Going from casual to seriously playing still sucks ass

[Amariw]

The bigger problem I see is the PvP/PvE overlap, which REALLY pisses me off. PvPers are forced to do PvE content, and PvErs are forced to do PvP content - and it's really bad when someone is in a place they don't want to be, but other people need to rely on them doing well.

Quoted for truth. It's been one expansion too long for this bullshit. People should be able to gear in the type of competitive content they enjoy, but right now m+ is the best way to gear for pvp.

[Niwes]

I don't think that's true. You don't need BiS Corrputions, Essences, Traits, etc to do serious content. Sure, you will never be "the best", but you can be in the top 10% even with suboptimal Corruption, Essences and Traits. And you've got the time. Week after week you unlock more essences; each week you amass more Echoes, etc.

No, you don't need the PvP Essence to clear mythic Nyalotha. Would it be easier with the essence? Probably. But having good gear still is enough, coupled with skill.
The only problem here is, that you can't raidlog anymore. You have to invest 2 hours each week to do a +15, run one or two visions and then some time to catch up on essences.

Having to have BiS right from the start is entirely unnecessary and just a mental barrier. You just can't expect to be on par with players who play seriously for months without pause right away.

ehh what ???

first)

playing with ANY next best corrruption, ANY next best essence (lets say default crucibal of flames) and ANY azerite trait... you are kidding me. you character have less than 30% of its output. you was never on forums, sims or even tested that. go, do it.

we dont talk here about the top 10% of your char output, made for mythic raiders to have something to discuss. when you do what you said, your chracter is gimped absurdly. this is complete BS you talking here. test it by yourself. my moonkin do 60k dps with ideal stuff. i tested what you said. i did between 6,5k and 10k dps. its factor 6-10. sorry, complete BS what you talk.

second)

your essences comin in week by week ? you act like they automatically are earned weeky by week, by doing nothing. you HAVE to do different stuff. stuff that maybe you dont like or is not your playstyle. that is the entire reason of this thread. so, again, COMPLETE BS what you are talking here.

its not a matter of pve vs pvp here. enough ppl in this thread said, they hate doing outdoor content, bc they are the „log on, raid, log off“ player type. that is what the whole discussion here is about. and no, essences not comin by their selfes week after week. so, what is this BS about ?

no mindlessly offense here, but this 2 points are just not rational at all for me, in any way. sorry.

[Echocho]

Are you trying to pug everything or what?? I play with my guild and I can do all those things while being far from optimal

[LordVargK]

ehh what ???

first)

playing with ANY next best corrruption, ANY next best essence (lets say default crucibal of flames) and ANY azerite trait... you are kidding me. you character have less than 30% of its output. you was never on forums, sims or even tested that. go, do it.

we dont talk here about the top 10% of your char output, made for mythic raiders to have something to discuss. when you do what you said, your chracter is gimped absurdly. this is complete BS you talking here. test it by yourself. my moonkin do 60k dps with ideal stuff. i tested what you said. i did between 6,5k and 10k dps. its factor 6-10. sorry, complete BS what you talk.

second)

your essences comin in week by week ? you act like they automatically are earned weeky by week, by doing nothing. you HAVE to do different stuff. stuff that maybe you dont like or is not your playstyle. that is the entire reason of this thread. so, again, COMPLETE BS what you are talking here.

its not a matter of pve vs pvp here. enough ppl in this thread said, they hate doing outdoor content, bc they are the „log on, raid, log off“ player type. that is what the whole discussion here is about. and no, essences not comin by their selfes week after week. so, what is this BS about ?

no mindlessly offense here, but this 2 points are just not rational at all for me, in any way. sorry.

Look. Your worst case scenario is absolutely unrealistic. Azerite Armor has 2 traits now; with raiding, and one mythic +15 per week you will get good enough traits in no time. To assume that someone only has bad traits is wrong, since you have 3 choices per armorpiece and you get plenty of it.

And Show me the logs where 90% of your damage comes from extra stuff. I don't believe you at all.

And yes, you do less damage without corruptions. That's the point of them. But a skilled player won't need those, because he does enough damage by his skill alone. Corruptions are for casuals to offset their lack of skill. Sure, you won't log very high, but the boss will go down, even without corruptions.

And essences: honestly I don't see your problem here. The most effort (outside of the pvp essences, which again are not necessary) ist probably getting rep in nazjatar (16 days of daylies) and rep in uldum (3 weeks) and that's for rank 3. Everything else is gained through normal gameplay. Some important ones can be farmed in a day or two (visions of perfection). And this work is only done once and lasts you to the end of the expansion.

