Forsaken Friends

[Super Dickmann]

I don't think it's soapboxing when there's definite love and care (ironically, and I'm willing to defend this idea) put into the Loyalist stuff. While they for sure didn't expect players to want to be as bad as they did, when they DID introduce the loyalist stuff it's actually written like someone gives a shit about you working with Sylvanas. No reward sucks but hell they absolutely could've ended it with her trying to kill you/Nathanos taking the shot and being your best buddy or something ridiculously soap opera like that.

Is it lower effort? Absolutely. But if they didn't care it wouldn't exist.

It exists due to outcry based around them repeating a story verbatim with some names changed and what nuance there was stripped out. The loyalist story exists for the same reason things like the Alliance calling out Vol'jin exists or the changes to Tyrande's Night Warrior debut. Or most recently the Forsaken text blurb stuff. The outcry was so pronounced that they felt putting in something would reduce the damage. But that the situation for the outcry exists at all shows the tonedeafness of the arrangement.

It is not made because Blizzard amends to the criticism being made. It's done as a frog-boiling exercise because they think that the issue is that people haven't been primed to accept the thing yet and they would given time. Put another way - it's not that no one wants the Forsaken to strive tirelessly protect the living, it's that they just haven't seen how it ties together yet. It's not that people don't want the Night Elves to be told they're in the wrong for wanting something more substantial after a genocide, it's that the particular encounter is badly done. Or it's not that people don't want to do Mists again and further neuter their faction of internal difference, it's that they just haven't caught on to Sylvanas not caring about the Horde yet.

But in all of these regards, the story intent was blisteringly obvious and called months if not years in advance. It's the direction that is inherently bad, even if the delivery was better. Even if they'd used profane rituals to raise Dostoevsky from the dead and hold him at gunpoint to write their material, it'd still be bad because what is being produced runs counter to purpose of the product.

As for gameplay unity still being on the cards. Possibly, but the Horde and Alliance are very strong branding identities and I don't see Blizzard ditching them even if it'd be a good step in the short-term. Especially not skipping out on doing so to build up hype when the expansion is fresh.

@Ardenaso

Them having said races in the first place makes them bad representatives of Lordaeron, since Lordaeron becomes secondary to their identity. They're fixing the Plaguelands because they're nice dudes more so than out of patriotism or connection to the land.
@Saltysquidoon

I'm of two minds on this. If they had gone ahead with gameplay unification I'd see it as being more of a concerted effort, but if they continue not to, as has been signalled thus far, then I'd chalk it up mostly to the writing department being given far too much leeway to moralize without necessarily reflecting on the product they intend to put out. Or in Afrasiabi's case, getting one over on Kosak for denying him this storyline back in Mists in favor of the Garrosh one.

[EbaumsTipster]

I'm of two minds on this. If they had gone ahead with gameplay unification I'd see it as being more of a concerted effort, but if they continue not to, as has been signalled thus far, then I'd chalk it up mostly to the writing department being given far too much leeway to moralize without necessarily reflecting on the product they intend to put out. Or in Afrasiabi's case, getting one over on Kosak for denying him this storyline back in Mists in favor of the Garrosh one.

I mean we have a dev on record post Blizzcon saying that they are experimenting with cross-faction gameplay in-house. Same dev even acknowledged that there's no gameplay change for "break the cycle" as of right now.

http://lorekeeper.net/en/world-of-wa...atrick-dawson/

[Ezgi] My question is not strictly 8.3 related but it has some kind of relation to it. As we know, from a lore point of view, that Horde and Alliance decided to “break the cycle.” But as we know from BlizzCon, there will be no faction merge or “Let’s be friends and play together!” situation. Do you have any plans to address this or maybe even ease the faction restrictions? Will we see any progress towards “breaking the cycle” in 8.3?

In terms of breaking the cycle, that was definitely a really powerful story moment for us. It doesn’t come with any gameplay changes as of now. In the future, you never know what is going to happen, where the story is going to take us, and what makes sense for the game.

To me as a Horde player, I actually still enjoy going out in the world PvP and smashing Alliance. That feels good! And I think there is a large part of our player base that still needs that, and we want to serve that too.

