Blizzard screws the Loyalists over in Shadowlands

[Skulltaker]

ESO allows you to make choices in many sidequests but it doesn't let you make choices in the main story. So agency there is pretty limited. Which is fine, ESO has a huge roster of NPCs that it loves making use of extensively and keeps adding to them every xpac so letting the player kill them off with their choices is probably not what they are after. Again, agency is for tabletop RPGs or for CRPGs with self-contained stories. Dragon Age let you keep a small number of choices but even there it was very specific choices and they did their best to limit the impact of them in the future games. At some point the amount of permutations becomes so large that you either have to have a much smaller world/shorter story or go with sequels in very different areas so as to keep the impact of previous xpacs as limited as possible.

Yeah, ok, so I remember it correctly. And that is perfectly fine. I mean, WoW has made attempts to do this with you being able to recruit different factions or NPCs, but not that much.

But if you want an actual RPG, you'll have to go singleplayer. Thanks though!

[Velerios]

Hmmm, where does i know this behavior: Being a blind Loyalist while getting screwed all over because in reality, when you are not blinded by faith he (or she?) totally screws you over. But as much as fanbois are they are still blinded by daily lies... i mean small hands... i mean daily golf visits... i mean the disability to walk down a ramp... oh whatever; i mean blinded by unrewarded faith.

[Yarathir]

Then perhaps don't write story that invalidates vision of huge chunk of playerbase, especially after you already stepped into same landmine with garrosh and orc playerbase.

The entire issue also comes from blizzard outright lying. If they just said from start "Its just reharsh of MOP" people would bitch for a few weeks and then would stop. But because blizzard was doing all that facade people have all the right to be annoyed.

If you don't wanna be invalidated, don't back the villain in a world built upon "good" always persevering over evil.

- - - Updated - - -

Hmmm, where does i know this behavior: Being a blind Loyalist while getting screwed all over because in reality, when you are not blinded by faith he (or she?) totally screws you over. But as much as fanbois are they are still blinded by daily lies... i mean small hands... i mean daily golf visits... i mean the disability to walk down a ramp... oh whatever; i mean blinded by unrewarded faith.

Yes, we get it, you're obsessed.

You have plenty of avenues to vent that.

[Arrashi]

But that's not WoW, it's never been WoW, and it won't be WoW. I really don't understand how people keep falling for that.

WoW has never ever given you the chance to change the outcome. Why did people suddenly expect that to be true?

I dunno, because blizzard talks about it and adds branching paths?

And what Issue, precisely? That people allowed themselves to concoct an illusion of their choices mattering? Sure, I agree, it wasn't nice of them lying. But, you know, if it walks like a Garrosh, talks like a Garrosh, and genocides like a Garrosh, I'm pretty sure that's going to give you a Garrosh. Them lying to you isn't half as bad as all the people who sided with Sylvanas lying to themselves.

Nope, them lying is exactly the root of problem. Blizzard genius writers just never imagined their brilliant idea of just reharshing MOP will be found out 5 seconds after BFA reveal. Its all on them.

It's quite an interesting social experiment, though. Kind of reminiscent of the story of the book 'The Wave'. They followed like sheep, and now they are bleating about getting slaughtered.

I think you put too much thought into that. Not everyone here is full metal normie, and some people wanted to see how blizzard will handle the situation and it was just as disappointing as we predicted.

- - - Updated - - -

If you don't wanna be invalidated, don't back the villain in a world built upon "good" always persevering over evil.

*cough* endings of W1 and Frozen throne *cough*

[Yarathir]

*cough* endings of W1 and Frozen throne *cough*

We comparing W1 and W3 to an MMO with two player factions built upon slaying the big bad of the day since its inception?

Seems like your issue with the game goes back to Classic then.

[Mysterymask]

*cough* endings of W1 and Frozen throne *cough*

And if wow was still an RTS and not an MMO then this conversation wouldn't be an issue now would it?

