Skill only applies to WF raiders? like wdym, average joe dont even raid heroic, average joe does not raid at all
There are WAY MORE "average Joe" with 15 timed than CE wtf.
Are you saying that the current tier raiding gets easier as time passes? thats what character progression is all about.
+15 are trivial to mythic raiders, yes, its even trivial for a lot of heroic raiders
Insane tittle IS LITERALLY THE REWARD for the time commitment of the achievement, as well as other time sinks stuff that gives its own reward.
Organize 40 people? lol are you comparing Classic organization with mythic organization?
Pushing past 15 has no gear progression since day 1 so people push further for fun and giggles
Mythic is the biggest COMBINATION of effort + time in PVE GEAR progression
If blizzard pushes gear progression past 15, and EQUALIZES IT to raiding prog then it would be good, but thats not the case here, it would then overflow the weekly chest ilvl or cap it past 15 so that would make no difference.
The topic is that 15 does not reward heroic ilvl anymore in end of dungeon chest so it can be farmed unlimited times
Good, you should only be able to earn the best loot in the game by doing the hardest content in the game. Back to how the game was supposed to be. and I have not done a Hard mode raid since Cata.
I guess I just don't get the solo mentality. You are playing a Multi Player Game but don't really want to run with people, except when you absolutely have to. I mean I understand part of it because there are times I just wanna do my own thing, but the core part of the game is built around grouping. Im guessing you just haven't had good luck with guilds in general. Ive been lucky and found my way in to a boatload of good guilds over the past 15 yrs. Still friends with a lot of them. I cant imagine playing WoW without a solid group of friends, it would be boring as fuck.
Raids did drop less loot relative to M+, that was part of my point. The issue at hand is that the amount of rewards for M+ were excessive. The rewards are being scaled back some to account for the fact that M+ only requires 5 players, the dungeons remain static throughout the entire expansion, and there are no loot lockouts for M+. The affixes changing do introduce some minor differences for trash packs, but those mechanics are fairly obvious and easy to learn.
There isn't a large time commitment or logistical challenge for M+, so why should it be more rewarding than raiding?
I agree that the rewards were excessive, but I still think this is not the right way to fix it. Just fix the difficulty/time commitment relative to the reward so that it matches mythic raiding. In this case there obviously needs to be a loot lockout of some sort so you cant gear faster with m+ than with raids.
For example, doing a +15 during the first week is shit loads harder than clearing full hc raid, not to mention the first bosses of hc. So why should hc raid give better rewards than a +15 key?
Which leads to my point which is that they went over the top with this. +15 reward should be higher than hc loot for the first bosses but still significantly lower than mythic raid. Or then the m+ loot should scale all the way to +25 or smth with a loot lockout.
Last edited by facefist; 2020-09-17 at 03:21 PM.
M+ provides loot that is better than heroic raid loot via the weekly chest. M+ is going to provide loot equal to Mythic raid loot (for that matter, you get gear equal to Mythic raid gear from doing +14, not +15).
https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitive...n_shadowlands/
It does give 3 ilvls lower than most heroic raid gear for the loot drop at the end of the dungeon, but once again, there isn't a weekly loot lockout on the M+ dungeons themselves. You can spam M+ to get slightly lower ilvl gear than is provided by heroic raids, but getting it in every slot still allows you to out-gear heroic raids by actually filling all of your slots with 210 gear in the first week. Someone who fully clears heroic is still going to have a lower average ilvl than someone who is gearing by running +15 keys, even with the nerfs to M+ rewards.
The end result is that M+ won't be massively more efficient as a gearing route than running heroic raids, it'll require a bit more time but still remain more rewarding in the short-term than heroic raiding (actually it looks like it will be more rewarding than heroic raiding in the long-term too, since the weekly chest will be spitting out 3 items at 226 ilvl if you're clearing ten M+14s per week).
"stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
-ynnady
If players who don't raid or do M+ try to play wow right now, the game overgears them for all content so insanely quickly that the game is over for them in a couple of weeks at most. In older expansions, a player could spend months gearing through heroic dungeons, reputations, crafting, etc.. Now, all of those sources of gear are blown away in an incredibly short amount of time. Players are fast-tracked to a point where the only advancement is through raiding and M+.
I have friends that played almost daily through all of Wrath, barely ever raided, but rarely "finished" acquiring upgrades through the rest of the content in the game. That playstyle is dead. Once you hit max level, the game pummels you over the head with gear so fast that you are put in a position where the only upgrades are M+ and raids in a matter of weeks at most.
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See above.
"stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
-ynnady
Taking shit out of context since Jun 2019 I guess? Should I add a *spoiler alert* /sarcasm at the beginning of the sentence to help you understand?