In terms of cross-faction though, we’ve experimented with that a little bit internally to see what it’d feel like. We don’t have anything to announce today but it’s a cool idea.

Pretty sure it's just straight up laziness, or marketing making them save it for 10.0, as the only reason that faction cross-play (not removing the factions or joining any faction, but just teaming up in groups) isn't in 9.0 (as of right now).

[Super Dickmann]

I mean we have a dev on record post Blizzcon saying that they are experimenting with cross-faction gameplay in-house. Same dev even acknowledged that there's no gameplay change for "break the cycle" as of right now.

I'd say it's because pulling the trigger would be pulling the plug on one of their most reliable branding elements and what has set apart their product for some time.

[Soon-TM]

Again, if the new design philosophy is that every race is going to be neutral-leaning-heroic by default, Blizzard isn't going to stop that solely for ONE race "for the integrity of the story".

Cata/Legion/BFA Forsaken are free to hang around... as enemy mobs or NPCs. They're either neutral-leaning-heroic or they are deleted.

Sounds like awfully boring storytelling and worldbuilding. Not that they have bothered a lot with either after MoP, anyway...

[Rendark]

They will have the Alliance now. Since the Forsaken were deleted from the game and replaced with a lazy goody good version.

[EbaumsTipster]

I'd say it's because pulling the trigger would be pulling the plug on one of their most reliable branding elements and what has set apart their product for some time.

Factions are the branding elements, not them being able to play/not play with one another. I don't think factions are EVER leaving nor are race restrictions in those factions.

This is all just talking about the two factions working together, optionally.

[Super Dickmann]

Factions are the branding elements, not them being able to play/not play with one another. I don't think factions are EVER leaving nor are race restrictions in those factions.

This is all just talking about the two factions working together, optionally.

My assumption pre-Shadowlands is that they'd allow cross-faction PvE in the newest content, but not backscale it to save themselves a headache. Given this interview, that might still be the idea, just a bit later.

[EbaumsTipster]

My assumption pre-Shadowlands is that they'd allow cross-faction PvE in the newest content, but not backscale it to save themselves a headache. Given this interview, that might still be the idea, just a bit later.

It could be patch content or could be a surprise addition to launch. Would be a sneaky and smart idea to NOT introduce it at Blizzcon where all the faction diehards were but reveal it later.

If they do some kind of old world revamp (to some extent) in 10.0 they could have it enabled only there and not in any of the other expansions (which are locked off by Chromie anyway) yeah.

[therealbowser]

Forsaken have always had friends with the blood elves. Just not as friendly now that the elven roots have turned bad, and now the blood elves have cooler friends that don't reek of death and are more.. elfy.

it's always been two sides to the Horde, the undead/elves, and the "savages". You can say Mag'har are teaming up with the goblins, but really, it's always been orcs/trolls/tauren/goblin. Of all types. I assume the vulpera will hang out more with them, too, especially because of the Zandalari.

But hey, I could always be wrong. Give it time, though.

- - - Updated - - -

My assumption pre-Shadowlands is that they'd allow cross-faction PvE in the newest content, but not backscale it to save themselves a headache. Given this interview, that might still be the idea, just a bit later.

I hope so, it may be the only thing that might save this Hordefest going on for raid content from being salvagable at this point.

But you know there will always be PvPers who try to misuse the story as a reason to go against this. I can only hope this passes to some degree, but I am not holding my breath.

[Super Dickmann]

It could be patch content or could be a surprise addition to launch. Would be a sneaky and smart idea to NOT introduce it at Blizzcon where all the faction diehards were but reveal it later.

If they do some kind of old world revamp (to some extent) in 10.0 they could have it enabled only there and not in any of the other expansions (which are locked off by Chromie anyway) yeah.

The chances of an old world revamp were already in pipe dream territory, but they're even fewer now that the Chromie leveling mechanic makes these places all the more irrelevant for new and old players alike. I'd say if there was a world revamp it'd be in the sense of a number of zones from a timeskipped Azeroth, rather than an overall change.
@realbowser

There are benefits to the change in terms of player activity, but I'm skeptical about the long term of it, since the factions as separate are core to the experience and inform a lot of what would then be legacy systems.

