic and chronicles 3 is compatitle as some veteran warrior had extreme battle reflexxes and reactions meaning they might be suprised but still automaticaly take their defensive postion like some martial arts masters.

[darkoms]

Meryl yeah but infested aren't undeads " fleshy beings that have been infested and subsequently transformed into plant-like forms"
"empty effect"? Yeah we don't but nor do we have seperate type for fel or void either and the boss using warlocks spells having being named after what fel was descriped pretty soon after that its more likely it used fel.

Why do expect the power growth is always expenetional?

As seduction shows to be more akin to mind control also why not send both as it would double the effect?

It was stated that gods are divine beings and it was stated by sources you quoted to me that they were godlike. Its same as things can be like something but not it.
God isn't race as what you linked to me god just means a divine being.

As there needs to be as it was stated in legion that seals were made by pillars of creation and it was in that there was more than one eye of aman'thul was one and only other which could have being used was tear of elune as others were in places or in states they couldn't be used and life in tear of elune as how easily it was nightmare corrupted by xavius and life is seems to be weak against nightmare while light doesn't.

So show it to me from blizzard source which shows you can create life from death magic other than mogu blood shaping. Tomb of sargeras audio drama "corruped fel", He didn't create water elemental... he created arcane elemental.... and you call my knowledge infatile... and they were only ones which explained it we had no others really defining it and by this latest is still canon and yeah you did in your earlier comment with all that lasso stuff.

Also why it doesn't apply to them? have you read knaaks own books? he makes every supporting being uber if he can....heck Nekros was so gifted as warlock he was asked to join the shadow council but refused it while rhonin wasn't even that great yet meaning in no actual way should have rhonin being able to beat nekros also the powers in most cases work differentaly as Azshara couldn't do what tidestone did in nazjattar parting the seas but azshara easily destroyed does that mean azshara was far away from well more powerful than pillar of creation then?

and the rest of scourge would have wiped out the rest in the area just wandering around and arthas only said that we would have spared them in wc3 while its NEVER mentioned anywere else. They weren't innocent whent they started supporting scarlet war effort with supplies... would you call people giving food to ISIS innocent? It was not in any context on arbiter used that he judges if you are good or evil just that he judges your soul and only corrupted and/or most dangerous souls go to the maw so meaning that your souls is dangerous without any bad deeds you would still go to maw. Villains? no. Antagonists? Yeah. Maraad knew how kilrogg died in MU they could have shown us that. Well as kilrogg didn't give up another eye or we didn't its unlikely it was as powerful.

They still were there standing around and doing their animations while alexs didn't even show up and thats the most important part.

Not really just need to provide proof that opens the possibility.

Seeing how little distance there was between thrall and mannoroth its not an excuse when mannoroth wiped out thrall and if larger objects starts accelerating its moving force grows alot more rapidly meaning again he would have countered grom in everyway. Jesus with these monologues of yours. Also cinematic and chronicles 3 is compatitle as some veteran warrior had extreme battle reflexxes and reactions meaning they might be suprised but still automaticaly take their defensive postion like some martial arts masters.

They are dead (seemingly) mindless creatures raised by magic. In fact, they are no different from zombies.
LOL what? Once again, even those of his abilities that contain the word Chaos use VOYD. His abilities have VOYE effects. He summons VOID creatures, and does not summon ANY demon. Also I have no idea why you are arguing with this. Your original argument was that it doesn't make sense for a Titan servant to use Death, but are you okay with a Titan servant using Fel? The opposite of arcane magic that the Titans are made of? Sometimes I get the feeling that you don't care what we argue about, you just enjoy arguing.

I didn't say that, but players are getting stronger with every PATCH we see in the Chronicle. The heroes became stronger during the second meeting with Kael and for him only a dungeon was required, not a raid, although he himself became stronger.

Ask Blizzard. Why didn't the Legion just send the Nathrezim and Succubus to seduce Terenas and, for example, force him to go to war on Quel'Thalas?

Can you give me examples of gods in Warcraft? It is the creatures who have it written that their race is God. Not the Ancient Gods, not Elune (because we have no idea what race she belongs to, and the Titans are often called gods even inside the game), but some Gods, which are a separate race and because of which I cannot call the Titans such so that confusion does not arise. Or just admit that you find fault with the words. Because divine beings are also an expandable concept.

Nightmare also uses the Void, lol, this is the creation of the Old Gods. I also don't understand your argument. The nightmare can desecrate not only druids and nature. The nightmare even affected the undead in the Malfurion book. So Death is also vulnerable to the Nightmare? And how was LIFE able to activate the heart of LIGHT? Your arguments just don't work.

