[Spoilers]Lilian was quick to respond. “XXX is one of us now. You will have to acce

[LemonDemonGirl]

Bwonsamdi is a reaper of souls, also. And I am finding, with the introduction to such pieces of work in the Shadowlands as, say, Mue'zala, Bwonsamdi has demonstrated that, while he is not a[B] creature of true good, or even of the higher good, he is also not inherently evil. he just is.[/B] In his own way, Bwonsamdi might have just did what he did to preserve the Zandalari, and prevent them from a trip to the Maw. I don't know. I suppose we'll find out.

He might be as close as you can get to an actual Morally Gray character in WoW. It fits, since death isn't really evil either, it just exists. And since he's a Grim Reaper of souls, it fits him well. Mueh'zala did derseve to have his arse kicked, just not in the way the dialogue put it.

He did save as many souls as he can from the Maw, and making a deal with him seems like a guaranteed way to keep yourself out of WoW's hell

[Eldar45]

Did the Zandalari officially join the Horde before or after the Battle of Dazar'alor?

[Yarathir]

I honestly don't understand why Horde fans are always so eager to scream "war war war!" when they know neither side is gonna be satisfied by the result and the Horde specifically might lose more of their already dwindling cast of lore characters.

[Kathranis]

Did the Zandalari officially join the Horde before or after the Battle of Dazar'alor?

After. It happens after Talanji's coronation ceremony.

[qwerty123456]

Bwon was pretty clearly offering this mostly as a means to test her. Especially since nothing that happened in Zandalar actually diminished Sylvanas' plan - she still got her casualty rate up, largely due to the Alliance laying off the attack. If anything, the fact that the result was inconclusive but aggravated the Zandalari helped her out. And in turn, nothing that happened there would make Talanji more positive towards the Alliance, given that her dad was dead.

Talanji has no way of knowing if it was a test or not even if it was or wasn't one. Clearly by the point of that quest Blizzard had already flesh out the plans for Shadowlands and everything so its pretty obvious that he knows shit the mortals and the players don't know.

And if she were to look back at Bwonsamdi's offer sure she could think it was just a test, or maybe that Bwonsamdi knew shit and was "helping" in his own way which given his nature and realm would fit the type of help that he would freely give, or even "oh shit I chose some random dickhead who turned out to be evil over my gods I'm a terrible Zandalari/Troll".

[Feanoro]

@Feanoro

1 & 2. I don't, but the characters have no reason to believe this. Because in a war with any rational party negotiating after starting a war with genocide and just suffering a serious defeat would be suicide and have really dire consequences for you in the negotiations, effectively unconditional surrender. We know that's not the case, but if we operate from an out of story perspective then once again carrying on is the right move because our clairvoyance would allow us to see that Anduin would make the wrong move and let us get the upper hand again.

3. Oh, it could have been done better and Baine could be better presented, but he wasn't. It would also be better if Sylvanas took Derek aside in a room or just had him possessed rather than publicize her plan to her doubting subjects and then pick the most ineffective way possible to achieve it, but she didn't. We work with what we have and what we have is that Baine made a major faux pas that would leave any person bitter with, if not him per se, then the position he espouses.

We don't even have to go Doyle for 1 and 2. After the entire history of the wars between A and H, they almost certainly know they'll get a scolding and that's it. Further, they know damn well that Anduin is a mewling flower child, and reference that during the initial conversations about the Teldrassil campaigns. Further, you talk about rationality, but these are the people who just decided "Hey, let's start massacring Alliance because one day they might be angry at us for past massacres! Better hope like hell we win, because we're going to add yet another massacre to the list!" Almost certainly unintentionally, the Horde, especially orcs, are written as bloodlusting imbeciles.

For 3, I think we agree. Doyle says the writers and devs simply tried to cram a lot into a single video, to the detriment of all the points they tried to make.

[Super Dickmann]

Talanji has no way of knowing if it was a test or not even if it was or wasn't one. Clearly by the point of that quest Blizzard had already flesh out the plans for Shadowlands and everything so its pretty obvious that he knows shit the mortals and the players don't know.

And if she were to look back at Bwonsamdi's offer sure she could think it was just a test, or maybe that Bwonsamdi knew shit and was "helping" in his own way which given his nature and realm would fit the type of help that he would freely give, or even "oh shit I chose some random dickhead who turned out to be evil over my gods I'm a terrible Zandalari/Troll".