[EbaumsTipster]

I hope so, it may be the only thing that might save this Hordefest going on for raid content from being salvagable at this point.

But you know there will always be PvPers who try to misuse the story as a reason to go against this. I can only hope this passes to some degree, but I am not holding my breath.

Blizz does fuckall for PVP every expansion, that audience has to be tiny. Whenever Ion or a dev makes a comment on 'well we're doing this for pvp' 99% of the time it's likely just a convenient excuse.

[omeomorfismo]

I don't think it's soapboxing when there's definite love and care (ironically, and I'm willing to defend this idea) put into the Loyalist stuff. While they for sure didn't expect players to want to be as bad as they did, when they DID introduce the loyalist stuff it's actually written like someone gives a shit about you working with Sylvanas. No reward sucks but hell they absolutely could've ended it with her trying to kill you/Nathanos taking the shot and being your best buddy or something ridiculously soap opera like that.

Is it lower effort? Absolutely. But if they didn't care it wouldn't exist.

But no, the ending for that questline is relatively mature. And you can tell they had a great time letting you hogtie Eitrigg around, and the Sylvanas!Style warfront armors are really nice (as is the warfront arguably). So I doubt they were actually trying to make a LOVE WINS!!!!! political statement and more felt their hands were tied by the market.

Factions feels like they will always stick around even if they let factions team up. It's a brand thing, not an ideology/symbolism thing.

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Oh, and the only reason faction coop isn't in Shadowlands is because the devs are fucking lazy. Unless they announce it on the 9th: they DID say they were experimenting with it in January. They've hinted that "break the cycle" would actually be followed up later.

love? literally the first quest was panic damage control after the outrage they received from all the people that wont help the traitor. same the second one, that shitty quest with baine murdering an entire boat its something inqualificable. really, what they thought when doing that piece of shit? why they didnt simply cut the quest like the first?

only the 3° was somewhat good. with some custom texts like with the dark ranger in the underhold, eitrigg and the quest outside the walls...

[Raisei]

Well, that's exactly what Ms. Golden told us in her last opus magnum, aka BtS. Forsaken weren't evil, but just poor, loving souls oppressed by a caricature of police state led by Sylvanas. Now that they got rid of her (actually the opposite, but anyway), they can peacefully live the rest of their (un)lives hugging their living relatives under Calia's benevolent and infallible guidance

Well, yes, because she is obviously trying to rectify a problem with the Forsaken. If we go by what they do in their quests and what I have been told is their true character, then they should be exterminated, by both sides. No questions asked. They are not any different from the demons or old god cultists which we murder without a second thought. Both Horde and Alliance should go and wipe them off the map immediatedly.

But we can't. Because they are playable. So we somehow need to bend and break things in a way that allows the Forsaken to remain playable. Blaming everything they did on Sylvanas is pretty much the only way, even Golden herself has told us differently in the a previous book (Arthas, where the Apothecaries gleefully murder a human girl and one of their own) so she is in fact reconning her own work here. But there simply is no other way. The evil Forsaken have no place among a Horde that knows how evil they are.

Ergo, either the Forsaken change or everyone else "forgets" they are evil monsters. And I just don't see how one race should get to turn everyone else into blind idiots just because 0,0003% of the playerbase want to play an evil psychopathic zombie.

So if we take Golden's book as indication that the Forsaken are being retconned with Sylvanas as the reason behind all their evil, then the Forsaken players should be thankful to her, because in a world where the Forsaken were not playable, they would have been wiped out by now.

[Super Dickmann]

So if we take Golden's book as indication that the Forsaken are being retconned with Sylvanas as the reason behind all their evil, then the Forsaken players should be thankful to her, because in a world where the Forsaken were not playable, they would have been wiped out by now.

By whom? The Forsaken have easily suffered the most consequences of any race for misconduct, from killing the most of their omnicidal NPCs in their own questlines to being put under martial law and having their leader under oversight. More than that, back before the writers took too many hits to the head or spent too long on social media, they were well aware that the Forsaken were maintained by being of more benefit than detriment to the Horde, hence why Sylvanas was against attacking Gilneas and later against continuing the war that started in Wrath because being expansionist past the natural borders of Lordaeron that she had a claim to would bend her over a barrel. Even then, action against them took place constantly, be it in the edicts of the Stormwind Church or the Forsaken being attacked being absolutely the first thing to happen in Wrath. The idea that the Forsaken don't lose or that their actions aren't shaped by input to their content is based on fanfiction.

