Unpopular opinion: 10 man raids should make a return in Shadowlands.

[Relapses]

All of nyalotha bosses mythic would be doable with 10 man assuming lower boss hp and bit less damage on raid.

There are plenty of mechanics that are trivialized by having fewer people in the raid. In fact, that was the crux of the difficulty disparity between 10 and 25M Heroic. To pretend that making 10M raiding viable again is as simple as "tuning the bosses to do less damage" is incredibly disingenuous.

[TOM_RUS]

Competitive 10 man should have never been removed to begin with. That was biggest mistake on Blizzard's end.

[Relapses]

Competitive 10 man should have never been removed to begin with. That was biggest mistake on Blizzard's end.

That word doesn't mean what you think it means.

[kaminaris]

There are plenty of mechanics that are trivialized by having fewer people in the raid. In fact, that was the crux of the difficulty disparity between 10 and 25M Heroic. To pretend that making 10M raiding viable again is as simple as "tuning the bosses to do less damage" is incredibly disingenuous.

That is another example of just bad boss design when only difficulty is spreading people.
Like ilgynoth. That's like the only difficult thing there.

Because why design cool fights like xanesh when you can just slap small fight arena and call it a day?

[cparle87]

10 mans left. It's gone. Neither normal nor heroic doesn't matter anymore.

You say it's gone. I reply it's not with irrefutable fact. So you move the goalposts and say that I should've known you meant only for the highest difficulty.

[Clash the DK]

Socially, there is a big difference between a 10 and 20 person raiding guild. You just can't form the same bonds with so many people in a raid atmosphere.

My old guild which I raided with for years did 10 man heroic when that was the highest level. The implementation of Mythic raiding broke everything. We never liked trying to sustain the larger roster and all that goes into that. But, we were too competitive to just run Heroic when there was another level. It eventually lead to most of my guild friends leaving the game which is really unfortunate.

So yeah, I wish they would make a change. Flex 10-15 always made the most sense to me. The difference between 10 and 20+ always presented too many variables. But 10-15 or even 12-15 could be balanced while allowing some flexibility even for the highest end raiders. Maybe it would save the game long term.

[Irian]

I would actually start raiding again if 10m came back.

I used to be one of those weirdos who did exclusive 10m raiding in wrath before it was really a good idea at all. I just love the small group environment, and 10 people always felt like the perfect number for a social experience.

[kaminaris]

You say it's gone. I reply it's not with irrefutable fact. So you move the goalposts and say that I should've known you meant only for the highest difficulty.

Because it's gone, more than ever since dungeons provide better gear. Have you seen 10 man guilds anywhere? Because I haven't.

[Kalisandra]

10s would be fine if TBC Kara-like raids were to make a reappearance. Raids designed for 10 and only 10. It gets too tricky to balance when the same content is for 10 and 25, numerous examples have already been stated.

They could probably design a 10-man raid tuned reasonably tightly, but not so tightly you had to follow the meta, with a flex 9-15 man version tuned lower. However even then if the fixed size version was to challenge good heroic and mythic raiders at all, it would have a meta and casuals not playing to the meta wouldn't be able to do it, producing the usual toxicity around being forced to follow a meta to do content that's otherwise within someone's (or some guild's) skill level.

It's just not worth Blizzard's time and resources, I think.

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I'd actually raid again if 10m was a competitive bracket. Cata was my favorite time raiding even though the expansion was meh, and it was directly because I played with 9 of my close friends. It's a lot harder to get 20 people that vibe together well.

Personally, I think they should not balance both 10m and 20m but remove 20m all together and commit to 10m entirely. That's probably an actual unpopular opinion though.

I really hated Cata's raiding set up. The early raids were okay, and Firelands was excellent. But having 10 and 25s on the same lockouts was awful. I killed pugging on my server, and a whole server community died with it. LFR just made sure it never recovered.

Also, it meant you had this whole thing where some bosses you really wanted to find a 25-man raid to talk your way into, because the 10-man version was a roadblock. 25-man raids probably did this the other way too. Either way, that's not a good thing to be encouraging.

The current setup is as good as it's ever been, though I think normal and heroic could be tuned up a bit, or normal even removed. The biggest problem is that four raid levels per patch means loot inflates far too fast, and that either the raids can't scale too hard (aside from mythic) to allow people in last tier gear to walk into them, or that every tier forces everyone to re-gear before they even set foot in a raid, and that's bonkers.

