Horde Reparations

[Thage]

We were TOLD we would be getting a grey war, where we could fight the Alliance and not be the bad guys.

We have been told this SINCE CATACLYSM.

All we want is what Blizz told us we'd have.

Compilation of Blizz's LIES:
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...version/596347

To be fair, by this point it should be abundantly clear the current crop of writers lack the skill and will to properly portray a morally-grey war. Wanting them to take another stab at it and hoping this time we'll be able to carry on killing each other like gentlemen without being directly complicit in stunts that would get us tried in the Hague IRL seems like an exercise in futility. Better that they take the millstone from around their neck and let the faction tensions simmer at 'leadership cooperates but there's border skirmishes and shadow conflicts aplenty' like the current soft-reset has dialed them back to.

[SoundOfGuns]

How should the Horde pay reparations to the Alliance, particularly the Night Elves, for their conduct in the Fourth War?

The same way the Alliance did for actually putting Orcs in camps for generations: Not at all. Don't bait. >:V

[Ielenia]

The same way the Alliance did for actually putting Orcs in camps for generations: Not at all. Don't bait. >:V

Ok, three things:
• One: no, the orcs weren't in internment camps "for generations". For fuck's sake, the fel Horde killed Varian's parents when they invaded.
• Two: the alternative to internment camps was extermination of the orcs. Because it would be stupid to let the invaders that just massacred your villages and razed your land simply for "lok'tar ogar" live and risk another "lok'tar ogar" party.
• Three: the orcs were put into internment camps because they invaded Azeroth and murdered and pillaged every single settlement they came across.

[SoundOfGuns]

Ok, three things:
• One: no, the orcs weren't in internment camps "for generations". For fuck's sake, the fel Horde killed Varian's parents when they invaded.
• Two: the alternative to internment camps was extermination of the orcs. Because it would be stupid to let the invaders that just massacred your villages and razed your land simply for "lok'tar ogar" live and risk another "lok'tar ogar" party.
• Three: the orcs were put into internment camps because they invaded Azeroth and murdered and pillaged every single settlement they came across.

fel Horde

I get when people get all upsetty-spaghetti over my serious and more elaborate takes, but i didn't expect that here! Especially not with so much fervor... Im aware. Of course i could still unload how its stated that Thralls generation grew entirely up in camps, but its not like the timeline makes any sense anymore with how for a time, the span between "Thrall was found by Blackmoore" and "internment camps were build" was once more akin to a hot minute and then suddenly were 10 years apart somehow.

Of course if i was to make a serious point and not just a joke because it apparently gets funny people mad, i would agree that obviously Sylvanas did worse. Committing a war crime because "I DUN LIEK MOONELF HAEV HOEP >:I" is... a thing i guess. Im not exactly sure if you can hold the entire Horde accountable for it, considering that Sylvanas did try and murder everyone who rejected her hell march with zombie-assassins, and while there certainly is a historic example for paying reparations when the country was led by a dictatorial, racist dipshit and their frat-boys for a time... im not sure how well that applies when you consider N'Zoth in the mix.

But there also is the whole thing Varian said about "Should you slip on honor i will end you." and... Horde clearly did that.

[badzerath]

The best replies to this thread are the ones RPing the faction conflict and the one questioning the moderator infracting said posts.

Gimme a fucking break.

Prob Alliance scum.

Edit: Garrosh and Sylvanas did nothing wrong.

[Narwhalosh Whalescream]

The horde should allot 50% of their resource to the alliance, same with whatever that comes out of their dockyards, provide laborers for repairing alliance areas damaged by the horde, give the alliance a treaty port near orgrimmar in case the horde starts acting up. Ashenvale should be handed back to the night elves in its entirety.

The horde should also be demilitarized severely so that it cannot wage offensive wars again. The alliance shall also seize what is left of their fleet.

[Ielenia]

fel Horde

They're still the same orcs that crossed the Dark Portal, invaded Azeroth, and razed human settlements (and high elf ones) and killed countless people.

I get when people get all upsetty-spaghetti over my serious and more elaborate takes, but i didn't expect that here!

The problem is that your "serious and elaborate", facetious as it may be, take was just plain wrong.

Im not exactly sure if you can hold the entire Horde accountable for it,

The whole Horde can be held accountable because they still followed her. Even at the meeting in at the Stormsong base, when Sylvanas put Baine in chains, no one said anything: Lor'themar, Talanji, Thalyssra, Rexxar, Rokhan... not a single peep, and they did nothing. At that moment or after it. And it's not like this is an unknown situation for them: they've already rebelled against one out-of-control warchief before, who employed the same tactics of "kill everyone who opposes me, friend or foe".