I think if you are an "log on log off" player type you can't be considered a serious player.

- - - Updated - - -

Say what? Most professional guilds do things with a lot less gear then the dirty massses.

Uhm, yes. Exactly. And if they had 10 more itemlevels, then they had now problem at all.

[Drusin]

And I believe wow is still too simple, we should have so much systems so it would be even impossible to understand what is good and what is not. Like PoE tree + crafting + items + stats.

Surely you know with enough time someone would develop a sim no matter how complex Blizz makes the game. More complexity only hurts casual players who don't want to learn to optimize.

[kaminaris]

Surely you know with enough time someone would develop a sim no matter how complex Blizz makes the game. More complexity only hurts casual players who don't want to learn to optimize.

Not really. Casuals don't aim to minmax on every single step and taking away any complexity (before corruptions "complexity" did not even exist) makes it just less interesting.

PoE is actually very good example of that simply because the amount of builds is almost limitless. And practically every build you do (assuming you have some general understanding what various stats do) is viable. As simple as that.

You might not need to be the fastest clear speed or boss killer but every properly done build can do all content.

More complexity absolutely doesn't hurt casual playerbase since up until now we had NO COMPLEXITY AT ALL.

[Alvito]

Blizzard needs to ban any type of mod like raider.io, etc. That will help with getting rid of the elite snobs making judgements without even knowing one's skill or ability to adapt at higher levels of play.

Well they can't ban websites that aren't their own. Unless they don't show players on armory anymore there isn't much they could do to stop it. Just like almost every other person that easily gets groups for dungeons all you need to do is keep running them and work your way up, run with friends or form your own groups. Groups for dungeons fill up insanely quickly in most cases so of course those making them are going to use the information they have at hand to make the best choice possible, you can and should do the same.

[Motso]

Look. Your worst case scenario is absolutely unrealistic. Azerite Armor has 2 traits now; with raiding, and one mythic +15 per week you will get good enough traits in no time. To assume that someone only has bad traits is wrong, since you have 3 choices per armorpiece and you get plenty of it.

And Show me the logs where 90% of your damage comes from extra stuff. I don't believe you at all.

And yes, you do less damage without corruptions. That's the point of them. But a skilled player won't need those, because he does enough damage by his skill alone. Corruptions are for casuals to offset their lack of skill. Sure, you won't log very high, but the boss will go down, even without corruptions.

And essences: honestly I don't see your problem here. The most effort (outside of the pvp essences, which again are not necessary) ist probably getting rep in nazjatar (16 days of daylies) and rep in uldum (3 weeks) and that's for rank 3. Everything else is gained through normal gameplay. Some important ones can be farmed in a day or two (visions of perfection). And this work is only done once and lasts you to the end of the expansion.

I think if you are an "log on log off" player type you can't be considered a serious player.

- - - Updated - - -



Uhm, yes. Exactly. And if they had 10 more itemlevels, then they had now problem at all.

I am the very definition of a casual, mostly been sticking to LFR and not really trying. Decided to see how much it did suck ass to start taking it seriously.
I can't stand mythic so I stuck to Nyalotha. All it took was clearing out LFR and Normal, and tidying up my essences a little and managed to actually do a heroic this morning.
I have a couple of haste corruptions but thats it (arms warrior) but I practiced the fights and read up and I wasn't top of the meters but I did ok.
Easily within a single lockout you can get yourself set up, and then its just a bit of grinding. And even that is pretty varied so its not super dull.

Its a really exaggerated issue, they don't come much lazier than me and shit I manage.

Although I guess RNG could really screw you and you could not get any gear but thats always been the way.

[vsb]

1. You don't need R3 essences to start. Yes, you need them eventually, as they are slightly more powerful, but you can work on them at your own schedule.
2. You can do visions playing a healer.
3. You can run M+ with high Rio score (although I agree that it might be hard for non-tanks no-meta classes).
4. You can find heroic raids without experience. But guilds certainly will make it easier.

[Wries]

As always the key to gearing and landing in the high tiers have been to be social. Make friends in-game and help eachother out and all that. You won't land there as a lone wolf, and pugging with randoms all the time every time is an extremely slow route. If it doesn't suite you, then fine. There are not one but two difficulty tiers that caters directly to the casual demographic.

[Alvito]

I make friends, so I don't need to use such pretentious and flawed mods.

Why do you want them to ban it than? If you don't use it and only run with your friends how would you know how it impacts anything? There is nothing pretentious about a site or add on, some of the people that use them improperly could be an issue for sure, but that is on the player not the tool they use wrong. As I closed with, people can and should make their own groups just like those they are complaining about are doing, that way they can set whatever terms they want and have fun the way they want to.

