So is the Alliance leadership mostly just vengeful people now?

[Kyphael]

Hah, if only. It would probably give some of the Alliance's vanilla leaders some character. Everyone is pretty boring right now in a game where they've morphed into characters in a never-ending novella. It's like Days of our Lives but with no conflict.

hey wait

[Mehrunes]

Ah you know... work with their allies in making a plan rather than unilaterally making decisions?
Besides, we now know Sylvanas did it very much on purpose.

The Jaina thing is bad writing. There are many holes in the story.
For example, the alliance could have used the vindicaar to break the walls of Lordearon like it did Antorus. Yet, it was suspiciously absent throughout the whole war.

There is no excusing the unilateral horde decision though. That is not how alliances work. We just have to roll with whatever blizzard wants.

What you're proposing is not how fighting works. The factions did make a plan when it made sense and they had an opportunity to do so. I.e. before the fight. That plan went to shit because Vizuul summoned multiple Legion spaceships that obliterated the Horde position. The Horde did the only thing they could under the circumstances and retreated. Properly warning the Alliance with the sound signal (that Varian immediately recognized). What else would you want them to do? Hold a conference as to how to proceed during an ongoing battle, with spaceships shooting lasers at them? Without being able to even reach the Alliance as they were separated by a ridge? Your accusations against the Horde make no sense and go against basic logistics. Also, Sylvanas didn't "do it very much on purpose" because Vol'jin was the one to order the retreat.

Also, while the Alliance could have used Vindicaar to break the walls (though with Jaina's ship it would have been redundant), if the story had no holes in it the Alliance would have been obliterated before even landing in Tirisfal, as the estimate of naval powers in A Good War put the Horde at an advantage, with Saurfang stating they could even defeat the Alliance navy right next to Stormwind, where Alliance would have had home turf advantage with shore defense forces to aid them. Not to mention stuff like how as per the established story only Dreadlord magic can protect one from the Blight or how Alleria warping in with Gelbin didn't actually do anything to alleviate the issue Anduin's force was faced with when they ran into the breach and got confronted by Nathanos.

Did you perhaps miss the fact that Sylvanas turned his country into a toxic wasteland and allied with the cursed worgen who hunted down his people?

Sylvanas allied with unturned (and dead, then resurrected Gilneas). Genn was already a Worgen at that time... Also Sylvanas didn't turn his country into a toxic wasteland. She only Blighted the city. Which was already fine by the events of Silverpine storyline. The Forsaken can clean the Blight most of the times. The only instance where they couldn't that we know of was in Southshore, where they accidentally used a surprisingly strong strain of the stuff.

[SirCowdog]

Well, she's messing with Old God stuff and that can't be good for you

Does Void = Old god? I thought they were two different things. Or am I confusing Shadow with Void?

[Varodoc]

Does Void = Old god? I thought they were two different things. Or am I confusing Shadow with Void?

Old Gods, like all creatures created by Void Lords, utilize Void magic. However Alleria is not using specifically the powers of the Old Gods, but the powers of the fallen naaru.

[Combatbutler]

Does Void = Old god? I thought they were two different things. Or am I confusing Shadow with Void?

Old gods are void minions.

[Heartbreaker23]

We have been through this during 7.0 patch... The lack of communication is not betrayal, it isn't Horde's responsibility to how the Alliance acted when the Horde retreated. Not that was going to change anything, since Alliance's position was compromised, with or without warning.

Check the Rogue campaign.

No, the lack of communication is not a betrayal. The fact they left the Alliance there to die is a betrayal of their temporary Alliance against the Legion. The communication could just have explained their situation to convince the Alliance they didn't intend to betray them. That failed and we got Stormheim and BFA because of it. And your banshee bitch turned out to be a traitor to your own faction. You get what you deserve.

[Kallisto]

It makes sense if you take Sylvanas's words to mean "You call for peace, but you fight back." Like the sociopath she has always been, she sees calls for peace and restraint as weakness, and the fact that the Alliance won't just roll over and die because she wills it infuriates her.