[Mardux]

Horde loses characters? You don't say?

Horde fans: We want to crush the Alliance for existing! DA WER IN WERCREFT!
Blizz writers, well known for being hippies: War is bad, maaaaaaaaaan.
Horde fans: BLOOD! THUNDER! CHICKEN TENDIES!
Blizz writers: Your endgame is everyone NotHorde dead. Alliance endgame is you stop murdering them for a while. Your endgame can't happen.
Horde fans: We lust for mountains of skulls and rivers of blood! Also, don't you dare blame the war on our aggression.
Blizz writers: OK, Alliance wins because we're not flushing our business model. Everything is blamed on $hordecharacter so the Horde itself is blameless.
Horde fans: *surprised Pikachu face*

You were pretty much spot on up until “we want to crush the alliance for existing” bit.

[Syegfryed]

The horde should allot 50% of their resource to the alliance, same with whatever that comes out of their dockyards, provide laborers for repairing alliance areas damaged by the horde, give the alliance a treaty port near orgrimmar in case the horde starts acting up. Ashenvale should be handed back to the night elves in its entirety.

The horde should also be demilitarized severely so that it cannot wage offensive wars again. The alliance shall also seize what is left of their fleet.

yeah, right, you are dreaming to high

[Feanoro]

You were pretty much spot on up until “we want to crush the alliance for existing” bit.

I take it you don't read these forums, other fan sites, or pay any attention to the crowds at Blizzcon.

[Soon-TM]

The horde should allot 50% of their resource to the alliance.

The last time such things were attempted IRL, it resulted in WW2. Think of something different if you don't want to be stomped again.

[Skytotem]

The last time such things were attempted IRL, it resulted in WW2. Think of something different if you don't want to be stomped again.

Note: Germany still lost WW2

[Schattenlied]

We were TOLD we would be getting a grey war, where we could fight the Alliance and not be the bad guys.

We have been told this SINCE CATACLYSM.

All we want is what Blizz told us we'd have.

Compilation of Blizz's LIES:
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...version/596347

Problem is, the only way to get a "grey war" is to write the entire Alliance out of character because no one Alliance leader, even the "High King" actually holds dominion over any of the others... Meanwhile all you need to start a war on the Horde side is write the one person with all the power (the Warchief) out of character, or not even out of character in Sylvanas' case, she's always been a nutjob, she just never had the power to do anything about it.

Sidenote, we do now know that Sylvanas' actions have caused both HvA wars since WoW started, as she was confirmed in an interview by the guy who's been writing for her since before Wrathgate happened to have been behind the Wrathgate Blighting, which resulted in Varian declaring war on the Horde.

So, yes, they lied (or rather they spoke without thinking it through, as "lie" requires an intent to deceive, and I doubt that was their intent... As Hanlon's Razor states: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity) but they realized they couldn't do the war the way they wanted without destroying an entire faction's lore, but still wanting to start a war to at least keep that part of the promise they instead do it in the least harmful to the lore way possible, make it one person's fault. Would it have been better for them to scrap the war idea entirely? Yes! But they didn't, so, this is what we get.

Be mad at them for promising to start a war in a way that was obviously impossible without butchering large swaths of the lore, not for not keeping their promise.

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You realise the Horde are generally bad dudes right?

Also this.

They've literally been the bad guys since the franchise began... Even if we only include lore since WoW started they've been the baddies now for longer than they haven't, they were briefly not the baddies under Thrall's leadership, and he was apparently the only thing keeping them in line... His biggest fuckup was handing the reigns to Garry instead of Cairne.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Edit: Garrosh and Sylvanas did nothing wrong.

They both used the Horde for their own selfish desires. That to you is "did nothing wrong"? How as someone on the Horde faction defend characters that almost ruined them?

[Soon-TM]

Note: Germany still lost WW2

Indeed. Even so, the damage the war caused even to victors (with the sole exception of the US ofc) was so great that everyone, from Roosevelt to Stalin, decided not to repeat the blunder of Versailles after WW1.

[Skytotem]

You realise the Horde are generally bad dudes right?

Yes, that is the writing decision that I think is dumb and bad, making things so one-sided black/white after Wotlk, and villainbatting the Horde, has been detrimental to both factions.