The nu-undead meanwhile belong behind the barn. They're unfit for purpose because anyone who wants to play a cursed human already has worgen, and whoever wants to play a regular sad human has humans. The actual product they're meant to provide meanwhile is left an unfilled niche unless we take classes into account and taking classes into account immediately unravels basically every anti-Forsaken argument.

[Raisei]

By whom? The Forsaken have easily suffered the most consequences of any race for misconduct, from killing the most of their omnicidal NPCs in their own questlines to being put under martial law and having their leader under oversight.

I know, but these are quite harmless consequences (especially since that oversight did not do anything, they just were more covert in their evil plans) and they are only this harmless because they are a playable race. An NPC race would have been wiped out for halve the shit they have done and that is my (and probably the writers) problem.
If their continued existance is only based on game mechanics that are then explained ingame by the supidity and ignorance of everyone else then I can't be fine with that, because it demeans everyone else for the benefit of this one race. They are not sneaky enough and they are not important enough for that.

More than that, back before the writers took too many hits to the head or spent too long on social media, they were well aware that the Forsaken were maintained by being of more benefit than detriment to the Horde, hence why Sylvanas was against attacking Gilneas and later against continuing the war that started in Wrath because being expansionist past the natural borders of Lordaeron that she had a claim to would bend her over a barrel. Even then, action against them took place constantly, be it in the edicts of the Stormwind Church or the Forsaken being attacked being absolutely the first thing to happen in Wrath. The idea that the Forsaken don't lose or that their actions aren't shaped by input to their content is based on fanfiction.

I don't know. Compared to other races that have not commited the crimes the Forsaken have, I think they are getting away pretty well. Nightelves, Blood Elves, Humans all seem to have lost a lot more over the years.
The Forsaken are indeed shaped by the input given, but their reaction is usually just to be more sneaky about doing the same thing. When Thrall put the Korkron in the Undercity the Apothecaries just were more covert at creating their plagues (and they murderered the Captain of the Korkron first chance they got) when Garrosh told Sylvanas to not use the blight, she nodded and smiled and then did it anyway.
When they are reprimanded they are not changing their ways, they are just pretending and that again is the problem: People are made stupid enough to just believe this.

The nu-undead meanwhile belong behind the barn. They're unfit for purpose because anyone who wants to play a cursed human already has worgen, and whoever wants to play a regular sad human has humans. The actual product they're meant to provide meanwhile is left an unfilled niche unless we take classes into account and taking classes into account immediately unravels basically every anti-Forsaken argument.

I agree that we do not need the Forsaken. We do not need them as an evil race, because we have enough genocidal creatures in the cosmos that want to exterminate all life and we do not need them as a good race because as you say, they bring nothing new or unique. If we are honest if Sylvanas had not been so successful with the teenage crowd they never would have existed anyhow.

The problem again is game mechanics. They will continue to exist because they are a player race. We cannot delete player characters. And we will also not have a third faction. So to continue their existence as a Horde race they need to be bend into shape to fit, because the Horde as it exists now is simply neither evil enough, nor stupid enough to keep the evil Forsaken around.
It's not a perfect solution by any means, but if the choice is "Make Forsaken decent people" or "Everyone else is too stupid to see their evil" then I am with the first, not least because I resent the idea that my characters are made idiots, just so some people can channel their inner psychopath.

- - - Updated - - -

My character doesn't recognize the War Council and still considers Sylvanas leader of the Horde. Not that he'd admit it publicly.

Cool story bro. Your character is a coward and suicidal at the same time. Brilliant. I wonder what else Sylvanas has to do to shake of such clingy fans. She has been trying really hard, tried to kill you, told you to your face how insignificant you are to her and then left you behind to be judged by her enemies. Does... does she really have to personally shoot you in the face and perma-delete your character to make you realize? Or will you then ask for more?

[Feanoro]

And go look at modern social media and see why any company might be chicken shit about "evil" lurking in their game.