Flesh-shaping is an extremely painful process which is used on living animals. It "stretches" skin, bone and flesh on animals, forming it into new shapes, while they're alive and screaming loudly. Mastering this power requires decades of study. [2] The Engine of Nalak'sha was the source of the mogu's flesh-shaping power. [3] [4] In the Halls of Flesh-Shaping lies the mysterious substance responsible for all mogu flesh-shaping experiments. [5]
Isn't this a mixture of arcana and blood magic if source of the power Nalak'sha engine? Corrupt Fel? What? And how is its corruption manifested? Filth is the power that feeds. How was it corrupted? Void? More Fel? Please give me a quote so that I understand the context. Most likely, it simply meant that the Fel is a corrupting force in itself. Sorry, you're right. In my localization, it is not indicated at all which elemental he created. It just states that he presented a drop and created an elemental and I thought that he created a water elemental. Quite a minor mistake compared to the nonsense that you often write. I did not understand anything. Who explained what? What's still canon? What are you speaking about? About magicians and elements? There used to be two versions of what sorcerers do. Some argued that magicians simply create an element out of nothing and use it in battle. The latter said that magicians invoke the power of the elements from the elemental planes. Medivh later explained that both versions were wrong. The elements are always nearby and magicians do not call them from the elemental planes, but subdue them with the help of arcane and use them in battle. When Jaina attempted to drown Orgrimmar, Thrall saw in this enormous will a vast number of subordinate elemental spirits. They asked him to release them from Jaina's grip.

LOL what? Every supportive character? The wild gods and Cenarius, the teacher of the protagonist, were rather quickly defeated by the demons (although, largely due to their own self-confidence and underestimation of the demons). I've also read his books on Diablo and I don't remember any super-strong characters other than the main character. Both Tyrael and Diablo look pretty pathetic against Uldyssian's background. So no, Knaak makes Mary Sue out of the main characters only. Ronin was Krasus's apprentice (who is Mary Sue himself) and I see no problem with Ronin defeating Nekros (although I don't even remember them fighting. Didn't Ronin just free Alexstrasza, who ate Nekros? I would be glad if you would give me a quote). Azshara used the power of the Tidestone, yes. It was the combined power of Azshara and Tidestone, not just Tidestone doing things on its own.

The Scourge did what they were ordered to do. The Scourge had no free will to simply kill if Arthas ordered them to do something else instead of killing everyone. So what? This does not mean that it is not canon, unless otherwise stated. Retcones work only if new information refutes old information, and not if something has simply ceased to be mentioned. An incredibly strange example. Again. What choice do they have? Only the Scarlet Crusade could protect them from the undead. That's it.
Spoiled and dangerous. This usually applies to villains, doesn't it? Arthas fell into the Maw. Is he not a villain? What does Maraad's knowledge have to do with it, if Blizzard had already said that Maraad himself did not know the details of the vision? He was talking about the vision. So it's all about the other eye? Because he only donated one eye? Then here is the answer to your question why he was not corrupted in his vision.

As I said, in Legion you can do things that were not allowed in Wotlk. The game stepped forward. And hasn't she been there since phase 3? Her unused quote hints that she appeared at the same time as her dragons:
Alexstrasza the Life-Binder: Champions! Malygos is tapping into the arcane energies he has harvested from Azeroth's Lay-Lines. Alone you would surely be over whelmed. My children blessed with my power shall aid you in your fight!
Alexstrasza the Life-Binder: Champions! My children blessed with my power shall aid you in your fight!
Perhaps just due to the fact that these quotes are cut, such a plot hole arises as the victory of the players over the Aspects. Even if Alexstrasza was not personally involved, the help of a bunch of dragons that she specially empowered for this battle is a tangible reinforcement.

Possibility? From the very beginning of the dispute, you presented this as an irrefutable fact and asked how I would refute the map from the Chronicles.

The strength increases, but it would be less comfortable for him to hit. And Grommash is also far better physically developed than Thrall. What? Too complex thoughts? And as I said, Chronicle 3 states that Mannoroth did not expect the blow, which does not exactly match the cutscene from Warcraft 3. Mannoroth did not automatically take up defensive positions, he just started walking at Grommash and swinging his blade (and not trying to somehow defend himself with it.).

[danielewhite]

if Sylvanas had not win...we wouldn't have the next expansion....so yes she would have won even if she had to face Sargeras...
and now for a rather more interesting question, who said Sylvanas won against Bolvar?

that trailer looks like somehow it was Arthas the one orchestrating all.
"Icecrown citadel where a usurper sits on a frozen throne, but no king rules forever."

usurper sounds almost like he had taken something from her... which initially leads you to believe she is going to claim the throne...but she didn't.
and no king rules forever...how does she know this line? she was never there to hear it...is this just a reference for us the players? or is there an in-game reason...

I honestly think Arthas is once again controlling Sylvanas' will.