Problem is, the only way to get a "grey war" is to write the entire Alliance out of character because no one Alliance leader, even the "High King" actually holds dominion over any of the others... Meanwhile all you need to start a war on the Horde side is write the one person with all the power (the Warchief) out of character, or not even out of character in Sylvanas' case, she's always been a nutjob, she just never had the power to do anything about it.

Sidenote, we do now know that Sylvanas' actions have caused both HvA wars since WoW started, as she was confirmed in an interview by the guy who's been writing for her since before Wrathgate happened to have been behind the Wrathgate Blighting, which resulted in Varian declaring war on the Horde.

So, yes, they lied (or rather they spoke without thinking it through, as "lie" requires an intent to deceive, and I doubt that was their intent... As Hanlon's Razor states: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity) but they realized they couldn't do the war the way they wanted without destroying an entire faction's lore, but still wanting to start a war to at least keep that part of the promise they instead do it in the least harmful to the lore way possible, make it one person's fault. Would it have been better for them to scrap the war idea entirely? Yes! But they didn't, so, this is what we get.

Be mad at them for promising to start a war in a way that was obviously impossible without butchering large swaths of the lore, not for not keeping their promise.

I disagree that they'd need to write the Alliance out of character, they'd just have to have kept its grey characters IN THE FACTION, or avoid whitewashing them.

Imagine the kind of story that we could've had if Staghelm had hung around as part of the nelfs and been the warhawk for them? Or if Moira was more of a warhawk for the Dwarves? Or if we saw more stuff from the dwarves/gnomes like Bael modan and such?

Imagine a story where there were members of the House of nobles that were more greedy or aggressive than Anduin would like?

I mean, we could still at least have a few of the draenei being zealous.

There's PLENTY of room for a grey story, it didn't have to be this way.

They didn't have to lie to half their playerbase and ruin the Horde.

Also this.

They've literally been the bad guys since the franchise began... Even if we only include lore since WoW started they've been the baddies now for longer than they haven't, they were briefly not the baddies under Thrall's leadership, and he was apparently the only thing keeping them in line... His biggest fuckup was handing the reigns to Garry instead of Cairne.

Yes, that's the bad writing I'm critiquing, Blizz should've made the conflict from Wotlk onward grey, instead of villainbatting Garry and making him racist/evil.

[TheRevenantHero]

Ok, three things:
• One: no, the orcs weren't in internment camps "for generations". For fuck's sake, the fel Horde killed Varian's parents when they invaded.
• Two: the alternative to internment camps was extermination of the orcs. Because it would be stupid to let the invaders that just massacred your villages and razed your land simply for "lok'tar ogar" live and risk another "lok'tar ogar" party.
• Three: the orcs were put into internment camps because they invaded Azeroth and murdered and pillaged every single settlement they came across.

That would be all well and good if, in canon, the Alliance didn't still keep orcs as slaves.

[Shaetha]

Indeed. Even so, the damage the war caused even to victors (with the sole exception of the US ofc) was so great that everyone, from Roosevelt to Stalin, decided not to repeat the blunder of Versailles after WW1.

So lemme get this straight, are you arguing for the dismantling of the horde or for it?

Not that it matters. What happens in real life has no bearing on what happens in a hand crafted story.

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That would be all well and good if, in canon, the Alliance didn't still keep orcs as slaves.

You're right. They should have buried them as corpses.

[TheRevenantHero]

So lemme get this straight, are you arguing for the dismantling of the horde or for it?

Not that it matters. What happens in real life has no bearing on what happens in a hand crafted story.

- - - Updated - - -



You're right. They should have buried them as corpses.

So basically you're saying it's totally ok for the Alliance to keep slaves because the only alternative is murder. Ok.

[Feanoro]

So basically you're saying it's totally ok for the Alliance to keep slaves because the only alternative is murder. Ok.

So basically you're defending the perpetrators of a continent spanning massacre, based on the actions taken against them AFTER that unprovoked massacre. OK.

"Hey, these guys nearly ended all of us, but they're beaten now. Let's just let them go their merry way, what could go wrong?" Anyone thinking like that would have to be a complete idiot who didn't remotely care about his own people.

This is a interesting topic. What do you think the Alliance should have done with the subdued Orc invaders?

Orc apologists always say something on the lines of there should have been no repercussions whatsoever for the Old Horde's rampage. Any action against the Horde is automatically unjustified because reasons.