Not only was Bwonsamdi treated iffily at the time by the Zandalari, see Rastakahan seeing it as a 'deal with the devil' kind of thing, but this whole train of argument is nonsensical - Talanji killing Sylvanas to solve the deal with Bwonsamdi would get her absolutely zero steps closer to solving the issues she's complaining about in the excerpt, namely having lessened Horde support and the Alliance having attacked her city and killed her dad. Hell, Bwonsamdi helps in fighting them off during the raid, so I genuinely don't get what point you're trying to make.

@Feanoro

They've been in two major wars, one got them in labour camps instead of killed, which to the orcish mindset is especially offensive given how big a deal internment is, and isnt' all that pleasant and likely to engender positive feelings either. The second was a cop out, but a cop out where Varian ended it with a threat to fight again, having been the one to declare the war in the first place. Now we, consumers of the story that we are, know that this is an empty threat that no one can deliver on due to gameplay restrictions, but the in-story characters don't. Why you would ever conceive of a conflict where we know flat out that one side is omnibenevolent in a war game is beyond me, but here we are. It's why I'm also not going to bother going into their in-story motive, because A) it hardly matters due to aforementioned omnibenevolence B) I have no idea what it is at this stage of the proceedings.

[TrueHorde]

The Bitterness broke the scene playing out in his head. He opened his eyes, and there was no tall grass and no cabin, and no Flynn there beside him to hear this tale. His grandmother Pathonia always wore a grotesque amount of rings, jewels glittering on every knuckle, but on her right ring finger she wore only a tied red string. As a boy, Shaw had asked what it meant once; Pathonia had cuffed him across the cheek and he never asked again.

He thought then of that small red thread, saw it unwind, growing longer and longer, until he saw it connect from that scared boy to where he stood now, a line drawn in blood. How different his family's legacy could have been, how different his life could have been, had he been given the freedom to choose for himself. Did Flynn Fairwind feel the same? Doomed to a life of piracy, of theft, because his mother had put him on that path?

Shaw leaned against the cold gold wall, forehead instantly chilled, and wondered about freedom, about how much of it he had felt aboard the Bold Arva, and the man that had been there with him. A man that smelled like whiskey and salt and soap, whose coat had been warm in his hands, as warm as sun-buked stones. He pushed himself away from the wall and retreated to the stone slab, finding only fitful sleep.

----------------------------------------------

On the fourth day, the skinny little troll in the too-big armor slipped something under the door with his gruel. A long piece of grass, perfect in every way, firm enough to take a slice. Like from a fingernail. Mathias picked it up, confused, studying it from every angle. Not much of a digging implement, not much of a shiv. Then he remembered all the junk he had spilled to the guards at the door, and he smiled at the blade of grass.

It was for his vacation. For the birdcalls. He clasped his hands together over the piece of grass as if he were praying, and maybe he was. If he did have a friend in the world - a real friend and not just an ally or an acquaintance or a source - then he hoped that friend had gone for help. Flynn had it in him. They had make a good team on the Arva, good partners. He hoped that partner hadn't shipwrecked somewhere, that he wasn't drifting dead at the bottom of the sea.

He had a lot of things to say to that man, if and when he got out.


-----------------------------------------

Auduin smirked, then Flynn Fairwind all but shoved the king out of the way, throwing himself at Mathias and wrapping him in a tight, warm hug. Mathias returned it, a greeting he had not expected, but welcomed all the same. He smelled like whiskey and salt and soap. Familiar. Like a dream remembered long after it occurred, like a word that was on the tip of the tongue for an age, and now captured.

"I sailed like a madman." Flynn pushed his sunburnt cheeks deeper into Shaw's shoulder. He felt slight in Shaw's arms, as if he had lost weight. The crazy pirate had nearly killed himself sailing for help, and all for him. While Shaw had been rotting in that Zandalari cell, mourning his lost chance at peace and rest, Fairwind had gone and rescued that shining little chance. Shaw didn't forget things like that, didn't take them lightly. "Never...never sailed like that before. But I had to get you back."

"And here I am. " Mathias murmured.

"Here you are."

"Flynn..." Show started, clearing his throat, "There's something I'd like to talk to you about. Meet me at the Guilded Rose tonight, will you?" Slowly releasing Flynn from their embrace, Shaw pressed the perfect blade of grass into the pirate's hand. "Don't be late."

Flynn's expression didn't seem to register what to do with the grass, but the flush in his cheeks said all that Shaw needed to know.