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I would actually start raiding again if 10m came back.

I used to be one of those weirdos who did exclusive 10m raiding in wrath before it was really a good idea at all. I just love the small group environment, and 10 people always felt like the perfect number for a social experience.

I did too, and our guild was very highly ranked as an exclusive 10-man (largely because so far guilds were). However, even in LK some fights were harder in 10 than in 25 because of the lack of room for error, etc., and most 25-man fights just ramped up the damage to compensate for having more warm bodies. However, if they'd tried to tune those fights up to 25H levels most of them at 10-man would've been beaten by following a meta, and just not bringing the weaker specs, because there's no room on a truly hard fight with only 10 people to carry anyone at all.

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Because it's gone, more than ever since dungeons provide better gear. Have you seen 10 man guilds anywhere? Because I haven't.

I'm in a 10-18 man guild. Would we want strict 10-man raids any more? Hell, no.

[Lolites]

Less of a meta presence (smaller groups = more of each class or spec will be taken)

opinions aside, this is completely untrue, smaller group would actualy lead to tighter meta...
in bigger group you actualy have a more wiggle room as 1% less DPS (for the simplicity stick to dps) for one of 15 DPS members is far less impactful than 1% less DPS for one of 6 ...

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Unpopular?

It is a popular opinion and one of the major reasons why WoW lost 8 million subs.

so you think bcs the half-milion (and i think im generous here) of players that do mythic raids while they are current couldnt compose smaller group, so 8 milions people, most of which never set foot in current mythic raid, left? like... rly? you truly believe that?

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This is how I feel about it. 10-man raiding in Cata was a total blast, small group, friends and doing high-end content. I sincerely do not understand the need of making mythic a 20-man system. Just put it at 10 and tune it for that. Guilds with 20+ people can perfectly split into 2 raids of 10.

"perfectly"... sure...
split a raid with 2tanks 3healers nd 15 dps into two groups that have 2 tanks, 2 healers and 6dps each, how many people will have to change their prefered spec or be replaced? 3 at least? sooo "perfectly" is far from truth...

[Hyeonh]

A real controversial one is bringing back 40 mans. Kinda miss how epic things were when a large number of players gather but that was also a logistical nightmare for guilds.

[Azerate]

They don't need to make a return, because they are already in the game. You can raid with 10 mates on both normal and heroic.

10 man mythic specifically though? Don't see the point. The highest difficulty being fixed is the best way to do it I think cause you avoid any kind of balance problems.

[I Push Buttons]

I'd actually raid again if 10m was a competitive bracket. Cata was my favorite time raiding even though the expansion was meh, and it was directly because I played with 9 of my close friends. It's a lot harder to get 20 people that vibe together well.

Personally, I think they should not balance both 10m and 20m but remove 20m all together and commit to 10m entirely. That's probably an actual unpopular opinion though.

I agree completely.

I started playing WoW around the end of WotLK, the first raid I ever did was 10 man ICC. I full cleared 10 man heroic through all of Cataclysm and MoP with the same guild. That guild died with 20 man mythic and I haven't raided since, hardly even play WoW anymore.

Its just not fun for me being a tiny cog in a giant raid group machine.

[Bibarel]

I think having multiple sizes for max difficulty was a pretty bad idea and current system is much better overall. I raided a lot in 10 mans during Cata and MOP and helped my raid leader with recruiting, it I must say that it was a lot pain)))

1. Most 10-mans had no bench, even if they were doing some heroic raiding. Situations when one of the people couldn't come were happening all the time, searching for players with no lockout to fill in the spare slot for heroic progression on Sunday/Monday/Tuesday night was a real nighmare even on my quite populated server. In 20mans people are more ok with being benched, it is part of the format, which makes raiding a lot more stable.
2. 10 mans had way less class diversity - you usually wanted a mage, a warlock (especially in MOP), holy pally (esp in Cata/early MOP), disc in mid-late MOP, etc. Some bosses were exremely punishing if you don't bring certain classes - like you wanted rogues and mages for the Spine, disc priests and protection paladins for Durumu. Many specs were in extremely low demand for 10-man raiding, mostly melee and hybrid ranged DPS. I think it is one of the reasons why Blizz made pretty complicated raid buff system in MOP and gave spell haste buff only to hybrid casters. Making a 10-man composition with all the buffs was actually a pain in the ass, I think there was a website where you could drag different specs into a table and check which buffs you are missing. In contrary, current 20mans allow for a lot more class diversity simply because there are a lot more slots and you have enough room for all the utility you want.
3. Obvious balancing issues, limitations in raid boss designs and permanent argument 10vs25.
4. I think that 10 mans actually had less social bonding. Making a new raiding team was fairly easy, which meant that new guilds/raid teams were created left and right, but many of them were also dying very quickly. Leaving your current raid and setting up your own was a pretty common thing. Once again, I feel that current system is more stable in that regard. Raiding is also a social experience, larger guilds/rosters cater to that more.