[Grazrug]

I sure hope so.
For the vile sins Arthas committed he deserves to suffer in the Maw eternally.

[Terongor]

They are dead (seemingly) mindless creatures raised by magic. In fact, they are no different from zombies.
LOL what? Once again, even those of his abilities that contain the word Chaos use VOYD. His abilities have VOYE effects. He summons VOID creatures, and does not summon ANY demon. Also I have no idea why you are arguing with this. Your original argument was that it doesn't make sense for a Titan servant to use Death, but are you okay with a Titan servant using Fel? The opposite of arcane magic that the Titans are made of? Sometimes I get the feeling that you don't care what we argue about, you just enjoy arguing.

I didn't say that, but players are getting stronger with every PATCH we see in the Chronicle. The heroes became stronger during the second meeting with Kael and for him only a dungeon was required, not a raid, although he himself became stronger.

Ask Blizzard. Why didn't the Legion just send the Nathrezim and Succubus to seduce Terenas and, for example, force him to go to war on Quel'Thalas?

Can you give me examples of gods in Warcraft? It is the creatures who have it written that their race is God. Not the Ancient Gods, not Elune (because we have no idea what race she belongs to, and the Titans are often called gods even inside the game), but some Gods, which are a separate race and because of which I cannot call the Titans such so that confusion does not arise. Or just admit that you find fault with the words. Because divine beings are also an expandable concept.

Nightmare also uses the Void, lol, this is the creation of the Old Gods. I also don't understand your argument. The nightmare can desecrate not only druids and nature. The nightmare even affected the undead in the Malfurion book. So Death is also vulnerable to the Nightmare? And how was LIFE able to activate the heart of LIGHT? Your arguments just don't work.

Flesh-shaping is an extremely painful process which is used on living animals. It "stretches" skin, bone and flesh on animals, forming it into new shapes, while they're alive and screaming loudly. Mastering this power requires decades of study. [2] The Engine of Nalak'sha was the source of the mogu's flesh-shaping power. [3] [4] In the Halls of Flesh-Shaping lies the mysterious substance responsible for all mogu flesh-shaping experiments. [5]
Isn't this a mixture of arcana and blood magic if source of the power Nalak'sha engine? Corrupt Fel? What? And how is its corruption manifested? Filth is the power that feeds. How was it corrupted? Void? More Fel? Please give me a quote so that I understand the context. Most likely, it simply meant that the Fel is a corrupting force in itself. Sorry, you're right. In my localization, it is not indicated at all which elemental he created. It just states that he presented a drop and created an elemental and I thought that he created a water elemental. Quite a minor mistake compared to the nonsense that you often write. I did not understand anything. Who explained what? What's still canon? What are you speaking about? About magicians and elements? There used to be two versions of what sorcerers do. Some argued that magicians simply create an element out of nothing and use it in battle. The latter said that magicians invoke the power of the elements from the elemental planes. Medivh later explained that both versions were wrong. The elements are always nearby and magicians do not call them from the elemental planes, but subdue them with the help of arcane and use them in battle. When Jaina attempted to drown Orgrimmar, Thrall saw in this enormous will a vast number of subordinate elemental spirits. They asked him to release them from Jaina's grip.

LOL what? Every supportive character? The wild gods and Cenarius, the teacher of the protagonist, were rather quickly defeated by the demons (although, largely due to their own self-confidence and underestimation of the demons). I've also read his books on Diablo and I don't remember any super-strong characters other than the main character. Both Tyrael and Diablo look pretty pathetic against Uldyssian's background. So no, Knaak makes Mary Sue out of the main characters only. Ronin was Krasus's apprentice (who is Mary Sue himself) and I see no problem with Ronin defeating Nekros (although I don't even remember them fighting. Didn't Ronin just free Alexstrasza, who ate Nekros? I would be glad if you would give me a quote). Azshara used the power of the Tidestone, yes. It was the combined power of Azshara and Tidestone, not just Tidestone doing things on its own.

The Scourge did what they were ordered to do. The Scourge had no free will to simply kill if Arthas ordered them to do something else instead of killing everyone. So what? This does not mean that it is not canon, unless otherwise stated. Retcones work only if new information refutes old information, and not if something has simply ceased to be mentioned. An incredibly strange example. Again. What choice do they have? Only the Scarlet Crusade could protect them from the undead. That's it.
Spoiled and dangerous. This usually applies to villains, doesn't it? Arthas fell into the Maw. Is he not a villain? What does Maraad's knowledge have to do with it, if Blizzard had already said that Maraad himself did not know the details of the vision? He was talking about the vision. So it's all about the other eye? Because he only donated one eye? Then here is the answer to your question why he was not corrupted in his vision.

