Min/Maxing and Exclusivity: Idealism vs Realism

[Sagenod]

Ion isn't wrong to have faith in the playerbase. I think we all want to believe that the community will approach covenant choice in a wholesome, true RPG manner. But I think the reality is different. Sure, I can see many group leaders (who probably already operate under this mentality to begin with) not bringing covenant choice into consideration when forming up. They enjoy the game and take part in as much or as little of the content as they want, and that's acceptable. I am of this camp, being the epitome of a casual myself. I enjoy the game on my terms and the meta won't impact that, whether I choose to follow it or not.

But as is the big concern for many of us, those who's enjoyment of the game truly is derived from the optimization of performance, and being given a way of my switching covenants despite how time-consuming it may be, will end up complaining about the core component of this expansion until the developers finally give in and cater to them.

I don't mean to put the min/maxers in a negative light, but I think it's clear that the WoW devs are trying to send a message to said player demographic: Calm down and try to enjoy the game. Optimize your performance to the best of your ability without making the game a chore for yourself and eventually burning out. Just like there is more to life than wealth and power, there is more to WoW than big numbers and world first races. There is nothing wrong with a passion until it becomes an obsession, and the unwillingness to seek moderation in the way people play this game is, in my humble opinion, the symptom of a larger issue with the community as a whole.

The competitive aspect of video games is a wonderful thing. But what cost are you willing to pay to stay competitive? When will it be enough? Curious as to what you guys think.

[apustus]

I will pick a covenant that I think will be the overall best for PvE situations, and switch for tier end-bosses if one allows some weird quirky strat or something. After progress I might switch to one that excels in M+ if I decide I want to push some keys. Rinse and repeat steps 2&3 3 times and wait for next expansion. Wow that was hard.


This is going off the assumption that covenants are swappable with some grinding after the first time, like they eluded to before.

[Big Thanks]

I think this all depends on the type of player

1) Gameplay nerd
2) min maxer nerd
3) RPG nerd

I AM a "gameplay nerd" and i would like to experiment or at least be free to play what i want for a couple days...and then change
The min maxer nerd want to optimize on every pull
The RPG nerd is probably the happiest one...

I think is obvious this is a GOOD RPG MECHANIC with a lot of RP value
But i also think is a BAD mechanic for "gameplay nerds"

[Sondrelk]

There are several different kinds of players, obviously, and those might be miffed about not being able to constantly change things. But so would the players who want actual choices if the choice becomes trivial.
Those who wanted convenience hated it when flying was removed, but those who wanted more interesting ground content loved it, because the game would finally be designed around playres actually being on the ground and having to dodge obstacles as opposed to simply not having to care about them at all.

Yes, there are problems with covenants not being easily interchangeable, but so is there for any change Blizzard could make. This time Blizzard decided to cater to players who want choices, and for the game to feel more like an RPG, as opposed to catering to the players who constantly min-max and chase the FotM classes and specs.

- - - Updated - - -

I think this all depends on the type of player

1) Gameplay nerd
2) min maxer nerd
3) RPG nerd

I AM a "gameplay nerd" and i would like to experiment or at least be free to play what i want for a couple days...and then change
The min maxer nerd want to optimize on every pull
The RPG nerd is probably the happiest one...

I think is obvious this is a GOOD RPG MECHANIC with a lot of RP value
But i also think is a BAD mechanic for "gameplay nerds"

That is true for all the systems in the game. It is difficult to balance something like that for both those who want to min-max at the highest level, and also those that want impactful gaming choices that lead to organic storytelling and generally forces them to consider how they want to play the game.

Regardless of if it is objectively the best for the game it is fairly undeniable that those who enjoy Min-maxing have had their time in the sun for a while now, and that it would be nice for those that want more of an RPG to get a go at being pandered to.


Besides, there is still a whole lot to go before we even come close to the realms of Classic, where classes or specs are worlds apart in terms of viability.

[Harbour]

You may see it as idealism, but dont let Ion fool you - he pushes Covenant design NOT out of idealism.

Ion has to push it because stock holders need the systems that bust /time played metrics, and making Covenants unswappable is an easiest way to force people to stay in the game by grinding Covenants on multiple characters of the same class or even the same spec. You wont believe how much people even semi-casual go and check icy-veins, blood mallet and other sources to get the basics of what is the best way to make their character as strong as possible for their own capabilities to play, was it M+5, +10, +15 or +25.