If someone hasn't noticed the changes that always accompany the agenda those types push, then he hasn't been paying attention.

[Super Dickmann]

I know, but these are quite harmless consequences (especially since that oversight did not do anything, they just were more covert in their evil plans) and they are only this harmless because they are a playable race. An NPC race would have been wiped out for halve the shit they have done and that is my (and probably the writers) problem.
If their continued existance is only based on game mechanics that are then explained ingame by the supidity and ignorance of everyone else then I can't be fine with that, because it demeans everyone else for the benefit of this one race. They are not sneaky enough and they are not important enough for that.

It's consequences no other race has been put into. No other race has had their capital occupied by what amounts to the Praetorian Guard, nor their leader put on observation. Do they still try to do what they did prior, just more subtle about it? Yes, because that's part of their gimmick. The consequence doesn't lie in fundamentally altering the race on an out of story level, it's making in-story decisions have in-story consequences. The Forsaken are punished for their conduct and then put under oversight to exercise the goals of the Horde in conquering Gilneas and later in being involved in a war that they once again wanted no part of for reasons of self-preservation. The Forsaken did not require this wholesale destruction to not participate in conflict with everyone else, it was already their motive not to do so for reasons of self-preservation and because fighting people who want to destroy everything is in their interest. More than that, ignorance of the Forsaken is only an aspect of Vanilla to start of Wrath. And even then as said, they're attacked right away in the first quest they're involved in in that expansion while going after the LK.

To compare and contrast, when the Forsaken have a character of theirs go omnicidal, the Forsaken or the factions usually kill them, be it Godfrey, Putress or Stillwater. When a splinter group of theirs attack their allies, they get put under martial law. When they enslave one dude, it's grounds for a circlejerk renunciation by every leader in the faction, despite that same faction having people eat souls in a beach and practicing slavery for fifteen years. Compare and contrast the Ebon Blade attacking their allies during a war with Satan and only stopping due to their failure - the consequences of which is them being asked to recorrupt a holy symbol by the paladins they attacked. Or the Illidari and Stormforged both having major quests involving the PC deciding of their own accord to enslave a dude, in Ymiron's case largely for his own humiliation. And this is just in the prior expansion.

I don't know. Compared to other races that have not commited the crimes the Forsaken have, I think they are getting away pretty well. Nightelves, Blood Elves, Humans all seem to have lost a lot more over the years.

I have no idea what blood elves have lost past the backstory, story-wise I mean. Out of story they've lost their entire founding gimmick and identity in the prelude to what is now being done to the Forsaken and has been attempted with the orcs multiple times, luckily largely with failure in the latter case. Night Elves have lost more than any other race in-story, but it also wasn't as a consequence for any actions, unless Blizzard hate wammen or self-defense in war, which at least in the latter case we know to be true. As for humans, while they have lost things, they've also gone from strength to strength and most of their losses have had a logical follow-through. By comparison, the Forsaken's last appearance in Legion was them losing in their objective and I think most people can agree that Stormheim was a fine story for both factions, despite this.

Which is the one aspect where I'll agree with you on - the Forsaken did not have a culmination of the story started in Gilneas or one to the Lordaeron conflict. The ultimate in-story consequence of losing the capital and the thing they identified with was first ditched by making it not actually be a part of their identity in BTS, then by putting zero narrative focus on Lordaeron in BFA. There was no weight put on the loss of Lordaeron and neither the Forsaken got to feel a defeat there, nor the Alliance a victory. The founding conflict of the race was reduced to a pity party about Sadfang, revenge for Teldrassil - which before Sylvanas's motive shift had no meaning at all to any Forsaken, who barely encounter any night elves, and Sylvanas and Jaina having their cool trailer moments. It was a supreme waste.

I agree that we do not need the Forsaken. We do not need them as an evil race, because we have enough genocidal creatures in the cosmos that want to exterminate all life and we do not need them as a good race because as you say, they bring nothing new or unique. If we are honest if Sylvanas had not been so successful with the teenage crowd they never would have existed anyhow.