As I said, in Legion you can do things that were not allowed in Wotlk. The game stepped forward. And hasn't she been there since phase 3? Her unused quote hints that she appeared at the same time as her dragons:
Alexstrasza the Life-Binder: Champions! Malygos is tapping into the arcane energies he has harvested from Azeroth's Lay-Lines. Alone you would surely be over whelmed. My children blessed with my power shall aid you in your fight!
Alexstrasza the Life-Binder: Champions! My children blessed with my power shall aid you in your fight!
Perhaps just due to the fact that these quotes are cut, such a plot hole arises as the victory of the players over the Aspects. Even if Alexstrasza was not personally involved, the help of a bunch of dragons that she specially empowered for this battle is a tangible reinforcement.

Possibility? From the very beginning of the dispute, you presented this as an irrefutable fact and asked how I would refute the map from the Chronicles.

The strength increases, but it would be less comfortable for him to hit. And Grommash is also far better physically developed than Thrall. What? Too complex thoughts? And as I said, Chronicle 3 states that Mannoroth did not expect the blow, which does not exactly match the cutscene from Warcraft 3. Mannoroth did not automatically take up defensive positions, he just started walking at Grommash and swinging his blade (and not trying to somehow defend himself with it.).

Some withered and wretched are mindless too and no different from zombies so thats not an arguments as they aren't undead either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tw-NjWkPp9c Chaos bolt and chaos blast use fel green effects, chaos portals use portals we only see demons used till that point aswell, seed of chaos use visually same effects warlock seed of corruption uses only mainly shadow crash could be ability which is closest of being void but on even that we have similiar spells used by demons like mannoroth and yeah we have seen demons and warlocks summon void creatures like void walkers. Using opposte power in my eyes makes sense as its similiar on same ways being descriped as chaos while arcane is order. As we death even in Odyn and helyas case was extremely new and they had to research it.

Your wording gave the picture you did as beating sargeras as planets size titan in legiona and lastly power growth most likely slowed down alot in wod.

Because problem there was high elves and kirin tor would have most likely noticed it.

We have no race like written in the game if you are not talking about code itself as code is sometimes just placeholder and elune is worshipped on other worlds besides azeroth we haven't see any other creatures which have had being worshipped on other worlds and as it was seperated by blizzard we have to take their word for it that titans are just godlike not gods and gods are divine beings in wow universe. Why are you arguing against blizzard?

Druids being particularly weak to nightmare corruption is pretty telling on itself why the nightmare particularly strong against life and lasly that more of good question which we don't have answer to yet

That just shows blood magic has possible origins in arcane not life or death as flesh shaping uses as its fuel anima "Anima is life energy harnessed and condensed into liquid form.[2]". You haven't bothered send anyquotes from tomb of sargeras audio book transcripes why should I send any to you again as it takes enough time to asnwer you? Not at all minor and I haven't made such mistakes again most of my "mistakes" have being you need google translate all this and can't undestand it. Give me a quote from this from medivh as you even have to use translators so I need to context here like you do all time.

Have you read dragonlance series? if you have then you know how bullshit strong he writes his "super strong secondary characters" and on tidestone "In a frightening display of arcane power Azshara remotely destroyed the Tidestone, releasing a wave of dark energy over all of Azsuna[5]" we have never seen anyone remotely being able to use powers of pillars of creation and we have no incations that its azsharas and tidestone combined power just azsharas power.

Scourge would stayed there and started roaming around mindlessly as we have seeing in the past as sometimes they are just left in the area and you are here attacking then some sources I use which haven't being retconned just most likely forgotten and they had argent dawn at that point. Spoiled? were the heck did that come from and in literature more like 50% of the time !This horrific place houses the most vile and irredeemable souls in existence—ones deemed by the Arbiter to represent a threat to the Shadowlands if left free." "deemed by tha arbiter ro represent thrat to shadowland" meaning if arbiters thinks you are dangerous to the shadowlands without any bad deeds it means of to the maw.

As I said we saw similiar thing in KJ fight with kalecgos so thats not an excuse and they were cut content as such if we start by cut content we have take all cut content of all the expansions as canon and it was just mentioned in the cutcontent that they were blessed by her powers not anywere else so again it didn't happen at all and again they were not dragon they were drakes as they used a drakes model.

Possible yeah and the map just supports its possibility.

Object of far greater mass could use just his mass and increased speed to negate objects of far less mass and similiar or even much faster speeds force and by that it would have thrown grommash towards canyon wall and far better physically wouldn't mean shit if object which comperably weighted more like car hit strong and stonger individual if they only weigh couldn't compete and seeing how huge effect mannoroth has when he moves it and comparing it to when grommash moves their mass isn't comperable. he tookk 2 steppes which in many fighting styles is important in defensive positions and yeha chronicles said he didn't expect a blow and that he was suprised.