- - - Updated - - -

1. You don't need R3 essences to start. Yes, you need them eventually, as they are slightly more powerful, but you can work on them at your own schedule.
2. You can do visions playing a healer.
3. You can run M+ with high Rio score (although I agree that it might be hard for non-tanks no-meta classes).
4. You can find heroic raids without experience. But guilds certainly will make it easier.

To add to this if you are even decent in mythic plus people will often ask to btag you to run with you again or you can do the same. I have seen this when I am running with 3 other friends and we pug 1 or I am a pug. Often what it boils down to people don't want to blame themselves for anything and it becomes easier to blame systems or other players for their issues.

[BeepBoo]

Blizzard needs to ban any type of mod like raider.io, etc. That will help with getting rid of the elite snobs making judgements without even knowing one's skill or ability to adapt at higher levels of play.

No, it wouldn't. They just wouldn't even give people the chance. They'd stick to tried and true groups of friends or look for some other metrics. The idea of proven elites looking to sporadically match up with a bunch of random people across the internet and somehow NOT being concerned with the prime reason they're doing it sporadically (they want convenience, and speed = convenience) is a pipe dream.

What you'll be left with is some other metric that is unobtanium for people who aren't already part of some elite squad OR no groups being started or made publicly applicable by those elites who would carry your ass. You'd be left making groups with scrubs _only_ and be in the exact same boat you're in now where you're excluded from the time of people YOU need to get the goal YOU want accomplished. Here's a hint: you need them more than they need you, so stop acting like you should be entitled to their time and efforts. They owe you nothing.

On with the OP: Yes, it does still suck. It sucks more than it used to, even, because now, instead of getting boosted to proper gear in an alt-raid in 1-2 weeks, you have to have the proper /played to get anywhere close to the bleeding edge, which is REALLY stupid. Essentially, if you ever slip and don't participate in the grind, you're not catching back up.

[Bigbazz]

On with the OP: Yes, it does still suck. It sucks more than it used to, even, because now, instead of getting boosted to proper gear in an alt-raid in 1-2 weeks, you have to have the proper /played to get anywhere close to the bleeding edge, which is REALLY stupid. Essentially, if you ever slip and don't participate in the grind, you're not catching back up.

Yeah a new player will always be miles behind. I returned in May, previously played during the launch then unsubbed. I'm within about 10 ilvl of the best geared players, but the best geared players have much higher corruption resistance, optimised corruptions, sockets on almost every piece and maxed out essences. Catching up with just cloak corruption resistance is months (6 per week), catching up with sockets and corruptions even longer.

There is just a mountain of stuff to, you could grind yourself into unsubscribing again to speed up that process but you can't overcome the time-gating, with Shadowlands getting closer and closer makes that a waste of time as it will all be soon removed.

[protpaul]

Blizzard decided to cater to bad players at the end of the day...

All these accumulative systems at level cap exist for one singular purpose. To make Johnny only does dailies and lfr feel like he accomplishes something when he logs on dispite never challenging himself in anyway nor improving in anyway.

Rather then letting him be stagnant they invented a faux progression system just for him so he can be ahead of someone just starting out.

Sadly this mentality has caught on and spread. It used to be a fresh capped toon could be fully ready to start mythic raiding in roughly 2 weeks if the player knew what they were doing. Now that same feat takes closer to two months.... and why? So people who never do anything feel like they are achieving something.

Part of me still wishes we would go back to a pre legion mentality but I think those days are dead and buried.

[SirCowdog]

WoW is a subscription model game. Of course anything at the top end is going to be set up to require time-intensive investment.

Add to that the professional gamers and nolifers who set the bar, and the wannabe players who want to believe they're that good through emulation.

What you get is a situation where being "serious" requires a LOT of time.

The only way to avoid that situation is the time-honored method of "Make your own group". Because as long as you're trying to fit into the established dynamic of "serious gaming", you have to play by its rules and expectations.

But even forming your own guild, training, practicing, and gearing together....you're still looking at a serious time investment. That's just what WoW is.

[protpaul]

WoW is a subscription model game. Of course anything at the top end is going to be set up to require time-intensive investment.

Add to that the professional gamers and nolifers who set the bar, and the wannabe players who want to believe they're that good through emulation.

What you get is a situation where being "serious" requires a LOT of time.

The only way to avoid that situation is the time-honored method of "Make your own group". Because as long as you're trying to fit into the established dynamic of "serious gaming", you have to play by its rules and expectations.