[Devilyaki]

If they are still loyal after that there should be an option in game, you choose still loyal, you character dies and gets deleted and you get the “total simp” achievement

[Arrashi]

We comparing W1 and W3 to an MMO with two player factions built upon slaying the big bad of the day since its inception?

Seems like your issue with the game goes back to Classic then.

Which is funny since classic never tells you what your character feels/thinks.

[Yarathir]

Which is funny since classic never tells you what your character feels/thinks.

But Classic does tell you what your faction is.

And both focus on slaying the bigger bad and then go back to trading jabs.

[Arrashi]

But Classic does tell you what your faction is.

And both focus on slaying the bigger bad and then go back to trading jabs.

Yes, and why i do it is completely on me. You can put any kind of character and motivations and they work well.

On the other hand in BFA you MUST have bleeding heart of baine and jaina and absolutely love honor or the story fully derails itself.

[Yarathir]

To anyone genuinely upset they didn't get to ally with an actual villain and have that gameplay choice validated (but not to the point where they actually became killable by both factions, of course )

Did the player ever get to join the Scourge? The Legion? The Twilight Hammer and the Old Gods?

If no, why not?

[Tarba]

If you don't wanna be invalidated, don't back the villain in a world built upon "good" always persevering over evil.

- - - Updated - - -


Yes, we get it, you're obsessed.

You have plenty of avenues to vent that.

What world are we speaking of ? Wow is in the world of warcraft. Unless warcraft games are not made for people backing up Arthas, Illidan, Sylvanas or Orgrim Doomhamer. Weird that I enjoyed playing them in Warcraft games...

Most people who play forsaken with some rp from war3 don't give a shit about the horde. Same should be for bloodelves.

[Arrashi]

To anyone genuinely upset they didn't get to ally with an actual villain and have that gameplay choice validated (but not to the point where they actually became killable by both factions, of course )

Did the player ever get to join the Scourge? The Legion? The Twilight Hammer and the Old Gods?

If no, why not?

Well for starters there never was an option.

[DemonHunter18]

To anyone genuinely upset they didn't get to ally with an actual villain and have that gameplay choice validated (but not to the point where they actually became killable by both factions, of course )

Did the player ever get to join the Scourge? The Legion? The Twilight Hammer and the Old Gods?

If no, why not?

because Sylvanas wants to set us free which isn't villainous!!!

DUHHHHH

[Skulltaker]

I dunno, because blizzard talks about it and adds branching paths?



Nope, them lying is exactly the root of problem. Blizzard genius writers just never imagined their brilliant idea of just reharshing MOP will be found out 5 seconds after BFA reveal. Its all on them.



I think you put too much thought into that. Not everyone here is full metal normie, and some people wanted to see how blizzard will handle the situation and it was just as disappointing as we predicted.

Really? What branching paths? Because I don't see any. The story unfolded step by step like it was scripted. At best you got to pick if you wanted to walk on the left or the right side of a very narrow road. Just because the houses on the left are painted blue, and the others red, doesn't mean that you're not walking the exact same road as everybody else.

And no, people being gullible and blind and easy to fool is just as big a problem as them being dishonest. Again. Think for yourself. There is no way WoW, in its current state, will ever have a story that can be influenced in any noteworthy amount by the players. Which is good, btw, because asking people for their opinion on the web and then acting on it is fucking stupid.

If you* expected more from Blizzard, after you've gone through 5 addons, then I am blaming you *for being fooled, just as much them. Equally. You* may disagree, but that doesn't change the fact that you*fell into this pit head-first, toppling over warning signs left, right and center. You're* either that easy to fool, or you*wanted this. It's like people complaining after falling for a pyramid scheme.

*You as in 'the people who expected more after everything that happened, the people who feel screwed now, the people who believed WoWs story to be anything more than the shallow onedimensional popcorn entertainment it has always been.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, and why i do it is completely on me. You can put any kind of character and motivations and they work well.