[darkoms]

Some withered and wretched are mindless too and no different from zombies so thats not an arguments as they aren't undead either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tw-NjWkPp9c Chaos bolt and chaos blast use fel green effects, chaos portals use portals we only see demons used till that point aswell, seed of chaos use visually same effects warlock seed of corruption uses only mainly shadow crash could be ability which is closest of being void but on even that we have similiar spells used by demons like mannoroth and yeah we have seen demons and warlocks summon void creatures like void walkers. Using opposte power in my eyes makes sense as its similiar on same ways being descriped as chaos while arcane is order. As we death even in Odyn and helyas case was extremely new and they had to research it.

Your wording gave the picture you did as beating sargeras as planets size titan in legiona and lastly power growth most likely slowed down alot in wod.

Because problem there was high elves and kirin tor would have most likely noticed it.

We have no race like written in the game if you are not talking about code itself as code is sometimes just placeholder and elune is worshipped on other worlds besides azeroth we haven't see any other creatures which have had being worshipped on other worlds and as it was seperated by blizzard we have to take their word for it that titans are just godlike not gods and gods are divine beings in wow universe. Why are you arguing against blizzard?

Druids being particularly weak to nightmare corruption is pretty telling on itself why the nightmare particularly strong against life and lasly that more of good question which we don't have answer to yet

That just shows blood magic has possible origins in arcane not life or death as flesh shaping uses as its fuel anima "Anima is life energy harnessed and condensed into liquid form.[2]". You haven't bothered send anyquotes from tomb of sargeras audio book transcripes why should I send any to you again as it takes enough time to asnwer you? Not at all minor and I haven't made such mistakes again most of my "mistakes" have being you need google translate all this and can't undestand it. Give me a quote from this from medivh as you even have to use translators so I need to context here like you do all time.

Have you read dragonlance series? if you have then you know how bullshit strong he writes his "super strong secondary characters" and on tidestone "In a frightening display of arcane power Azshara remotely destroyed the Tidestone, releasing a wave of dark energy over all of Azsuna[5]" we have never seen anyone remotely being able to use powers of pillars of creation and we have no incations that its azsharas and tidestone combined power just azsharas power.

Scourge would stayed there and started roaming around mindlessly as we have seeing in the past as sometimes they are just left in the area and you are here attacking then some sources I use which haven't being retconned just most likely forgotten and they had argent dawn at that point. Spoiled? were the heck did that come from and in literature more like 50% of the time !This horrific place houses the most vile and irredeemable souls in existence—ones deemed by the Arbiter to represent a threat to the Shadowlands if left free." "deemed by tha arbiter ro represent thrat to shadowland" meaning if arbiters thinks you are dangerous to the shadowlands without any bad deeds it means of to the maw.

As I said we saw similiar thing in KJ fight with kalecgos so thats not an excuse and they were cut content as such if we start by cut content we have take all cut content of all the expansions as canon and it was just mentioned in the cutcontent that they were blessed by her powers not anywere else so again it didn't happen at all and again they were not dragon they were drakes as they used a drakes model.

Possible yeah and the map just supports its possibility.

Object of far greater mass could use just his mass and increased speed to negate objects of far less mass and similiar or even much faster speeds force and by that it would have thrown grommash towards canyon wall and far better physically wouldn't mean shit if object which comperably weighted more like car hit strong and stonger individual if they only weigh couldn't compete and seeing how huge effect mannoroth has when he moves it and comparing it to when grommash moves their mass isn't comperable. he tookk 2 steppes which in many fighting styles is important in defensive positions and yeha chronicles said he didn't expect a blow and that he was suprised.

They are not the same thing. They have lost their minds due to their addiction. They are just terrible drug addicts. In my case, these are bodies raised by Life. Krasus also raised the corpse of a goblin in the War of the Ancients.

Good. Great, actually. Are you with such zeal to prove that he uses both Filth and Void, but are not ready to accept the fact that Ra uses Blood? What? Do we only see demons? We see a bunch of Void creatures in front of the boss.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Void_Wyrm
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Void_Lord
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Void_Seeker
And why, then, did they not abandon the case after investigating?

Sorry what? When did we defeat Sargeras in live action?

They did not notice the cult of the damned under their very noses.

If there is no clear definition, then what prevents me from calling the Titans gods? https://wow.gamepedia.com/God
The Titans fall under this definition and they are much stronger than all the others who were called Gods (we do not know the power of Elune). As I said, you just find fault with the words because you have no arguments and you at least win some argument. It looks pathetic, to be honest.

Again. Sylvanas and the undead fell asleep from the Nightmare. I know full well that druids are especially vulnerable to the Nightmare. You still haven't explained why Elune's Tear is Life, and not Arcane or Light (given the connection with the Naaru)? You just started talking about the Nightmare and didn't give any proof.