Then it's a good thing that the Forsaken haven't had omnicide as their goal at any point, not even in BFA where it's strictly Sylvanas who had that motivation sutured onto her. The Forsaken kill more renegade Forsaken with that goal than any other participant in the plot. Playable undead were wanted because of the popularity of the Scourge, the appeal of a dark race of this kind is obvious and well understood, hence the existence of other vectors for a similar, but far more shallow experience in the DKs, Maldraxxus, etc.

But I'm glad we agree that the nu-undead serve no purpose.

[Raisei]

It's consequences no other race has been put into. No other race has had their capital occupied

Not occupied, no. But I am pretty sure having your capital burned to the ground (with your civilians inside) or blighted into a waste land is a tad worse. Sure that happened to the Undercity now as well, but that wasn't their enemies.

by what amounts to the Praetorian Guard, nor their leader put on observation. Do they still try to do what they did prior, just more subtle about it? Yes, because that's part of their gimmick. The consequence doesn't lie in fundamentally altering the race on an out of story level, it's making in-story decisions have in-story consequences.

Why can the in-story decision to no longer be a group of psychopathic terrorists not be an in-story consequence? "Okay, if we keep making plagues and murdering innocents our Warchief is gonna come down hard." - "We probably shouldn't do that anymore then."
If self-presevation is their goal then this is a very legit decision. They don't have to like it, but by keeping the status quo they risk their existence a lot more then by changing.

The Forsaken are punished for their conduct and then put under oversight to exercise the goals of the Horde in conquering Gilneas and later in being involved in a war that they once again wanted no part of for reasons of self-preservation. The Forsaken did not require this wholesale destruction to not participate in conflict with everyone else, it was already their motive not to do so for reasons of self-preservation and because fighting people who want to destroy everything is in their interest.

Their desinterest in fighting wars against the Alliance is not the problem. Their engagement in wars against big bads is not the problem. Their "hobbies" of murdering farmers with plagues and shovels and building monsters from their bodies are.

More than that, ignorance of the Forsaken is only an aspect of Vanilla to start of Wrath. And even then as said, they're attacked right away in the first quest they're involved in in that expansion while going after the LK.

To compare and contrast, when the Forsaken have a character of theirs go omnicidal, the Forsaken or the factions usually kill them, be it Godfrey, Putress or Stillwater. When a splinter group of theirs attack their allies, they get put under martial law. When they enslave one dude, it's grounds for a circlejerk renunciation by every leader in the faction, despite that same faction having people eat souls in a beach and practicing slavery for fifteen years. Compare and contrast the Ebon Blade attacking their allies during a war with Satan and only stopping due to their failure - the consequences of which is them being asked to recorrupt a holy symbol by the paladins they attacked. Or the Illidari and Stormforged both having major quests involving the PC deciding of their own accord to enslave a dude, in Ymiron's case largely for his own humiliation. And this is just in the prior expansion.

While there is some hypocrisy, the bigger part of the deeds I mean are targeting civilians for no reason other then to have fun or to test their newest blight version.
When the Ebon Blade attacked the Paladins it was to bring back Tirion as an immensely powerful weapon against the Legion who (considering he was ready to become the Lich King) would likely have objected less then the other Paladins did. There was a good reason there (the Ebon Blade did not know it was a ploy of Bolvar after all) so it does not make them evil, it just makes them ruthless. The same goes for the Illidari (in their revised version, hardly in the original BC version). Both groups are doing bad things for good reasons (i.e. the survival of the planet and defeat of the Legion). That is the reason why those groups are tolerated by the factions.

The motive of the Forsaken is first and foremost their own survival (they explicitly have no loyalty towards the Horde) and they do bad things because they are jealous of the living and enjoy to bring them death and suffering. There is quite a gap between these groups.

I have no idea what blood elves have lost past the backstory, story-wise I mean. Out of story they've lost their entire founding gimmick and identity in the prelude to what is now being done to the Forsaken and has been attempted with the orcs multiple times, luckily largely with failure in the latter case. Night Elves have lost more than any other race in-story, but it also wasn't as a consequence for any actions, unless Blizzard hate wammen or self-defense in war, which at least in the latter case we know to be true. As for humans, while they have lost things, they've also gone from strength to strength and most of their losses have had a logical follow-through. By comparison, the Forsaken's last appearance in Legion was them losing in their objective and I think most people can agree that Stormheim was a fine story for both factions, despite this.

