Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Elegiac]

Why is it even allowed to do that? To give them such a choice?

Has to do with the way law enforcement is set up in the US. The people that handle investigations into police misconduct are District Attorneys. Guess who also works closely with the same police departments on a daily basis?

A lot of the problems with law enforcement are ones of culture, rather than specific policy.

[Mayhem]

Okay so then what is the objective criteria for deeming that a system is racist? If it's when "half of the people are racist" as you say then you need to go out and get that evidence to confirm it is true. The large majority of people in the LE system are not racist or problematic at all and the onus is on you to prove there needs to be systematic change.

Objective criteria that a system is racist would be if the non-racists save the racists from being charged.

Also I don't know if it is already mentioned in the thread, the 4 officers that were involved have been fired but not charged.

[LilSaihah]

Yep. To be a brutal pig.

What is it with you people and trying to rationalise away pretty clear cut instances of this?

...Uhhh, is that comment at me?

I'm saying there doesn't seem to be a good reason to kneel on someone's neck lol. If you want to keep someone pinned, you can do it by pinning their shoulder. Book the cunt.

[Elegiac]

...Uhhh, is that comment at me?

I'm saying there doesn't seem to be a good reason to kneel on someone's neck lol. If you want to keep someone pinned, you can do it by pinning their shoulder. Book the cunt.

No no, at the police! The brutality is intentional, is my meaning.

But the point about rationalisation still stands generally. We have a serious problem with people trying to explain away these instances and mire the discussion in things like bone density when the reality is that the system of law enforcement in the United States needs reconstruction.

[Volatilis]

Im normally on polices side but there is no need to be on his neck when you have TWO officers there.

"Sweet bro you just stand there and watch me, its all good ive got my knee on his neck hes not going anywhere, enjoy the view I guess?"

Like wtf.

Completely reckless. Hopefully the "cop" does get charged.

[PACOX]

Seems like the country couldn't wait to get outside to go back to killing black people.

[Ihavewaffles]

Seems like the country couldn't wait to get outside to go back to killing black people.

Forbidden topic this is

[Gestopft]

Forbidden topic this is

We’ve spend the last near 250 years avoiding the discussion; what’s another generation or five.

Oh, you meant in this forum.

[Flarelaine]

Manslaughter isn't murder.

Legally isn't. One might argue it still is from a moral/ethical viewpoint.

[InDemand]

It's a good thing somebody was filming this, otherwise the police who dished out this brutality could have made up reasons why the victim actually died. Sickening what is going on in the us.

[Kumorii]

Legally isn't. One might argue it still is from a moral/ethical viewpoint.

Curious what that argument would be... I feel intent heavily influences morals, more so than the result.

On topic: US police is a joke, what else is new?

[Strawberry]

Huh? In Europe not being part of the majority ethnicity can be a problem, they don't care if it's other white people if they're not part of the majority ethnicity. Just look at how East Europeans are treated in Western & Northern Europe.

I'm eastern European living in west Europe (well, north west to be more exact) and people don't treat me with disrespect.
But I've seen west Europeans treat other west Europeans like shit, so my suggestion is not to let people treat you like shit, it doesn't matter what skin you are.

For example, if a black man put on one of those Muslim dresses on he's not going to get much respect.
If I do it, I'm going to be treated equally, perhaps even worse because people would think wtf is that white man doing.

In western Europe, generally, you're judged not by your skin, but by your social status.

[Paranoid Android]

https://m.startribune.com/thousands-...ath/570786992/

People gather in protest of this murder, cops roll up with tear gas, flashbangs, and rubber bullets.

Funny how they didn't do that when it was white guys in 3rd rate spec ops cosplay.

Yeah. In my home city where this happening.

I mean I want this thread to stay focused, since we need this discussion. Yet, it is hard to wonder if these protesters showed up in body armor and high capacity, semi-auto weapons.

[Warning]

That other cop standing by like a coward looking awkwardly and clearly realizing that what is going on is not quite right but still defending his "side" is exactly how I picture Trump supporting "centrists" defending his bullshit on a daily basis. Wir haben es nicht gewußt!

[Benggaul]

Would you rush an armed group of men?

Because most people aren't actively suicidal?

You're not going to be arrested for doing so. You're going to get shot for doing so. And the officer is probably gonna get his shooting of you approved after the fact as a justified action, so you end up dying and probably don't even manage to help the victim on the ground.

If the USA wasn't a nation where a black person moving towards a cop didn't trigger a "THEY COMIN' RIGHT FOR US" kneejerk shooting response, your position might make sense. But the USA is that kind of nation, and that this event occurred there just underscores that.