Didn't Blizzard already tell us that the two anima are connected? That is, the anima mogu in any case is associated with Death. Most of your mistakes lie in the fact that you state some kind of stupidity and do not give any evidence. Remember we argued with you that the demons knew how to invade the Elemental Plan because the shaman there fought with a powerful demon, they studied Azeroth for these 10 thousand years, and when I asked you for proof, you did not give anything and in the end I myself found this quest from the shaman campaign chain and it turned out that this demon just accidentally fell there during the battle at the Maelstrom, like the shaman? Should I recall other cases from our disputes? I must remember how often I had to give you links to the Chronicle so that you finally read what is written there? Again. You said Fel was. Than? Void? An even more powerful Fel? As always, you just said something and didn't give any proofs, so I'm waiting for a quote so I can explain to you what that means. It was in The Last Guardian. Once again, Thrall saw the subordinate elemental spirits in Jaina's spell in Tides of War.

No, I haven't read it. I only read his series on Sin War in the Diablo universe. And what does this have to do with it? Are you trying to prove to me that the War of the Ancients is non-canon because you don't like Knaak? Great argument, Metzen would be proud of you. Yes, she split it, what does it have to do with it? So you're saying that Azshara did it all herself? This is what Neptulon's servants say
Hydraxis
Greetings mortal. The naga have committed a grand crime against the power of my master, Neptulon.

The magic of the Tidestone is the magic of titans. Even now, that ancient power holds him at bay just as it holds back the sea. However, it cannot hold back his justice.

Will you join me in quelling these naga for their defiance of the great Neptulon?

Could you please put commas? It's really hard to read. As I said, Sylvanas could have killed Arthas in the beginning, but she didn’t because of her pride, because she wanted to hear songs about herself. And she treated her subordinates like arrows in a quiver. Yes, an incredibly nice lady. Argent Dawn? How do you know that they had the strength for this? I also repeat. Kill these peasants? Okay, that's okay. But experiment with them? To test the plague on them? This is too cruel. Yeah, just the bad guys go to Revendreth. Only those who cannot be corrected enter the Maw. I don’t think if you’re super-powerful and cool and in theory could be a danger to

the Shadowlands, but you’re very kind, noble and merciful, you will be sent to the Maw.

Once again, Kalecgos had a real mechanic in there with all these orbs (even if they weren't used to begin with). It was also stated in Chronicle 3 that the heroes actually couldn't even harm Kiljaeden until Anveena sacrificed with her. About Malygos it was said that the heroes defeated him. Cut content and cut quote are not the same thing. Most likely, Blizzard initially wanted to explain the victory of the heroes by the fact that they were helped by reinforced red dragons. This is not a particularly big detail compared to, for example, cut locations or quests. Yah? And which dragons in the game (other than the Aspects) use the DRAGON model and not the drake model? Even all the mounts are called just drakes.

So can you start to refute my arguments? Why are there no such powerful beings in the Emerald Dream? Why are there no inhabitants from other worlds? Why the Emerald Dream was ordered by one Freya, as opposed to the Shadowlands, ordered (and possibly created) by divine beings(First Ones)?

This is on condition that he would have hit the much more dexterous Grommash. Once again. We should be guided by Chronicle 3 where it says that Mannoroth DIDN'T expect Grommash to attack him.

[Orby]

Depends if the writers wanted her to or not. Power levels really don't exist in WoW. It's all based on the writers whims.

[Sagenod]

Absolutely. Bolvar was the Lich King for longer than Arthas was, there was nothing innately special about Arthas and there is no reason to presume that Bolvar would be less capable as the Lich King than Arthas was.

The entire point of Sylvanas being able to defeat the Lich King in one on one combat was to demonstrate just how powerful she has become since she joined 'the maw covenant' and to establish her as a threat even greater than Arthas was...and by implication, make us realise just what a threat the Jailer is if HE is stronger than her.

Keep in mind Frostmourne was a big piece of the Lich King's power.

[Terongor]

They are not the same thing. They have lost their minds due to their addiction. They are just terrible drug addicts. In my case, these are bodies raised by Life. Krasus also raised the corpse of a goblin in the War of the Ancients.

Good. Great, actually. Are you with such zeal to prove that he uses both Filth and Void, but are not ready to accept the fact that Ra uses Blood? What? Do we only see demons? We see a bunch of Void creatures in front of the boss.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Void_Wyrm
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Void_Lord
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Void_Seeker
And why, then, did they not abandon the case after investigating?

Sorry what? When did we defeat Sargeras in live action?

They did not notice the cult of the damned under their very noses.

If there is no clear definition, then what prevents me from calling the Titans gods? https://wow.gamepedia.com/God
The Titans fall under this definition and they are much stronger than all the others who were called Gods (we do not know the power of Elune). As I said, you just find fault with the words because you have no arguments and you at least win some argument. It looks pathetic, to be honest.