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Same thing here. The fact that you fail to detect sarcasm out of a simple sentence makes me think I should end the argument here...
Average Joe that isn't good enough for heroic, is not good enough for +15s timed either. He won't be able to time 15s for some time in fact or at all. What is your experience in M+ really? Character progression doesn't apply just to the raiding environment, it affects how well you perform in dungeons as well. Doing +15s in the first week is not as easy as doing it with 30 extra average ilvl.
If said Average Joe does have a 15 timed he prolly bought it off trade or 4 of his more knowledgeable/skilled friends decided to carry him and that will be obvious the minute he sets foot in a pug keystone. It's easier to find 4 friends that are willing to carry you than 19, I'll give you that. But then again if the number of players defines how hard content is then my point about Classic raiding comes into play. 40 man raiding is harder because finding 19 people is easier than finding 39. It's not that simple though is it? Buying a 15 timed is about 10x cheaper than buying a mythic nyalotha carry. And before you jump into conclusions, it's the mount at the end of the raid that skyrokets the price.
Keystone Master difficulty is about the same level as clearing HC, and +20s are about the same level as clearing Mythic. That is exactly why the only realistic solution should be scaling rewards past 15. Current tier was not a good example since corruptions distorted our perception of gear upgrades and character progression.
Well is someone that -generally speaking- kills 5-6 bosses or barely makes it to CE every tier after all the nerfs and gear boosts considered a Mythic raider? The fact that you think +15 are trivial to them early on makes me think you don't have that much experience out of doing M+ at all...
Last edited by SanitariumZ; 2020-09-17 at 03:42 PM.
Extremism and radicalisation is the bane of society
"stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
-ynnady
Don't have the full context of your convo but just wanted to talk about this post here. There's a lot of issues with all the assumptions being made in the post you linked and what you've said (which even the guy making the post admits the numbers aren't accurate and he's just taking a best guess with his bias involved). For instance, IIRC the sub #'s they were reporting were concurrent active subs which is only going to be a fraction of the players who play the game since by far the majority of players are going to be in turn over whereas people tend to look at these numbers as if its the same static X people playing the game at any given time.
That's why you see F2P games like say... PoE only having upwards of 1% of the player base having ever killed their end boss. Because a shit ton of players pick up the game and drop it at arbitrary points long before getting there even if they had every intention of going after him.
That post is also assuming that guilds are using the minimum number of players required to do any given activity. A 10 man guild doesn't just have 10 players, they usually have a bench, they also have constant turnover like any other part of the game which can vary wildly from guild to guild, as well as socials and retired raiders who maintain a sub just to hang out with that community, etc etc. A guild is always far more than the absolute minimum amount of people required to do an activity.
Going back to bigger picture it becomes difficult to try and parse out what % of players who are actually sticking with the game for however long are doing what content vs the total number of players. Or how many players are doing certain content because either they have to or blizzard has pushed players into said content via rewards that that player would otherwise not do without that incentive. Or even how many players picked up the game and spent money on the box and a sub just to do a specific activity but then dropped the game before they got there having only done certain activities along the way that you would count against that activity.
All that is to say its extremely difficult to gauge how popular any given activity is in the game by making assumptions based on what limited information we have a lot of which is from 3rd party sources. I imagine blizzard has much better information than we do in that regard, and allocates resources accordingly. And even then they're making assumptions because they don't know exactly what the player is thinking when they do participate in a thing. Active participation =/= people enjoying said thing.
Last edited by Baconeggcheese; 2020-09-17 at 03:57 PM.
..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.
..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.
They just need to fucking bring master looter back, it in no way effects anyone in any way having it come back.
Useful gear from reps is basically a thing of the past, same for useful gear from crafting. Right now you hit max level and are quickly piled with gear, like ungodly amounts of gear, to the point where within a couple of weeks you have nothing to get except for a couple of weekly quick activities that give you high ilvl gear. You've outgeared all dungeons except M+ insanely fast. Heroics don't matter. Even LFR is behind you very quickly.
I'm not hard pressed to find people who agree with me. They all left the game as their playstyles became negated, and I still know them. You might find people currently playing the game who, like you, think "i dont care fuck em" is an argument, but people like you are why the game was ruined for them.
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The solution is to significantly slow down pre-raid gearing and provide more long term paths to gearing for players in that zone. Players who don't wish to play in that zone can easily leave it by doing M+ and raids. This problem was solved before it was ever a problem. It was a created problem.
The numbers we were able to pull back in the day were extremely reliable because in the data we could parse out active, inactive, etc.. We were also able to compare the number of people that killed any bosses to the number that killed all and do similar analyses that provided insight on this. There is no way to massage those numbers to make raiding look like it was ever a popular activity.
"stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
-ynnady