Yes, 10-mans were way more accessible, sometimes had more friendly and casual atmosphere (not always, though) and had less requirements for the PCs, which also could be a factor for some players. I think current options with casual 10-man and Myhic+ with scaling difficulty provide decent content for small groups. In SL we will also have Torghast.

I also think that "cozy/friendly atmosphere" thing depends a lot on the particular people you are playing with, not just on raid-size. My best memories in terms of social inteaction actually come from 25s back in Wotlk

[Kalisandra]

A real controversial one is bringing back 40 mans. Kinda miss how epic things were when a large number of players gather but that was also a logistical nightmare for guilds.

I know what you mean. It felt like a real army going in for a serious fight. OTOH, it also felt like an exercise in cat-herding and more time was often wasted getting enough people in raid, in the zone, at the keyboard, and actually moving in the right direction than was ever spent fighting bosses.

[Saltysquidoon]

1. Most 10-mans had no bench, even if they were doing some heroic raiding. Situations when one of the people couldn't come were happening all the time, searching for players with no lockout to fill in the spare slot for heroic progression on Sunday/Monday/Tuesday night was a real nighmare even on my quite populated server. In 20mans people are more ok with being benched, it is part of the format, which makes raiding a lot more stable.
2. 10 mans had way less class diversity - you usually wanted a mage, a warlock (especially in MOP), holy pally (esp in Cata/early MOP), disc in mid-late MOP, etc. Some bosses were exremely punishing if you don't bring certain classes - like you wanted rogues and mages for the Spine, disc priests and protection paladins for Durumu. Many specs were in extremely low demand for 10-man raiding, mostly melee and hybrid ranged DPS. I think it is one of the reasons why Blizz made pretty complicated raid buff system in MOP and gave spell haste buff only to hybrid casters. Making a 10-man composition with all the buffs was actually a pain in the ass, I think there was a website where you could drag different specs into a table and check which buffs you are missing. In contrary, current 20mans allow for a lot more class diversity simply because there are a lot more slots and you have enough room for all the utility you want.
3. Obvious balancing issues, limitations in raid boss designs and permanent argument 10vs25.
4. I think that 10 mans actually had less social bonding. Making a new raiding team was fairly easy, which meant that new guilds/raid teams were created left and right, but many of them were also dying very quickly. Leaving your current raid and setting up your own was a pretty common thing. Once again, I feel that current system is more stable in that regard. Raiding is also a social experience, larger guilds/rosters cater to that more.

Noooooooo but my vague subjective nostalgia posting is more important than actual mechanical issues that existed. You can't just say things that are true. Muh casual atmosphere muh bros...

[Tipton]

Noooooooo but my vague subjective nostalgia posting is more important than actual mechanical issues that existed. You can't just say things that are true. Muh casual atmosphere muh bros...

To true.

Cataclysm was the great Guild die off. It went like this for the majority of social guilds.
Step 1. 25 man guilds - picked their best 10 players to get a short term progression boosts.
Step 2. These 10 man guilds were less resilient to loosing players and eventually folded as soon as they hit a minor issue.
Guilds were in a race to the bottom, and very few survived.

As Blizzard themselves have said, the 10 man changes they made killed the majority of Social Raiding guilds.

[I Push Buttons]

To true.

Cataclysm was the great Guild die off. It went like this for the majority of social guilds.
Step 1. 25 man guilds - picked their best 10 players to get a short term progression boosts.
Step 2. These 10 man guilds were less resilient to loosing players and eventually folded as soon as they hit a minor issue.
Guilds were in a race to the bottom, and very few survived.

As Blizzard themselves have said, the 10 man changes they made killed the majority of Social Raiding guilds.

The stats don't seem to support that, raid participation and clear rates were seemingly at their peak when 10 man was around.

Kil'jaeden (TBC):
- ~10 million subs.
- Unknown number of guilds raiding that tier.
- 377 guilds cleared while it was current content.