Again. Sylvanas and the undead fell asleep from the Nightmare. I know full well that druids are especially vulnerable to the Nightmare. You still haven't explained why Elune's Tear is Life, and not Arcane or Light (given the connection with the Naaru)? You just started talking about the Nightmare and didn't give any proof.

Didn't Blizzard already tell us that the two anima are connected? That is, the anima mogu in any case is associated with Death. Most of your mistakes lie in the fact that you state some kind of stupidity and do not give any evidence. Remember we argued with you that the demons knew how to invade the Elemental Plan because the shaman there fought with a powerful demon, they studied Azeroth for these 10 thousand years, and when I asked you for proof, you did not give anything and in the end I myself found this quest from the shaman campaign chain and it turned out that this demon just accidentally fell there during the battle at the Maelstrom, like the shaman? Should I recall other cases from our disputes? I must remember how often I had to give you links to the Chronicle so that you finally read what is written there? Again. You said Fel was. Than? Void? An even more powerful Fel? As always, you just said something and didn't give any proofs, so I'm waiting for a quote so I can explain to you what that means. It was in The Last Guardian. Once again, Thrall saw the subordinate elemental spirits in Jaina's spell in Tides of War.

No, I haven't read it. I only read his series on Sin War in the Diablo universe. And what does this have to do with it? Are you trying to prove to me that the War of the Ancients is non-canon because you don't like Knaak? Great argument, Metzen would be proud of you. Yes, she split it, what does it have to do with it? So you're saying that Azshara did it all herself? This is what Neptulon's servants say
Hydraxis
Greetings mortal. The naga have committed a grand crime against the power of my master, Neptulon.

The magic of the Tidestone is the magic of titans. Even now, that ancient power holds him at bay just as it holds back the sea. However, it cannot hold back his justice.

Will you join me in quelling these naga for their defiance of the great Neptulon?

Could you please put commas? It's really hard to read. As I said, Sylvanas could have killed Arthas in the beginning, but she didn’t because of her pride, because she wanted to hear songs about herself. And she treated her subordinates like arrows in a quiver. Yes, an incredibly nice lady. Argent Dawn? How do you know that they had the strength for this? I also repeat. Kill these peasants? Okay, that's okay. But experiment with them? To test the plague on them? This is too cruel. Yeah, just the bad guys go to Revendreth. Only those who cannot be corrected enter the Maw. I don’t think if you’re super-powerful and cool and in theory could be a danger to

the Shadowlands, but you’re very kind, noble and merciful, you will be sent to the Maw.

Once again, Kalecgos had a real mechanic in there with all these orbs (even if they weren't used to begin with). It was also stated in Chronicle 3 that the heroes actually couldn't even harm Kiljaeden until Anveena sacrificed with her. About Malygos it was said that the heroes defeated him. Cut content and cut quote are not the same thing. Most likely, Blizzard initially wanted to explain the victory of the heroes by the fact that they were helped by reinforced red dragons. This is not a particularly big detail compared to, for example, cut locations or quests. Yah? And which dragons in the game (other than the Aspects) use the DRAGON model and not the drake model? Even all the mounts are called just drakes.

So can you start to refute my arguments? Why are there no such powerful beings in the Emerald Dream? Why are there no inhabitants from other worlds? Why the Emerald Dream was ordered by one Freya, as opposed to the Shadowlands, ordered (and possibly created) by divine beings(First Ones)?

This is on condition that he would have hit the much more dexterous Grommash. Once again. We should be guided by Chronicle 3 where it says that Mannoroth DIDN'T expect Grommash to attack him.

You said earlier they acted liked zombies the nature possesed guys from draenor for being undeads but same could be said about those two meaning.

And we see demons and warlocks both summon void creatures again showing again it still more towards fel

Thats again a fansite definition of a god so not official.

For starters elunes tear is easily corrupted by the nightmare showing same weakness towards the Nightmare as all users life or life creatures have.

They said its somehow connected its still not clear how it is connected.

I'm not saying its uncannon just that characters do feats in his books that are not even the main character that is far reach for their power level.

Thats normal military protocol for example it was seeing as dishonorable and even monstrous acts(in history) to attack unprepared enemy and treating your soldiers and subordinates as pawns again is normal doesn't make her good nor bad again just a standard General. Cruel yeah but again but not evil. Blizzard again haven't said anything about that only dangerous and irredeemable souls go there what you are saying is mental gymnastics and trying to add more meaning to those words.

Seeing how ravendreth treat Garrosh as a workhorse and doesn't let him to go forward or send him into the maw shows there isn't any morality on this on just whats best for Shadowlands.