It makes even more sense when regarding Legion how Anduin did nothing to preserve peace when he allowed his dog start a war by attacking the lawfully selected warchief. Instead of offering the mutts head on a pike or denouncing at least his attack.

[Swnem]

What you're proposing is not how fighting works. The factions did make a plan when it made sense and they had an opportunity to do so. I.e. before the fight. That plan went to shit because Vizuul summoned multiple Legion spaceships that obliterated the Horde position. The Horde did the only thing they could under the circumstances and retreated. Properly warning the Alliance with the sound signal (that Varian immediately recognized). What else would you want them to do? Hold a conference as to how to proceed during an ongoing battle, with spaceships shooting lasers at them? Without being able to even reach the Alliance as they were separated by a ridge? Your accusations against the Horde make no sense and go against basic logistics. Also, Sylvanas didn't "do it very much on purpose" because Vol'jin was the one to order the retreat.

Also, while the Alliance could have used Vindicaar to break the walls (though with Jaina's ship it would have been redundant), if the story had no holes in it the Alliance would have been obliterated before even landing in Tirisfal, as the estimate of naval powers in A Good War put the Horde at an advantage, with Saurfang stating they could even defeat the Alliance navy right next to Stormwind, where Alliance would have had home turf advantage with shore defense forces to aid them. Not to mention stuff like how as per the established story only Dreadlord magic can protect one from the Blight or how Alleria warping in with Gelbin didn't actually do anything to alleviate the issue Anduin's force was faced with when they ran into the breach and got confronted by Nathanos.




Sylvanas allied with unturned (and dead, then resurrected Gilneas). Genn was already a Worgen at that time... Also Sylvanas didn't turn his country into a toxic wasteland. She only Blighted the city. Which was already fine by the events of Silverpine storyline. The Forsaken can clean the Blight most of the times. The only instance where they couldn't that we know of was in Southshore, where they accidentally used a surprisingly strong strain of the stuff.

Dude, i know that you think that, but that is not how alliances work. They keep each other informed so they can strategize. In this case the horde should have informed the alliance that their ranks are crumbling so they could organize a retreat or a counter measure. You can think of it as a cartoon story or you can think of it like real warfare. As real warfare it was completely unacceptable. It even informed the enemy as well of their strategy. As a cartoon, it's whatever. Let's roll with it. I don't except deep an realistic story from a cartoon.

[Combatbutler]

Dude, i know that you think that, but that is not how alliances work. They keep each other informed so they can strategize. In this case the horde should have informed the alliance that their ranks are crumbling so they could organize a retreat or a counter measure. You can think of it as a cartoon story or you can think of it like real warfare. As real warfare it was completely unacceptable. It even informed the enemy as well of their strategy. As a cartoon, it's whatever. Let's roll with it. I don't except deep an realistic story from a cartoon.

You can't be serious, the entire thing was downright ridiculous from start to finish if you want to consider real warfare. Making any kind of argument about sound strategy, communications lines etc. in anything wow related is pure insanity

Because that shit just doesn't work, no matter how you look at it

[Accendor]

I didn't say that it was an atrocity committed by evil monsters. I said that Varian died because he trusted Sylvanas.

And I am saying you are wrong about that. He died because it was a trap all along and both alliance and horde fell for it. The call for retreat was correct and logical and without ill intend. She did not betray him or the alliance on purpose at that point (for all we know).
It would only have been Sylvanas fault if she had called the retreat without any solid reason or BECAUSE she wanted the alliance to be overwhelmed, but that is not the case.

[Yarathir]

It makes even more sense when regarding Legion how Anduin did nothing to preserve peace when he allowed his dog start a war by attacking the lawfully selected warchief. Instead of offering the mutts head on a pike or denouncing at least his attack.

Hey, it worked out in the end because Genn's assumption that Sylvanas was doing something wrong was correct. Let's not ignore that part. You know, when she was trying to enslave a Titan Watcher for free resses.

[Steelangel]

It makes even more sense when regarding Legion how Anduin did nothing to preserve peace when he allowed his dog start a war by attacking the lawfully selected warchief. Instead of offering the mutts head on a pike or denouncing at least his attack.