Lich King:
- ~11 million subs.
- ~60000 25 man guilds and ~85000 10 man guilds with at least some raid progress that tier.
- 1101 guilds cleared heroic ICC in 25 man, 5664 guilds cleared it in 10 man.

Deathwing:
- ~10 million subs by that point (?).
- Unknown number of guilds raiding Dragon Soul while it was current.
- 605 guilds cleared heroic Dragon Soul in 25 man, 2934 guilds cleared it in 10 man (this is only from a post I found four months after the release of the raid, no idea what the stats are after that, but presumably at least some additional guilds cleared it since it was 'current content' for a further six months after that point).

Can't find the stats for MoP's Siege of Orgrimmar, other than MMO-Champion's own 'armory statistics' articles, which were per character/account, not per guild.
- ~7 million subs (?).
- ~26% of accounts had at least one boss down in normal, ~10% of accounts had at least one boss down in heroic, .8% of accounts had cleared heroic Garrosh.

Blackhand stats (can't find stats for Hellfire Citadel/Archimonde):
- ~7 million subs (?).
- ~32000 guilds raiding that tier.
- 717 guilds cleared mythic Blackhand.

Kil'Jaedan (Legion):
- No idea on subs, no longer reporting them by that point.
- ~27000 guilds with at least one boss down in heroic, ~9000 guilds with at least one boss down in mythic that tier.
- 851 guilds cleared mythic Kil'Jaedan.

N'zoth (still months to go):
- No idea on subs.
- ~21500 guilds raiding this tier, ~16000 have at least one heroic boss down, ~7500 have at least one mythic boss down.
- 751 guilds have cleared mythic N'zoth (so far).

[kaminaris]

I'm in a 10-18 man guild. Would we want strict 10-man raids any more? Hell, no.

It's not what you want, its about being gone, so you are in 18man guild, exact reason why 20 is dumb, because its hard to gather 22-24 people to fill in 20 man rooster.
And there are no 10-12 man guilds anymore.

SO. IT. IS. GONE.

I think I know how to solve it, just had this idea:

1. For first couple of weeks only 20 man mythic opened.
2. After that mythic-flex is being opened, with some drawbacks like not being able to get on hall of fame, less loot etc.
3. Staggered boss releases - open only those bosses that are know to have no problems with different raid size.
4. As the time goes on, open more bosses with tuning them to flex raid size.

Like making ilgnoth circles bigger.
Basically allow blizzard for a lot more time for tuning encounters for 10-20 mythic-flex staggering their releases.

It would not only allow to raid in less group size but also help those guilds that don't have big bench.

[Bibarel]

I get your point, but are sure it is correct to compare that way?
1. ICC was pretty much peak of popularity of both Wow and raiding, any expansion will be below its numbers. Also it was up for a year + players had 25% buff after it was up for 5-6 months or so.
2. Dragon Soul had insane debuff that made heroic way, way easier in the last few months. I don't think that any other raid was nerfed so much. Are you sure it was 10 mil subs? From what I remember, it was more like 7-8 mil, esp towards the end of 4.3. Maybe 10 mil was at the start of patch.
3. SoO was up for 14 months and I think that time subs dropped to like 5,5 mil or so. Maybe 7 mil was at the start.
4. Comparing 3 raids above to Blackhand and Tomb Kil'Jaeden is not really correct, because those 2 bosses were insanely difficult (Tomb had Avatar as well) and were current content for a relatively short time, like 5 months or so. Not for a year like final tiers. It will be more correct to compare them to bosses like Ragnaros and Lei Shen.
5. With intruduction of mythic, overall number of guilds clearing content went down, since number of players in roster went up from mostly ten to 20+, so no surprise there.
6. Wow has been losing players since its peak in Late Wrath/Early Cata all the time, with numbers going up with release of new expansion and then going down. This also impacts raiding very significantly. At least that's
7. Let's not forget that some people might stop raiding (esp higher difficulties) for other reasons - no time/desire for raids because of more IRL stuff, some switched to Mythic +. some play Classic, some can't raid because of low population on their realms, etc.

I am not saying that removal of 10 man heroic did not impact raid participation, of course it did. But there are many other things that prevent people from raiding or playing Wow, and introduction of 10-mans will not solve those issues. Right now I think Blizz needs to do something about raiding on low-pop and faction imbalanced realms, maybe open cross-server for Mythic earlier or something.