True on KJ but still doesn't prove that Alex helped us personally and there are quite alot of dragons in wow who use dragon models for example most named dragons, wowhead has npcs called blue dragon, red dragon, bronze dragon etc.

Saying its a possibly doesn't mean anything more as we need more data until we have statement from blizz saying its not a possibly until then its a poasibility.

And expecting an attack is an consius action while reflex are unconssious actions and veterans have had unconsius actions to defend themselfs from attacks and mannoroth has so much military experience he is an veteran.

[darkoms]

You said earlier they acted liked zombies the nature possesed guys from draenor for being undeads but same could be said about those two meaning.

And we see demons and warlocks both summon void creatures again showing again it still more towards fel

Thats again a fansite definition of a god so not official.

For starters elunes tear is easily corrupted by the nightmare showing same weakness towards the Nightmare as all users life or life creatures have.

They said its somehow connected its still not clear how it is connected.

I'm not saying its uncannon just that characters do feats in his books that are not even the main character that is far reach for their power level.

Thats normal military protocol for example it was seeing as dishonorable and even monstrous acts(in history) to attack unprepared enemy and treating your soldiers and subordinates as pawns again is normal doesn't make her good nor bad again just a standard General. Cruel yeah but again but not evil. Blizzard again haven't said anything about that only dangerous and irredeemable souls go there what you are saying is mental gymnastics and trying to add more meaning to those words.

Seeing how ravendreth treat Garrosh as a workhorse and doesn't let him to go forward or send him into the maw shows there isn't any morality on this on just whats best for Shadowlands.

True on KJ but still doesn't prove that Alex helped us personally and there are quite alot of dragons in wow who use dragon models for example most named dragons, wowhead has npcs called blue dragon, red dragon, bronze dragon etc.

Saying its a possibly doesn't mean anything more as we need more data until we have statement from blizz saying its not a possibly until then its a poasibility.

And expecting an attack is an consius action while reflex are unconssious actions and veterans have had unconsius actions to defend themselfs from attacks and mannoroth has so much military experience he is an veteran.

They acted like zombies and they are literally dead. That's better?

Again. Warlocks use BOTH THE FEL AND THE Void. You are trying to prove to me that this guy uses ONLY fel and with the help of FEL summons FEL creatures. You are entangled in your lies.

So give me the official definition of God in WOV.

Azshara easily shattered the Pillar of Creation. So the Pillars of Creation are vulnerable to Arcane? And I'm still waiting how the LIFE artifact was able to activate the LIGHT artifact?

I already forgot why we argue about anime, please remind me.

How did you determine what is the unattainable level of power for the Aspects? How did you decide that they shouldn't necessarily be stronger than Archimonde?

This is what makes her bad. It's one thing when you have to send them to death with a heavy heart, and another when you absolutely don't care that they will die. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q67Upjq7H8
19 40
Enjoy. Although this has since been changed and now all souls have a chance at redemption in Revendreth.

What makes you even think that Garrosh's sins were atoned for? Kael'thas died much earlier and is still in Revendreth.

You can believe what you want. Also, her unused line suggests that she has blessed her dragons for this battle. What's the difference? I would be grateful if you threw me two different NPCs, a drake and a dragon.

Then don't start an argument at all if you can't provide evidence. But yes, we need more information on the Emerald Dream and its connection to Ardenweald.

How did you define Mannoroth's military experience? I mean, yes, he has fought countless wars, but how did you determine that there were warriors powerful enough on other planets for Mannoroth to have this reflex? Remember that he is a powerful enough demon and can easily kill whoever attacks him without any fight.

[loras]

Pumped up on on death steroids, would she have had just as easy of a time against Arthas as she did with Bolvar and just played around with him? What do you think?

Defeated? Probably, yeah.
As easily?
Depends on whether death's power would even harm her, as most of Arthas' power was very death themed and Bolvar conspicuously avoided using that sort of power against her to the point of preferring to throw rocks at her.

If she's indeed death immune she would at least have quite an ace up her sleeve which she didn't have against Bolvar - the element of surprise.
Arthas would have had more and more capable minions to defend him, but that would have also given more options for betrayal.

Bolvar had only a horde of zombies, those might not be worthwhile to turn for the banshee queen, but imagine Sylvanas "freeing" i.e. Sindragosa versus the Lich King?
Or Saurfang? The blood court? She wouldn't even need to mind control them, they would turn against the Lich King on their own and aid her.

So it's not so clear to me if she'd have any more trouble with Arthas than with Bolvar (though i do think it would be more spectacular, heh).

[Pury]

Sylvanas is pumped with Jailer's power.
Arthas Lich King was Jailer's hand puppet.
They wouldn't fight.
Sylvanas attacked Bolvar, because he constantly resisted and was not under Jailers control. And this is also why he was not really strong. Just some old helmet power leftovers, without ongoing Death Realm connection.