Players will see that their Ret Pally need Venthyr for PvP, Necrolord for M+ and Night Fae, and maybe their off-spec (Prot) need Kyrian, and they WILL level second paladin so they would be able to be as efficient as Covenant allow them to be.

I think no sane person would think that having full freedom and no pressure from stock holders Ion would design Covenants the same way.

No, in his ideal and obvious version Covenants would be unswappable in terms of cosmetics, questing and shit, but Covenant Signature ability, Covenant class ability, Soulbinds would be baked into talent rows and Essence-like system. This would let characters be flexible for all types of content, so their class would be fully powered in all three specs for every type of activity (M+, raiding, PvP), without damaging the MUH RPG feel and aesthetic.

They cant do this because classes would be actually fun to play and (maybe) people spend less time playing single enjoyable character rather than playing multiple shitty characters combined.

It would ALSO be explained RPG-wise. Its very easy, really.

During leveling we helped all four Covenants and THATS why they allowed us to borrow their abilities in rest zones. Cosmetics and other stuff, however, is locked out with our 60 level choice.

They cant do it because that way the whole their MUH RPG premise will be destroyed like a house of cards.

Thats it.

Ion isnt an idealist. He have to do what needed for the easiest bust of time players spend with their multiple characters possible.

[Big Thanks]

That is true for all the systems in the game. It is difficult to balance something like that for both those who want to min-max at the highest level, and also those that want impactful gaming choices that lead to organic storytelling and generally forces them to consider how they want to play the game.

Regardless of if it is objectively the best for the game it is fairly undeniable that those who enjoy Min-maxing have had their time in the sun for a while now, and that it would be nice for those that want more of an RPG to get a go at being pandered to.


Besides, there is still a whole lot to go before we even come close to the realms of Classic, where classes or specs are worlds apart in terms of viability.

I know is "cool" to hate on the min maxers now.
Hey, i hated on them too on my arguments.

BUT

You dont have to be a min maxer to be a "gameplay nerd"

I dont know any other game with customization options "down the line" (example: 10 hours into the game or even 20 hours in) where you CANT "go back" and have the option to try "the other things" to play with.

It would require a psychopath designer to create such a game...a really bad person...in the perspective of a "gameplay nerd" who just wants to "try everything" gameplay-wise.

[BB8]

I think this all depends on the type of player

1) Gameplay nerd
2) min maxer nerd
3) RPG nerd

I AM a "gameplay nerd" and i would like to experiment or at least be free to play what i want for a couple days...and then change
The min maxer nerd want to optimize on every pull
The RPG nerd is probably the happiest one...

I think is obvious this is a GOOD RPG MECHANIC with a lot of RP value
But i also think is a BAD mechanic for "gameplay nerds"

Dont forget the occasionaly player that logs in now and then. I think they just wanna have some time behind a computer and play a game.

I think I am more the RPG nerd Always happy with new stuff and expansions.

[Argorwal]

Blizzard thought the playerbase could use its own self control with AP.

Clearly they were wrong.

[Jamais]

Ion has to push it because stock holders need the systems that bust /time played metrics, and making Covenants unswappable is an easiest way to force people to stay in the game by grinding Covenants on multiple characters of the same class or even the same spec. You wont believe how much people even semi-casual go and check icy-veins, blood mallet and other sources to get the basics of what is the best way to make their character as strong as possible for their own capabilities to play, was it M+5, +10, +15 or +25.

What you described is severely unhealthy behaviour. Seriously, no one will grind convenants on multiple chars for this reason.

This is just one of the several times in this game lifespan that Blizzard is asking their players to step it up, which ofc they won't.

Obsession with fotm, min/max and being best in every possible scenario is a disease, and i am glad devs are trying to root it out.

[nyjl]

Most of min/maxers aren't real minmaxers anyway.

Maximizing your performance in game starts irl, your diet probably affects your dps more than that +1% dps from that talent.

[Zenfoldor]

I'm a numbers person. I enjoy comparing numbers.

I don't find the novelty of picking a covenant interesting. I don't care. I will pick what is meta, and then I will be stuck with the meta, so at least I won't be rerolling alone. I'm good with it. Not a problem. I will fotm reroll everytime, as it gives me a deep sense of relief knowing that I am taking steps towards the meta. It's even funner than getting a buff in the meta. I love fotm, lol. It keeps the game exciting.