I was mostly talking about Quel'thalas yes (okay, more High Elves then Blood Elves). Then loosing their freedom to Fel Addiction.

While we can only assume since it never came to that, but I think it was more that Sylvanas lost and she lost her Lantern-shaped objective. I am 99% convinced that even with an endless supply of Val'kyr she would never sacrifice one for random Forsaken #23, so the Forsaken lost nothing because they would have gained nothing. There was talk that SLs will tell us more about this whole deal with Helya, then we can judge more informed. Maybe I am wrong but with Sylvanas character as it is, I doubt she would risk anything for the Forsaken.

Then it's a good thing that the Forsaken haven't had omnicide as their goal at any point, not even in BFA where it's strictly Sylvanas who had that motivation sutured onto her. The Forsaken kill more renegade Forsaken with that goal than any other participant in the plot. Playable undead were wanted because of the popularity of the Scourge, the appeal of a dark race of this kind is obvious and well understood, hence the existence of other vectors for a similar, but far more shallow experience in the DKs, Maldraxxus, etc.

And if their Dark Lady had openly shared her plans are you telling me that there would not have been many that eagerly had joined her? There is a huge percentile of that race that just wants to do evil things, blight people, blight forests, just because of their own fate. That much is a fact.
I mean some guy here in the forums literally said he plays Forsaken because it allows him to be a "sick sociopath" and he is far from alone. Maybe they are not omnicidal, but more for practical then for any moral reasons.

But I'm glad we agree that the nu-undead serve no purpose.

It's shame they don't, maybe if they get some kind of focus that we are not seeing yet, but as it stands now...

[Super Dickmann]

Not occupied, no. But I am pretty sure having your capital burned to the ground (with your civilians inside) or blighted into a waste land is a tad worse. Sure that happened to the Undercity now as well, but that wasn't their enemies.

That's true, but then again, separate from any consequence. The Forsaken were directly sanctioned for the action of a splinter group by having their city occupied, which has happened to no other race.

Why can the in-story decision to no longer be a group of psychopathic terrorists not be an in-story consequence? "Okay, if we keep making plagues and murdering innocents our Warchief is gonna come down hard." - "We probably shouldn't do that anymore then."
If self-presevation is their goal then this is a very legit decision. They don't have to like it, but by keeping the status quo they risk their existence a lot more then by changing.

Because without the use of the Blight once they're deployed by the Horde as shock troops in a location they don't care about, unlike the ones they do want to take over like Lordaeron, they'd get their ass handed to them, as happens in Gilneas. More than that, they were already the object of attack before then and people were quite rightly after them for their earlier conduct and for how indiscriminate they are, so purposefully handicapping themselves in a war of extermination doesn't gel. Self-preservation also works with MAD.

Their desinterest in fighting wars against the Alliance is not the problem. Their engagement in wars against big bads is not the problem. Their "hobbies" of murdering farmers with plagues and shovels and building monsters from their bodies are.

This is where we won't come to any kind of agreement. The only thing that's required is for scenarios to exist where that is the cause to have them attacked, which is already the case. To give an outlet to fight said race. If you agree that there's nothing that obligates the race to participate in conflict when it's not in its interest - as is the case, or that there's nothing that makes their involvement nonsensical when fighting big bads, then the rest are quibbles. Nothing makes plague more morally abhorrent than sucking out someone's soul or burning them alive except retarded narrative framing and both have the faction stamp of approval.

While there is some hypocrisy, the bigger part of the deeds I mean are targeting civilians for no reason other then to have fun or to test their newest blight version.
When the Ebon Blade attacked the Paladins it was to bring back Tirion as an immensely powerful weapon against the Legion who (considering he was ready to become the Lich King) would likely have objected less then the other Paladins did. There was a good reason there (the Ebon Blade did not know it was a ploy of Bolvar after all) so it does not make them evil, it just makes them ruthless. The same goes for the Illidari (in their revised version, hardly in the original BC version). Both groups are doing bad things for good reasons (i.e. the survival of the planet and defeat of the Legion). That is the reason why those groups are tolerated by the factions.