But it doesn't matter. No-one asks what they are, and no-one cares either, and they have no impact on the outcome. Any story that might be there is 100% in your head, and nowhere else, just like with any other add-on, just like with BfA.

- - - Updated - - -

Well for starters there never was an option.

Because you're an NPC in someone elses story.

[Yarathir]

Well for starters there never was an option.

And why was there never an option?

[Raisei]

Well, thats the thing. All the leaders had to do was challenge Sylvannas to Mak'Gora if they were against what she was doing.

And how would that have helped? She would have snuffed each and everyone out like candles, just like she did with Saurfang and would have kept on her course. The problem with the Horde's "might makes right" philosophy that is reflected in Mak'gorah and the Blood Oath is that if you have a clearly evil but very powerful leader you cannot do anything about it.
The leader will kill anyone that challenges him or her and keep on going. There is absolutely no checks and balances in place. If the Warchief is strong he or she is "right" no matter what a depraved monster they are.
That such a system can only end in the weaker people organizing a rebellion against their tyrant leader is only right. They simply have no other way to actually achieve anything.

Instead, they decided to go behind everyone's back and ally with the enemy, making them traitors. Was it for the right reasons? Maybe? but they are still traitors. THey should have solved it within the Horde. As a soldier, you are to follow orders. Can you question them? sure. But, since we were never given the opportunity as the CHARACTER to challenge Sylvannas to Mak'gora (which they should have allowed and just let us get our asses handed to us to appease), You are either a loyal horde soldier or a traitor to the horde. There is no inbetween, sadly.

I can't see how they are Traitors to the Horde if they overthrew a monster that wanted to kill the Horde AND as we know now was only made Warchief because of mechinations by an evil Loa. Sylvanas was the traitor, she betrayed everyone and wanted their deaths for her very own benefit. How is this a "Maybe?" on the right reasons? They. Saved. Your. Lifes. Are you unsure if your character wants to be fed to the hungering darkness or something?

Yes in the absolute technical sense they are traitors, but so is everyone that ever ran Siege of Orgrimmar and attacked Garrosh.

He was legitimate Warchief the entire time (because no one beat him in Mak'gorah). In fact Thrall was never legitimate because the other Horde leaders do not get to decide that. By pure Horde law Garrosh was Warchief until Thrall killed him in Mak'gorah. Thrall was then technically Warchief and still is.

I dont believe her propaganda like sheep. But the fact of the matter is, the Alliance struck first in this war. You cannot take that away, and it simply gives fuel to her agenda. If Genn did not strike first, maybe the Horde leaders would not have been so quick to behind Sylvannas, once azerite was discovered. It comes down to the fact the Alliance attacked the Horde for NO REASON during a war with the LEGION. Genn had a hard on to try and get petty revenge on sylvannas for her being FORCED to attack gilneas.

The cycle of hatred continues.

You could just as well say that the Horde struck first by leaving the Alliance to die on the Broken Shore. Where were Sylvanas' Val'kyr when Varian needed evac for example?
I don't begrudge them that they left. Their position was overrun. But doing it without at least trying to help the Alliance to get away too or warning them at the very least, was spitting on what tender bond they had developing.

Also: "Petty" revenge? Petty? Really? That Banshee blighted his lands (against her Warchiefs order btw.) and murdered his son. Gleefully, I might add. And you call that petty?

[Yarathir]

What world are we speaking of ? Wow is in the world of warcraft. Unless warcraft games are not made for people backing up Arthas, Illidan, Sylvanas or Orgrim Doomhamer. Weird that I enjoyed playing them in Warcraft games...

Most people who play forsaken with some rp from war3 don't give a shit about the horde. Same should be for bloodelves.

Looks like you're about 15 years too late on that complaint and it feels a bit disingenuous that it buds up just now that you can no longer support Sylvanas.