Edit: Also anything is better than BFA, even casual systems and even role playing. ANYTHING!

[InFamous Gerbil]

I will never understand people that only want covenants to be comestic. WoW is a RPG first. There should be choices ingame that affect the players power, and it should be difficult to switch or else what is the point of having choice in the first place.

The argument that people will only pick the best , and deny those with the wrong covenants, so covenants must be comestic is a slippery slope. Why stop at covenants? Let's just make all the classes comestic. The same exact spells, but different effects. You see? WoW is not a competitive game and it shouldn't be one, despite what the min/maxers say. There is a reason why vanilla, BC and WoTLK were so great, because it gave player choice.

[Sondrelk]

I'm a numbers person. I enjoy comparing numbers.

I don't find the novelty of picking a covenant interesting. I don't care. I will pick what is meta, and then I will be stuck with the meta, so at least I won't be rerolling alone. I'm good with it. Not a problem. I will fotm reroll everytime, as it gives me a deep sense of relief knowing that I am taking steps towards the meta. It's even funner than getting a buff in the meta. I love fotm, lol. It keeps the game exciting.

Edit: Also anything is better than BFA, even casual systems and even role playing. ANYTHING!

That is absolutely fair. Given how quickly the theorycraft engine goes we will likely see the emergence of a BiS covenant for each class/spec shortly before launch anyways. And at that point it is up to the players whether they want to keep chasing that 1% DPS increase, or whether they prefer to stick to the covenant they like the most, whether for ability or aesthetics.

[Steelcryo]

I think so many decisions are based around how they will effect high level content like Mythic raids and high level M+, it's nice to see something that actually speaks to the RPG aspect of MMO RPG. As someone who no longer cares about high level play, it's refreshing.

For the people upset about it worrying they won't get into groups because of their choice, I think that's a dumb argument outside of the very very very high level world first racing people. Most pugs that will give a shit about something like this will likely be using raider.io or w/e addon is being used at the time and if your RIO score is high, they won't care if you have a weaker covenant if you can still do the content.

People are putting too much stock into who will care about others covenant choices. I highly doubt it will be as big an issue as people are making it out to be.

[Echocho]

Minmaxers are being very unreasonable. Blizzard want to introduce a system where you can differentiate yourself from others of your class other than on by a encounter by encounter basis and that's a very good goal to have and frankly something RPGs need. There aren't many RPG's where you can completely alter your play style from one trash pack to the next because that would be a shit RPG.

Where I do think there could be some wiggle room is how much work would be involved in switching to a different covenant. I personally think a two week time gate like they're planning is pretty reasonable but I could see a lower time period being equally fine. Respeccing is pretty common in RPGs after all, changing your load out every 5 minutes however isn't, that's MOBAs and FPS games.

[Tojara]

I mean, what's the plan for changing covenants at the moment?

Personally I don't care but it literally comes down to balance. He's absolutely correct that the beginning of Legion was probably the worst in regards to player power being influenced by too many factors. You literally couldn't get more than four legendary items for months, what dropped was RNG, and the spec you chose dictated your legendary, which in effect made you far worse in the event you had to change specs at all. Relics and artifact power also diminished your ability to switch roles, meaning that being versatile effectively didn't exist in Legion until the tail end of each major patch, or in the final patch of the expansion where you could target legendary items.

Assuming what they do with conduits isn't completely restrictive (which he hinted at), the only thing they need to actually get right is covenant power and it doesn't need to be precise either. The power gap between some legendary items and others at the beginning of Legion was massive, if they can somehow narrow the gap to a more reasonable level, I doubt covenants are going to be a problem.

Throughout the history of the game the biggest problem usually isn't systems, it's the classes themselves. When met with an obstacle in this game players resort to just stacking the best class every single time, and this has been true during every iteration of this game. I'm not dismissing that covenants might cause some problems if balanced poorly, but more often than not, the biggest problem with balance in this game is simply the core kit that classes have innately. Immunity classes or certain mobility options are usually prime examples of class stacking, and if you want a really good example of that you can just look at how the last two bosses in ToS in Legion were approached.