Their being deployed against the Silver Hand being for the sake of the war with the Legion is a sham, as Bolvar admits later, knowing you'd fail. The real reason was to more closely tie the Ebon Blade to himself, much like how he appoints you to serve as his enforcer and goes around poaching bodies. Fighting the Legion is part of what he does, but so is furthering his own position, as is also made clear when he says directly that if you die he'd take over the Ebon Blade. The factions do tolerate both groups for their utility, but the Forsaken are part of the faction and fight the same baddies, and their only friendly fire incident was done by a renegade group. Altruism is not required, just common interest. The Forsaken are largely motivated by "fuck you, got mine", hence why they're entirely ruthless to the humans on their territory, but Sylvanas actively sends you to play nice with the Argent Crusade and after they've achieved their goal they just camp out and do nothing as an explicit plot point, something that they would have done sooner given the chance. And the enemies they've made in the process is what fucks them over in Stormheim, where they are first the object of attack, then lose, on the basis of the enemies their past conduct has made them.

I was mostly talking about Quel'thalas yes (okay, more High Elves then Blood Elves). Then loosing their freedom to Fel Addiction.

While we can only assume since it never came to that, but I think it was more that Sylvanas lost and she lost her Lantern-shaped objective. I am 99% convinced that even with an endless supply of Val'kyr she would never sacrifice one for random Forsaken #23, so the Forsaken lost nothing because they would have gained nothing. There was talk that SLs will tell us more about this whole deal with Helya, then we can judge more informed. Maybe I am wrong but with Sylvanas character as it is, I doubt she would risk anything for the Forsaken.

Even if it's just backstory, the Forsaken lost a lot more than the Blood Elves did, what with being dead and what with not having their problem magically solved by Velen a couple years later. As for Stormheim - at least in current lore, it's explicitly stated that she did so to keep them from dying, both in spoken word and in her own internal monologue. Now there's a 100% chance that that will be retconned, but at present, Sylvanas' goal was to make herself and the Forsaken immortal through the horn and she failed at that because of the enemy she'd made in Genn and the Alliance. Even if she were motivated solely by selfish goals, the Forsaken would benefit by proxy, as has been the running trend with her and the race for most of their time together and what is at the core of her conclusion in Edge of Night.

And if their Dark Lady had openly shared her plans are you telling me that there would not have been many that eagerly had joined her? There is a huge percentile of that race that just wants to do evil things, blight people, blight forests, just because of their own fate. That much is a fact.
I mean some guy here in the forums literally said he plays Forsaken because it allows him to be a "sick sociopath" and he is far from alone. Maybe they are not omnicidal, but more for practical then for any moral reasons.

Oh, there's definitely a group in it. The gallows humour is a huge part of the Forsaken. Hence putting horses in horse plaguing valves, apothecaries melting their assistants when they get salty or even the whole shovel quest. There's a tongue in cheek air to most of these that is entirely lost in BFA, where none of the Forsaken except Chadwick's group look to be having any kind of fun. As for your first sentiment, I also find it nonsensical that the Forsaken would turn on Sylvanas because she called the Horde some mean names, especially since if anything BTS set up their ties to the Alliance and their former family, not to the Horde, and their previous bonds to the Horde were undermined, but here we are. I can tell you you're wrong and that they would have turned on her - since they did, but I can't actually tell you why because I have no idea.

It's shame they don't, maybe if they get some kind of focus that we are not seeing yet, but as it stands now...

There's simply not that many stories they could be used for and they don't have much space in their own faction. I do think the Lightforged undead idea does have some niche story opportunities, mind, mostly if we also go back to the Light having a negative feeling for the undead, since then you could do a lot of interesting things with the Forsaken and penance, but I don't think they're going in that direction.

[mickybrighteyes]

Well, that's exactly what Ms. Golden told us in her last opus magnum, aka BtS. Forsaken weren't evil, but just poor, loving souls oppressed by a caricature of police state led by Sylvanas. Now that they got rid of her (actually the opposite, but anyway), they can peacefully live the rest of their (un)lives hugging their living relatives under Calia's benevolent and infallible guidance

don't forget the self loathing cause they aren't human and are out of touch with what being human is due to be dead...