I would and have done. 20 years ago I was walking home and saw a cop beating the shit out of a homeless guy with his stick just inside the entrance to an alley while his partner stood there much like this situation. I jogged over with my hands clearly raised and visibly empty and yelled at him to stop. There were a few bystanders just watching because that's what people do, but this was before mobile phones were really a thing so there wasn't even any filming being done...just watching.

I didn't have to push the guy off then, but I got their attention and he stopped beating on the dude to yell at me to get the fuck out of there, which I didn't do because I assumed he'd just start knocking the homeless guy around again. But me running in there and yelling was at least enough to get other people to start yelling at them to stop and eventually they picked up the other guy--who was already handcuffed--and put him in the back of their cruiser and drove off. I probably didn't save him from further hardships, but I at least ensured he wasn't going to be beaten to death in an alley.

I would not have been able to live with myself if I had just passed by and let them keep doing this then and I wouldn't just stand and let it happen now. They're not going to open fire on a white guy in broad daylight with hands raised and empty. Tase me, likely. Arrested for obstructing them in their duty also likely, as well as assault on a police officer if I had actually touched one of them to get them to stop. But if I'm going to have to own up to "white privilege" I'm at least going to do some good with it. Mr. Floyd might still be alive if someone else there had also done so.

[Muzjhath]

You won't even say what the systemic solutions are for law enforcement.

To start with. Make it a requirement to start with a 5 semester college level education. In law and presedures needed along with physical training.
Instead of maybe 6 weeks.

[Orange Joe]

To take it in another direction I haven't seen mentioned (since it should go without saying that pending any wildly changing evidence, the cop should go to jail ), I wonder if the size of the man (who got killed) is related to the excessive use of force, both in this particular case and in others. According to the broader statistics, there's only a bias in terms of police use of aggression towards black men (not black women, and not through shooting). This is consistent with the premise that black men are physically larger and have larger bone and muscle mass (this data may be outdated and could be proven wrong, but is fairly obvious in this case). If this is true, the obvious solution here is to arm police with tazers isn't it? This would help to deter situations like this.

If 4 cops can't subdue and handcuff 1 man. They need to be retrained.

[Machismo]

I would and have done. 20 years ago I was walking home and saw a cop beating the shit out of a homeless guy with his stick just inside the entrance to an alley while his partner stood there much like this situation. I jogged over with my hands clearly raised and visibly empty and yelled at him to stop. There were a few bystanders just watching because that's what people do, but this was before mobile phones were really a thing so there wasn't even any filming being done...just watching.

I didn't have to push the guy off then, but I got their attention and he stopped beating on the dude to yell at me to get the fuck out of there, which I didn't do because I assumed he'd just start knocking the homeless guy around again. But me running in there and yelling was at least enough to get other people to start yelling at them to stop and eventually they picked up the other guy--who was already handcuffed--and put him in the back of their cruiser and drove off. I probably didn't save him from further hardships, but I at least ensured he wasn't going to be beaten to death in an alley.

I would not have been able to live with myself if I had just passed by and let them keep doing this then and I wouldn't just stand and let it happen now. They're not going to open fire on a white guy in broad daylight with hands raised and empty. Tase me, likely. Arrested for obstructing them in their duty also likely, as well as assault on a police officer if I had actually touched one of them to get them to stop. But if I'm going to have to own up to "white privilege" I'm at least going to do some good with it. Mr. Floyd might still be alive if someone else there had also done so.

People were yelling to stop. People were close, and screaming at them to stop.

This is a high-pressure situation, and these cops were clearly not being responsible. I don't blame anyone for not charging in to confront cops who clearly have no problem killing someone. What you were on that one night, was a singular witness.

If you had tried to intervene physically (and in an aggressive fashion as you called for), then they could have easily killed you, and not only that, such a use of force would have easily been justified.

[Orange Joe]

I'm really confused, is there any particular reason to actually kneel on the neck as opposed to the shoulder?

To cut off air supply. That is the exact and only reason you apply pressure to the neck.

[Machismo]

If 4 cops can't subdue and handcuff 1 man. They need to be retrained.

It didn't take four cops to subdue him, it took one cop. He stood up, and was cuffed without incident. There's a video of the actual arrest.

- - - Updated - - -

To take it in another direction I haven't seen mentioned (since it should go without saying that pending any wildly changing evidence, the cop should go to jail ), I wonder if the size of the man (who got killed) is related to the excessive use of force, both in this particular case and in others. According to the broader statistics, there's only a bias in terms of police use of aggression towards black men (not black women, and not through shooting). This is consistent with the premise that black men are physically larger and have larger bone and muscle mass (this data may be outdated and could be proven wrong, but is fairly obvious in this case). If this is true, the obvious solution here is to arm police with tazers isn't it? This would help to deter situations like this.

They arrested him without incident. There's video of the actual arrest, and it lasted about 50 secs, total. A single officer was able to cuff him, and there was only a short conversation beforehand.