But even forming your own guild, training, practicing, and gearing together....you're still looking at a serious time investment. That's just what WoW is.

Yes and no.

Pre legion it required far less time to be in even a six to eight week full clearing mythic guild. Since AP the time spent has climbed drastically for how long it takes to be mythic ready assuming he player has the skills.

[Tronski]

You mean Nyalotha? Because in EP Corruptions weren't a thing and Azerite and Essences could not be bought.

And gear should be a gatekeeper, like it historically has been. Gear is the only thing that keeps professional guilds from clearing a new raid on day one.

No, I did not mean Ny'alotha.

If you can bypass it with gold, then it is a bad gatekeeper. And how do one get gold? Grinding - whether it be AH, Boosting or farming.

Also, I didn't mention Corruptions at all, but you did need to grind AP.

My point was still that even method has to rely on gear to get anywhere, they have skill, yet they have to grind more than you and me.

[Nizah]

I re started playing again and im sorry for doing so. The fact that i started again with a group of friends made it alot easier while having fun, but the grind to get started is verry tedious. Get started as to get to a level so you can atleast do a mythic 15 for weekly. Once again, easier with friends couse you go step by step untill you can get a 15 key. But i dont wanna imagine how hard it would be if try to do it alone.

[Revamp Man]

Pretty sure ppl were clearing mythic without perfect corruption in fact they had less

Also can do +15s

The essences are a 3 week grind

TBH though I’d just prepare for shadowlands

Find a good guild now even if it’s not a 12/12m guild because come next expansion you’ll be set with a spot

Level your alts and get them farming gold
Use that for flasks and the 1min potion to speed leveling

[Zephire]

If you want to take the game seriously yeah, you gotta put n the work. How or why is this a problem? Being competitive in almost every hobby requires this attitude/effort.
How is the game telling you to not take it seriously?

If you wanna become good at CS:GO, what do you do? You practice aiming, map movement and teamwork etc by doing the content you want to be good at.
If you wanna become good at WoW, what do you do? You farm gear and corruptions, then you do the content you want to be good at like mythic raiding.
This is what I feel is the bigest difference. In WoW you spend so much time with activites that doesn't really effectivly improve your skill level. Trying to farm arena as soon as you hit max level will net you unskilled oponents that win over you by brute force from ilvl and corruptions. That's frustrating. Yes, it's not a FPS, it's a MMORPG and farming is part of that (for now). I simply mean that it's not as simple as you make it, the general idea is sound though^^

Yeah doing the trivial content yields trivial rewards. Why is that a problem?
This whole "need aotc to get aotc" thing has got to be a meme. Even on my pure dps chars I got into full clear groups with little to no problem. Without linking my mains achieves or anything of the sort. Im starting to think people preaching that its hard to get into Aotc grps without aotc are signing up for like a single grp, not getting in, then running to the forums to complain before just looking for another grp.

M+ I get the same feeling. Sometimes I have to sign up to 10+ grps before getting an invite and yeah its annoying but I still manage to get into a grp (on a warlock mind you) in sub 15min. Its not hard to climb your RIO score either. 10's will take anyone of reasonable ilvl (talking like 445+) and thats an ilvl you can get from normal raid, emi boxes, invasions, visions. Once you clear most dungeons on a 10-12 you easily have the io for for +15 grps. I've also NEVER seen a grp deny ask/deny me for my corruptions.

Any spec can 5 mask visions solo at rank 12 cloak. Reference a youtube video if you need help with routing/cds/talents. Some healer specs are actually easier than their dps counterparts.

How to break the cycle? Maybe get the mentality out of your head that anyone should need to carry you.

You can see most raid progress with r.io addon so I assume many people use that instead of asking for curve. I'd think that's why anyway, I don't really know :P

Sometimes you get into a group, sometimes it disbands halfway, sometimes you finnish in time or not. It varies a lot you just have to try and try again

I re started playing again and im sorry for doing so. The fact that i started again with a group of friends made it alot easier while having fun, but the grind to get started is verry tedious. Get started as to get to a level so you can atleast do a mythic 15 for weekly. Once again, easier with friends couse you go step by step untill you can get a 15 key. But i dont wanna imagine how hard it would be if try to do it alone.

Can be very difficult. I've always played from the start of the expansion so I have had to put minimal effort in to keep everything decent (I also seem to have a bit of luck when it comes to loot). Some of my friends who started mid-late into the expansion have had some issues where they have too bad gear to do anything without getting carried. Did level an alt once to see how it felt. Wanted to be DPS and man, it was sooo rough doing it alone.