SPOILERS: Shadowlands Lore Thread

[Tharivor]

A big problem with what Blizzard is doing with the Forsaken is the extremity to which they are taking it. There is precedent for less "lol evil" Forsaken- perhaps not exactly morally good but at the very least ruthlessly pragmatic in the same vein as the Ebon Blade. It wouldn't take a genius to write, just have them slowly develop a kinship with the rest of the Horde (easy to do now they're in Orgrimmar), make the leadership realise that although they hate humanity the best they can hope for is just to keep them out of Lordaeron, and you're done.
But for whatever reason Blizzard has decided that the whole race needs to undergo a complete 180 to the point that any vestige of their old identity is swept away. Even undeath itself seems to be getting a soft retcon, stripped of its staple themes of trauma, emotional numbness, and unholiness, that categorised even the most virtuous of vanilla Forsaken.

Its a move guaranteed to be unpopular for the simple reason that no one is going to play a race if they secretly hate its themes. I find it utterly bizarre that Blizzard is pursuing it and can only conclude that the current devs simply don't like or understand the original forsaken and just want to remake them into something more to their tastes.

[Minikin]

Don't depend on hyperbole overly. I think you're basically wrong on all counts here, and using "bad writing" as a cover for a poorly constructed argument on your part. I think this aside has also gone on a bit long in the tooth, so for my part I think it best to let other people weigh in on the matter. Feel free to offer further rebuttal if desired, but I'm unlikely to continue this particular exchange.

If I could id give you a medal for your patience lol.

[Destinas]

Speaking of names. Isn't Elune a night elven name? Why is Elune still Elune on other planets and the Night Warrior still a Night Warrior if the Old Gods are Dark Gods there? Why not: "I am the Shadow Priest, chosen hero of Lilith" or something.

On one hand, in Chronicle they stated that Elune taught the Night Elves the language of the Titans, meaning that she simply told them her name, and appeared as a "Mother Moon" to them. This could work for other races and planets, like with Thiernax's people.

On the other hand, the Tauren call her Mu'sha.

In the end, Blizz just wanted an easy shorthand to make sure that the players know we're talking about the same entity, and expand her lore.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

So it's apparently really hard to get sent to the Maw from the Arbiter's judgement. If wiping out entire worlds still lands you in Revendreth idk what it would take to go to the Maw besides failing.

[Aucald]

So it's apparently really hard to get sent to the Maw from the Arbiter's judgement. If wiping out entire worlds still lands you in Revendreth idk what it would take to go to the Maw besides failing.

The only known criteria was have being sent straight to the Maw is to be a threat to the Shadowlands. What that requires or entails is unknown, but apparently destroying entire worlds isn't a significant enough of a qualifier. Presumably it would require one to be a powerful being, tantamount to a god, or else to be a servant of a power known to threaten the Shadowlands (e.g. to serve the Jailer).

[Koryn123]

Mathias Shaw

The king was taken on my watch. I should've had more agents assigned to him. This is what happens when I let my guard down. When I allow my--
<Shaw takes a deep breath.>
No, damn it. This was her doing. I won't blame myself for finding happiness. Anduin would be the first to tell me that.
We're going to find him. The others, too. Whatever it takes.

Uh...sir, this is a Wendy's.

[Varodoc]

The Arbiter is a cosmic entity who existed since ancient ages before even the titans. She doesn't give a shit about single worlds. This is the logic of cosmic entities. They do not care about the destruction of entire worlds because they are not mortals in the first place, they have a different logic and morality. In the Arbiter's eyes, true evil is trying to destroy the Shadowlands, because that would fuck up the entire cosmos. Destroying a few planets obviously sucks for the mortals, but for the Arbiter it does not, because it's not upsetting the cosmos.

This is how the titans used to think back in WotLK as well, when they were still ominous cosmic gods. Remember Algalon? He was a titan construct who sought to purge all life on Azeroth to safeguard the cosmos. Because that's how cosmic entities think. They are more than willing to sacrifice entire worlds, they don't care, they are more worried about the cosmos as a whole. It is therefore not a surprise that a world eater would go to Revendreth if they do not actually pose a threat to the entire cosmos.

[masterjc]

probably everyone saw 3rd clip of Afterlives-Ardenwald

so our wild god Ursoc is dead for good. ilI was looking for him desperately. he was mentioned in blizzcon and never after that


interesting how we see Ursoc and Ysera in emerald dream after death of Xavius. probably prpjection of consciousness?

[bagina]

So it's apparently really hard to get sent to the Maw from the Arbiter's judgement. If wiping out entire worlds still lands you in Revendreth idk what it would take to go to the Maw besides failing.

But MUH WOTLK SYLVANAS killed some people! She deserved the Maw!

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

But MUH WOTLK SYLVANAS killed some people! She deserved the Maw!

I think being an agent of the Jailer makes you someone deserving the Maw.

[Combatbutler]

I think being an agent of the Jailer makes you someone deserving the Maw.

She wasn't one at the time though, that is the whole problem

[bagina]

I think being an agent of the Jailer makes you someone deserving the Maw.

For crying out loud. Wotlk Sylvanas wasn't in cahoots with the Jailer

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

For crying out loud. Wotlk Sylvanas wasn't in cahoots with the Jailer

I didn't say she was nor imply it. Her going into the Maw when she jumped off of ICC could have been the Jailer reaching his power out towards her because it was the right location. ICC has been called the anchor point of the Shadowlands/Maw and it would make sense he would have presence there.

[Aucald]

Uh...sir, this is a Wendy's.

Then I'll have a spicy chicken sandwich, a small order of fries, a small chocolate Frosty, and SI:7's dossier on Sylvanas and all her known associates. Keep the change.

[Varodoc]

Does Sylvanas even have any associates left in the mortal world (after Nathanos dies anyway)? My god, imagine remaining loyal to a psycho who literally wants to destroy the cosmos. Is there a greater act of simping?

[Aucald]

Does Sylvanas even have any associates left in the mortal world (after Nathanos dies anyway)? My god, imagine remaining loyal to a psycho who literally wants to destroy the cosmos. Is there a greater act of simping?

I suppose Nathanos could actually agree with Sylvanas rationale for wanting to destroy the cosmos, above and beyond his slavish devotion to her?

[bagina]

I didn't say she was nor imply it. Her going into the Maw when she jumped off of ICC could have been the Jailer reaching his power out towards her because it was the right location. ICC has been called the anchor point of the Shadowlands/Maw and it would make sense he would have presence there.

So being unknowingly used by the Jailer warrants the Mandible? Sounds... morally grey...

[Varodoc]

I suppose Nathanos could actually agree with Sylvanas rationale for wanting to destroy the cosmos, above and beyond his slavish devotion to her?

I would say that if you rationally agree with someone's reasoning for destroying the cosmos you are equally psycho as that person. Since... I mean, that's multiversal genocide... so yeah. I don't need to explain myself.

Regardless Nathanos will die soon, Sira is in chains, so hopefully that's the last of the Banshee loyalists.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

So being unknowingly used by the Jailer warrants the Mandible? Sounds... morally grey...

She's certainly working for the Jailer but the question is at what point. I very much doubt she's being controlled.

[Nagawithlegs]

Even if Sylvanas finds out that she was tricked into thinking she was going to the Maw to begin with, she was still fully complicit in murdering tons of innocents just to bust out an ancient alien god who wants to kill LITERALLY everything.

Morally grey? lol no. The only reason Blizzard won't come out and say she's evil is because they don't want to get their HQ suicide bombed. They're already going to be careful about when they announce she's a raid boss.