- - - Updated - - -

[SPOILERS] Thrall lickin Tyrande's boots -----“I bring you the sincere apology of the Horde.” and promise he'll bring Sylvanas' head to her

Horde leader = Alliance puppet

[faithbane]

Interesting drama, definitely building on what we saw with Talanji in the early previews. She is grating against the Horde. Understandably enough, as the Horde has gotten her people involved in their second civil war in a decade, the sacking of her city, the loss of her father, all with very little to show for it to prove that this allegiance was a worthwhile investment.

I am not sure what you are talking about in your summary here? If it wasn't for the Horde, Talanji might have been still rotting in a stormwind cell and her entire island kingdom would have been covered in ghuuns corruption.
Even if somehow they found a diplomatic solution and returned home, both Talanji and her father would have been sacrificed to ghuun and the kingdom taken over by Zul and ghuuns blood trolls if it wasn't for the horde.

Regardless of the damages caused by joining the horde, the alternative is much much worse.

[Soon-TM]

Thrall...a clown a joke! He has no balls now.

He never had balls to begin with. Maybe in WC3, but his entire tenure as Warchief consisted in punishing his own people and trying (unsuccessfully) to appease the Alliance, to the point that Varian had no qualms in declaring war on the Horde - in the middle of a zombie apocalypse, no less. But instead of owning it up, he just got the !@#$ out to become Thrall Sue and left an unprepared, hot headed Garrosh in charge. He didn't give a crap about Sylvanas' shenanigans, and would probably never have, if it wasn't by that idiotic attempt at assassination.

[Specialka]

The Bitterness broke the scene playing out in his head. He opened his eyes, and there was no tall grass and no cabin, and no Flynn there beside him to hear this tale. His grandmother Pathonia always wore a grotesque amount of rings, jewels glittering on every knuckle, but on her right ring finger she wore only a tied red string. As a boy, Shaw had asked what it meant once; Pathonia had cuffed him across the cheek and he never asked again.

He thought then of that small red thread, saw it unwind, growing longer and longer, until he saw it connect from that scared boy to where he stood now, a line drawn in blood. How different his family's legacy could have been, how different his life could have been, had he been given the freedom to choose for himself. Did Flynn Fairwind feel the same? Doomed to a life of piracy, of theft, because his mother had put him on that path?

Shaw leaned against the cold gold wall, forehead instantly chilled, and wondered about freedom, about how much of it he had felt aboard the Bold Arva, and the man that had been there with him. A man that smelled like whiskey and salt and soap, whose coat had been warm in his hands, as warm as sun-buked stones. He pushed himself away from the wall and retreated to the stone slab, finding only fitful sleep.

----------------------------------------------

On the fourth day, the skinny little troll in the too-big armor slipped something under the door with his gruel. A long piece of grass, perfect in every way, firm enough to take a slice. Like from a fingernail. Mathias picked it up, confused, studying it from every angle. Not much of a digging implement, not much of a shiv. Then he remembered all the junk he had spilled to the guards at the door, and he smiled at the blade of grass.

It was for his vacation. For the birdcalls. He clasped his hands together over the piece of grass as if he were praying, and maybe he was. If he did have a friend in the world - a real friend and not just an ally or an acquaintance or a source - then he hoped that friend had gone for help. Flynn had it in him. They had make a good team on the Arva, good partners. He hoped that partner hadn't shipwrecked somewhere, that he wasn't drifting dead at the bottom of the sea.

He had a lot of things to say to that man, if and when he got out.


-----------------------------------------

Auduin smirked, then Flynn Fairwind all but shoved the king out of the way, throwing himself at Mathias and wrapping him in a tight, warm hug. Mathias returned it, a greeting he had not expected, but welcomed all the same. He smelled like whiskey and salt and soap. Familiar. Like a dream remembered long after it occurred, like a word that was on the tip of the tongue for an age, and now captured.

"I sailed like a madman." Flynn pushed his sunburnt cheeks deeper into Shaw's shoulder. He felt slight in Shaw's arms, as if he had lost weight. The crazy pirate had nearly killed himself sailing for help, and all for him. While Shaw had been rotting in that Zandalari cell, mourning his lost chance at peace and rest, Fairwind had gone and rescued that shining little chance. Shaw didn't forget things like that, didn't take them lightly. "Never...never sailed like that before. But I had to get you back."

"And here I am. " Mathias murmured.

"Here you are."