Anduin didn't denounce the attack because a few hours after the attack, the PC discovers that Sylvanas was actually conspiring with Helya to enslave the head of the Val'kyr for her own nefarious purposes.

Serendipity, or justifiable suspicion that Sylvanas was up to something bad. Like she always is. Always.

- - - Updated - - -

Hey, it worked out in the end because Genn's assumption that Sylvanas was doing something wrong was correct. Let's not ignore that part. You know, when she was trying to enslave a Titan Watcher for free resses.

Beat me to it D:

[Feanoro]

Hey, it worked out in the end because Genn's assumption that Sylvanas was doing something wrong was correct. Let's not ignore that part. You know, when she was trying to enslave a Titan Watcher for free resses.

Anduin didn't denounce the attack because a few hours after the attack, the PC discovers that Sylvanas was actually conspiring with Helya to enslave the head of the Val'kyr for her own nefarious purposes.

Serendipity, or justifiable suspicion that Sylvanas was up to something bad. Like she always is. Always.

Not to mention the fact that Anduin has no authority over Genn to hand him over in chains as Hordies here want. The High King role (one of Metzen's biggest "fuck it, too busy writing Horde and counting money" moments) is that of a supreme military commander, agreed upon by each member state. He has absolutely no authority over any of the Alliance states beyond that.

[Heartbreaker23]

And I am saying you are wrong about that.

No what you're doing is pretending I said something that I didn't.

[Paperfox]

I'm just curious as to how the Alliance can continue to trust the Horde? How many times have they been the victim? What part of the Horde is so susceptible to wanting and desiring war? Is it the orcs? Or Undead? Maybe they should be forced to leave the Horde, or perhaps a haircut.

While I play both factions, most of my toons are Horde.

[Swnem]

You can't be serious, the entire thing was downright ridiculous from start to finish if you want to consider real warfare. Making any kind of argument about sound strategy, communications lines etc. in anything wow related is pure insanity

Because that shit just doesn't work, no matter how you look at it

That was exactly my point. It's a cartoon storyline, you are meant to just run with it and not take it seriously.

[Yarathir]

I'm just curious as to how the Alliance can continue to trust the Horde? How many times have they been the victim? What part of the Horde is so susceptible to wanting and desiring war? Is it the orcs? Or Undead? Maybe they should be forced to leave the Horde, or perhaps a haircut.

While I play both factions, most of my toons are Horde.

The Alliance has no reason to trust the Horde.

At this point, I just hope Blizzard leaves the faction conflict angle in the trashbin because they can't do it.

[Combatbutler]

The Alliance has no reason to trust the Horde.

At this point, I just hope Blizzard leaves the faction conflict angle in the trashbin because they can't do it.

People are easily baited by it, so it will never really die no matter how pointless or badly written it is.

[Shaetha]

There isnt really a point to presenting further arguments to you. The one was enough for you to give a response showing you dont give a shit about facts.

But to appease your trolling...

Both sides fighting together (pretty stupid in hindsight knowing full well the alliance cant handle teamwork). The underestimated legion brings way more forces than expected. Sylvanas "betrays" varian (rofl) and sounds the horn for retreat, ya know, so both factions dont get killed. Greymane chooses to not tell varian retreat was called. Varian dies because Greymane chose to not tell him about the retreat call. Forum trolls call it betrayal on sylvanas's part.

(Source: canon lore, not your feelings)

Oof.

- - - Updated - - -



Why would he get mad at the horde? It's being run by his homies who just try to please him.

Everything Sylvanas has done since Wrath is a betrayal to every race on Azeroth. You really need to recalibrate your thinking. Who it appeared to benefit at the time is irrelevant, and sticking your head in the sand because it contradicts your fantasy of what the story is doesn't matter either. Sylvanas quitting the field at the Broken Shore is part of an explicit betrayal of the entirety of Azeroth, so yes, Varian died because of Sylvanas's betrayal.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Pyromancer made an interesting observation in his 'Shadows Rising' review video. How the Alliance and Horde leadership structures have seemingly swapped. Now the Horde has a council with many voices and the Alliance is seeing more of Anduin being the singular voice and being decisive.