- - - Updated - - -

I dont believe her propaganda like sheep. But the fact of the matter is, the Alliance struck first in this war. You cannot take that away, and it simply gives fuel to her agenda. If Genn did not strike first, maybe the Horde leaders would not have been so quick to behind Sylvannas, once azerite was discovered. It comes down to the fact the Alliance attacked the Horde for NO REASON during a war with the LEGION. Genn had a hard on to try and get petty revenge on sylvannas for her being FORCED to attack gilneas.

The cycle of hatred continues.

If Sylvanas can pretend that the Alliance instigated it all, Genn can just pretend he knew Sylvanas was up to something bad and then point to the fact that he found her using an item to ENSLAVE A TITAN WATCHER to prove his case.

(also, 'forced' to attack Gilneas, lol..)

[Arrashi]

Really? What branching paths? Because I don't see any. The story unfolded step by step like it was scripted. At best you got to pick if you wanted to walk on the left or the right side of a very narrow road. Just because the houses on the left are painted blue, and the others red, doesn't mean that you're not walking the exact same road as everybody else.

And no, people being gullible and blind and easy to fool is just as big a problem as them being dishonest. Again. Think for yourself. There is no way WoW, in its current state, will ever have a story that can be influenced in any noteworthy amount by the players. Which is good, btw, because asking people for their opinion on the web and then acting on it is fucking stupid.

If you* expected more from Blizzard, after you've gone through 5 addons, then I am blaming you *for being fooled, just as much them. Equally. You* may disagree, but that doesn't change the fact that you*fell into this pit head-first, toppling over warning signs left, right and center. You're* either that easy to fool, or you*wanted this. It's like people complaining after falling for a pyramid scheme.

*You as in 'the people who expected more after everything that happened, the people who feel screwed now, the people who believed WoWs story to be anything more than the shallow onedimensional popcorn entertainment it has always been.

Nah, im sorry but you are trying far to hard to justify them.

The entire thing went like this:

Blizzard: *shows burning of teldrassil*
Players: This is just a MoP
Blizz: Totally not, wait and see.

Blizzard: Have sylvanas actually order the burning as everyone predicted to be most obvious outcome
Players: This is just a MoP
Blizzard: Totally not, wait and see.

Blizzard replicate vol'jin scenario with saurfang
Players: Now its totally like a MoP
Blizzard enters panic mode and adds choice to cover for the fact that players know too much

Etc etc etc.

The issue isn't even staying loyal to sylvanas since for vast majority it was to oppose baine and happy friends. If blizzard had two fully separate ways that will lead to same outcome in diffrent ways people wouldn't mind. What people did mind was doing same shit as rebels with "wait and see" excuse.

- - - Updated - - -

And why was there never an option?

Because they aren't part of player faction?

[Skulltaker]

Nah, im sorry but you are trying far to hard to justify them.

The entire thing went like this:

Blizzard: *shows burning of teldrassil*
Players: This is just a MoP
Blizz: Totally not, wait and see.

Blizzard: Have sylvanas actually order the burning as everyone predicted to be most obvious outcome
Players: This is just a MoP
Blizzard: Totally not, wait and see.

Blizzard replicate vol'jin scenario with saurfang
Players: Now its totally like a MoP
Blizzard enters panic mode and adds choice to cover for the fact that players know too much

Etc etc etc.

The issue isn't even staying loyal to sylvanas since for vast majority it was to oppose baine and happy friends. If blizzard had two fully separate ways that will lead to same outcome in diffrent ways people wouldn't mind. What people did mind was doing same shit as rebels with "wait and see" excuse.

Yeah, you're really not making a point here, you're just spouting emotional gibberish. I get it. No one likes to be on the receiving end of a bad joke. But you allowed yourself to walk into this.

And honestly, if people joined because they were 'anti-Baine', they deserve it even more. You wanted this to be a decision that matters, and you base your decision on a tantrum. Yeah, you had this coming, 100%.