"Flynn..." Show started, clearing his throat, "There's something I'd like to talk to you about. Meet me at the Guilded Rose tonight, will you?" Slowly releasing Flynn from their embrace, Shaw pressed the perfect blade of grass into the pirate's hand. "Don't be late."

Flynn's expression didn't seem to register what to do with the grass, but the flush in his cheeks said all that Shaw needed to know.

- - - Updated - - -

[SPOILERS] Thrall lickin Tyrande's boots -----“I bring you the sincere apology of the Horde.” and promise he'll bring Sylvanas' head to her

Horde leader = Alliance puppet

Are those excerpt of something ? Because it seems to push the idea that Flynn and Shaw are gays.

And it seems that Thrall found back his honor and is trying to amend the mistakes of the Horde.

[Melusine]

He might be as close as you can get to an actual Morally Gray character in WoW. It fits, since death isn't really evil either, it just exists. And since he's a Grim Reaper of souls, it fits him well. Mueh'zala did derseve to have his arse kicked, just not in the way the dialogue put it.

He did save as many souls as he can from the Maw, and making a deal with him seems like a guaranteed way to keep yourself out of WoW's hell

You know how that whole "being with many faces" thing works? Take for example, in Christian religion, the Angel of Death. What face does he wear? Depends on who you ask. To a teenager, he embodies all that is wrong. To a soldier in the heat of combat, he may be the one he would rather set up the invitation for others to meet, but not actually meet, himself. To a mother or father who is grieving the loss of a child, he is a heartless monster. To an elderly and sick person, he becomes a being of mercy. For a lost soul who did the wrong thing too many times, he might be the one to light their way home. It's really hard to be that being, but his function is simple. He delivers those who die in this world, and leads them to the next. Millennia of doing this exact function have hardened his heart to what he is and what he does, but he takes no joy or satisfaction in it. He just does his job.

Now give that Angel of death a Jamaican accent, a dark sense of humor, and a set of tusks, and what you have is Bwonsamdi. It took me a while to see that. I thought he was a self-insert comic relief character at first. A joke at Blizz HQ, perhaps. Something that should not be aligned with the Horde, or the Zandalari? Well, the Battle against Mythrax kind of caught me off-guard. The Battle of Dazar'Alor kind of made me think he was the sort of Supernatural (the TV show) Crossroads Demon that would make a 7 year deal with you, and then, rather than collect on the deal in 7 years, he would set up an assassination so he could claim you sooner, like a complete assbutt. The point where i wondered what he really wanted was when he told Talanji that he would let her out of her deal if she would bring him the head of Sylvanas. Now, I know what he said, that he has no love for Sylvanas, that she has a tendency of keeping what she kills, but apparently, Helya didn't have the same issue with her. In fact, all Helya demanded was that she not try to renege the agreement. Seems they were on their way to creating a deep character with Bwonsamdi, and just started him out in the kiddie pool, I think.

[bowlink]

As an alliance player this thread is an intresting read, hopefully blizzard does something intresting for the alliance aswell with the scarlet brotherhood and don't just kill of tyrande in shadowlands.

[Syegfryed]

I remember the cataclysm kind of fucked things up, and the quill boar are spreading which is fucking things up even more in Mulgore. So kind of does put a hamper on things in terms of food and water production.

the cataclysm brought lot of water to durotan, you do quests to remove dead thunder lizards from then, plenty to fuel the horde, Garrosh also stop the economy dependence of orgrimmar.

[vilememory]

the cataclysm brought lot of water to durotan, you do quests to remove dead thunder lizards from then, plenty to fuel the horde, Garrosh also stop the economy dependence of orgrimmar.

Isn't that sea water though? I remember removing the dead thunder lizard quests. Can the shamans or the druids de-salinity the water that is now in the canyons? I also remember you have a quest to go after that little cult in the series of canyons, gotta get something that is pumping out bad magic. I wish Blizzard would give us quests to update us on shit we did in the past. Or even an NPC that gives a quick rundown of what happened before and after.

Use to be a lot of centaur here in these oases, but adventurers cleared most of them out. Druids got messed up too, but they have things under control. Still cleaning things up, some of the wildlife is still aggressive. Plants don't attack us anymore, still won't catch me venturing into the Wailing Caverns. Full of murlocs, raptors, and other big angry animals.