This is a blanket statement but I'm pretty sure is absolutely true for anybody who is being brutally honest about the reality of pugs in this game. Pug leaders who are forming raid groups or M+ groups aren't scouring your armory or raider.io page looking for every single detail. They generally ask you to link your furthest progression (in regards to raids), or they see what your IO score is. At that point they combine progression information with iLvL and what classes are strong, that's it. I can assure you most pug leaders aren't going to sift through your armory seeing your load out in regards to talents, essences, corruptions or azerite traits. Maybe if you're applying to a guild or are part of very high end community that might be the case, but standard groups? Yeah right. If this is standard behavior for people on this forum you're either a liar, or you can PM me details of people who do this so I can direct my friends to these people when they're forming groups so the possibility of running with morons is lessened. My whole point here is that the hyperbole and flat out exaggeration about people being denied in a pug situation just isn't going to happen based on covenant choice alone, and it's being pretty disingenuous to suggest that.

I'm willing to admit that the balance could be so awfully bad that covenant choice could be a factor, but I just highly doubt it. None of the systems I detailed earlier are ever a factor in general groups. People don't take your shadow priest, feral druid or enhancement shaman because people think those classes suck, not because you made the wrong decision somewhere else. You literally made the wrong decision by playing a class that's seen as weak in the eyes of the general player base, and nothing more. These players upon further inspection could have everything perfect in every category I listed, and they would still be overlooked by a similarly geared DH who takes avoidance corruption because he thinks it's "neat" and does next to no DPS. Why? Because that's the meta, and most people who form pugs check off three boxes max. iLvL, class/spec, and progression.

[Mrbleedinggums]

Make it so that each mythic boss requires at least 4 people of each covenant just to piss of the min/maxers.

[CalamityHeart]

What I think is that when the expansion goes live, and I start signing up for Mythic+ runs, and the group leader whispers me before accepting me and asks me what my covenant is, and he doesn't like my answer and refuses to accept me to the group, I will shrug my shoulders and queue for a different group, or ideally, wait for one of the other groups I've also queued for to accept me.

And when I start to eventually rise up to the level of difficulty where the amount of M+ groups I can be accepted to without being interviewed about my build gets closer to 0? Then that means I've found my peak, below which I'm comfortable playing. Hopefully that peak isn't anywhere below +15, or whatever the Mythic+ limit is where gear stops increasing in ilvl.

I was one of those people who was concerned that minmaxing and the different Covenant abilities might end up soiling the game and the M+ scene, until I came to the realization that the odds of that shit mattering to a person like me, who's not a top-level player and has zero delusions or fantasies of being or emulating one, are low enough as to be insignificant. And let me tell you, coming to that realization has really taken a weight off my shoulders when it comes to my feelings and worries about this game, at least on the middling level that I'll probably stick to as the expansion goes forward.

With that said, I am not concerned. Those who are concerned, whether they're actual top-tier players for whom this stuff is their life or just wannabe theorists on MMO-C fantasizing about a clique they'll never be a part of, I wish them the best. But it took me a couple low keys a few days ago and a cold soda after logging off for me to realize that stressing over "mandatory covenants" or covenant ability balance or group exclusion is fucking stupid for someone like me, and it's my hope that the vocal others (if they exist) for which it is more than likely also fucking stupid, realistically, will realize that and not pop a blood vessel pretending to be angry about it.

[Gaidax]

This is why I do prefer covenants to be a semi-permanent choice, where nobody in their right mind can expect you to flip a covenant for an odd boss or M+ as a raider.

I prefer to upkeep one thing, not 3-4 of them same time. I will 100% choose the best raiding covenant for my spec of a choice and the rest I'll live not being 100% full power in that single weekly M+ or odd PvP run once in a blue moon.

There is meta sure, but for me my main activity is raiding and my secondary activities are fringe - ultimately at the level I do M+, it's all about warm bodies, nobody in their right mind will be sitting there half an hour looking in dungeon tool for a specific spec of a specific covenant for that weekly run.

Just like today I can manage to get invited and do M+ cap in pug just fine despite being a warlock, which is about the weakest damage dealer class for M+ or at the very least not meta. Same will be in Shadowlands with my subpar M+ covenant that is best raiding choice.

[Malikath]

I see a lot of people making unfounded assertions based on their own view of what "game" means.
The majority will follow the meta, that's provable.
The issue that this causes when power choice is linked to an attempt at providing RPG choice has been done in WoD, and it failed.
Failures need to be changed to not be repeated, doing so otherwise is just a waste not worth time.

either blizzard will learn or won't, and there's a long ass list of those who don't and aren't in terms of videogame studios.