[Magnagarde]

I can't make my mind up as to which impact of the decision to make Calia Horde is worse; the fact that the Forsaken will at least partially turn into red-colored quasi-Alliance creatures or that Calia has gone from potentially interesting to hugely disappointing in one expansion's time. They could've left a point of contention open, a backdoor so to speak, to one of the more iconic storylines in the franchise.

I feel like they threw her character in there just to be done with the entire Lordaeron arc that kicked off with W3.

[qwerty123456]

Not only was Bwonsamdi treated iffily at the time by the Zandalari, see Rastakahan seeing it as a 'deal with the devil' kind of thing, but this whole train of argument is nonsensical - Talanji killing Sylvanas to solve the deal with Bwonsamdi would get her absolutely zero steps closer to solving the issues she's complaining about in the excerpt, namely having lessened Horde support and the Alliance having attacked her city and killed her dad. Hell, Bwonsamdi helps in fighting them off during the raid, so I genuinely don't get what point you're trying to make.

@Feanoro

They've been in two major wars, one got them in labour camps instead of killed, which to the orcish mindset is especially offensive given how big a deal internment is, and isnt' all that pleasant and likely to engender positive feelings either. The second was a cop out, but a cop out where Varian ended it with a threat to fight again, having been the one to declare the war in the first place. Now we, consumers of the story that we are, know that this is an empty threat that no one can deliver on due to gameplay restrictions, but the in-story characters don't. Why you would ever conceive of a conflict where we know flat out that one side is omnibenevolent in a war game is beyond me, but here we are. It's why I'm also not going to bother going into their in-story motive, because A) it hardly matters due to aforementioned omnibenevolence B) I have no idea what it is at this stage of the proceedings.

He was treated iffy by many of the Zandalari because of his personality/nature as a trickster god but was also still worshiped and part of the Zandalari pantheon. It's not like he was some random barely known Loa that only 2 trolls worshiped.

My point is that she is focusing on blaming the Alliance when she should be looking at the mistakes she, her dad, and the Zandalari made. She had been reasonable and thought shit out all through BFA willing to check on the Blood Trolls and stuff instead of just listening to reports and believing generals like her dad did but now she suddenly wants retribution when she knows Sylvanas was to blame for everything and the Alliance let the Horde get off scot-free again. They already had to make a several hundred year old God King look utterly incompetent just to make Zandalari playable they don't need to end up doing a 180 on his daughter just to keep forcing the faction conflict narrative down our throats.

[Syegfryed]

Isn't that sea water though?

is not, is proper water, how it came there i don't remember, but water isn't a problem for orgrimmar anymore

I remember removing the dead thunder lizard quests. Can the shamans or the druids de-salinity the water that is now in the canyons? I also remember you have a quest to go after that little cult in the series of canyons, gotta get something that is pumping out bad magic. I wish Blizzard would give us quests to update us on shit we did in the past. Or even an NPC that gives a quick rundown of what happened before and after.

i found cata quests one of the bests tbh, i like the regional and local "minor" stufff we had to work on the factions, later we had tons of quests with the faction conflict and the general plot with DW and the twlight hammer

Use to be a lot of centaur here in these oases, but adventurers cleared most of them out. Druids got messed up too, but they have things under control. Still cleaning things up, some of the wildlife is still aggressive. Plants don't attack us anymore, still won't catch me venturing into the Wailing Caverns. Full of murlocs, raptors, and other big angry animals.

we may r may not have that if a timeskip indeed happen in 10.0, where i think they may do cata 2,0

[Gann Stonespire]

I made no moral claims one way or the other regarding the Alliance's actions on Zandalar, nor do I see the correlation between Baine's actions and the morality of the Alliance's actions. We were discussing Talanji's potential allies on the council and those who had actually assisted her in the past. Rokhan and Thalyssra was brought up. I mentioned Baine and Talanji were also at one point working closely together, and I'm interested to see if we get any indication of how they stand after the events of Stormsong, given Talanji's apparent hatred of the Proudmoores while Baine still appears to be on good terms with Jaina.

You didn't, but Baine did, and it was the only thing
he did on Zandalar.

[Aresk]

You didn't, but Baine did, and it was the only thing
he did on Zandalar.

Could you give me the quest or vignette reference where Baine claimed that the Alliance killing civilians and ambassadors is okay? Between the numerous quests in the Great Seal, the appearances in vignettes at the funeral and the coronation, and the Vol'jin quest chain, I couldn't find that statement, but then it's possible I missed one of the numerous Baine NPC IDs on Zandalar and its associated quotes/quests.