What's the scolding horde players get at the start of the Ardenweald's covenant?

[VladlTutushkin]

You forgot the trauma.




Um, no. After Danuser refused to confirm Afrasiabi's grand revelations and went back to the status quo, we're back to the last solid piece of information on the topic being post-Cata Forsaken intro, where the omniscient narrator stated that the Forsaken have been falsely accused for Putress' crimes.




You mean the guy who by that point already rebelled and had Sylvanas flee Undercity? Yeah, top notch co-conspirators right there. And the one directly involved with the guards in the Garrosh poisoning conspiracy was Vereesa. Also, the only time those guards were actually ever mentioned in that plot was before Sylvanas even knew it was going to be a poisoning plot, where she commented that even the best assassin would not be able to sneak past them due to their number. On top of that, the very nature of the plot made it pretty much impossible for bystanders to be poisoned, as Vereesa poisoned the fruit that Garrosh was then going to administer to his portion of the curry himself. Not the whole pot (not that the topic of others eating from the pot was ever mentioned in the book anyway). So it's almost as if you were talking out of your behind here.




Name those innocent humans. Oh, right, you can't, because we know squat about their identities. Which means that this trite Alliance talking point is nothing more than a fabrication, because for all you know they could have been Scarlet Crusade captives, Hillsbrad militia members of Dwarven soldiers. You know, like all the test subjects where we knew anything about them. The only confirmed innocent test subject of the Blight is a goddamn dog.




Except when Night Elves broke the trade treaty Thrall was still a Warchief. And shortly after he did talk about the issue with Jaina, reiterating that Putress was working alone, with Jaina once again acknowledging it. Absolutely nothing came out of it.




Not only does what you said here in no way negate Theramore being a legitimate military target, but it's also a pile of BS. The attitude you're projecting on Garrosh here is what his position evolved to after Cataclysm. On top of that, the Theramore peace summit took place before WotLK. Yet even when it comes to Garrosh's Cataclysm-era positions in regards to war with the Alliance, they were a result of what transpired during WotLK and between WotLK and Cata. He had no plans to conquer the entirety of Kalimdor at the time of the summit and the Horde delegation left Theramore on peaceful terms, even despite the whole Garona attack that triggered Varian.

I will just ignore your another attempt at appearing smart and tell you this: in sports people are payed (covertly) to be jobbers. Alliance expected to pay for being jobbers. Sounds like a bad investment to me.

[Super Dickmann]

Garrosh started the whole thing. He pretty much started it the moment he got on Azeroth. He already had the mentality of take instead of negotiate. Before Cataclysm Theramore was pretty much neutral and Garrosh with his actions forced their hand.

Did Garrosh telepathically get Varian to declare war on the full assumption that Sylvanas didn't do the Wrathgate?

[VladlTutushkin]

Oh, please, the War of Thorns is cast as a heroic struggle by a bunch of twee flower children who weren't even the night elf military who the Horde had to deceive and field the majority of its forces on, only to still be stalled by a largely civilian group. I.e, that Saurfang and Sylvanas had to lure the bulk of the night elf military away, assassinate a bunch of targets preemptively and even then had to struggle in order to defeat what were basically the leftover garrison and non-combatants. Anyone claiming that it casts the night elf participants as weak hasn't actually read the novellas. I wish Horde got that kind of pathos for Lordaeron, a vastly more essential element of the setting than Teldrassil and that the Alliance and Horde actually had some preset grievance in for years on end, rather than to have it all take place off-screen.

As for Tyrande, she shouldn't be questing with the Horde at all. The reasoning for her or really any night elf to tolerate the Horde is beyond tortured and we already have our own guy there - Vol'jin, who's story I'd prefer to follow and actually fits with the faction. That she is diminishes her and diminishes the Horde player, the former by making her dislike be a whole lot of bark and no bite, which is inevitable given she'll end up forgiving the Horde anyway. The latter would be by forcing the Horde player to be a TV repairman if they for whatever reason choose to do Ardenweald. Too late now in any case.

The whole Tyrande story is inane in that its end goal is to revert a character change that had no payoff to begin with. They're putting her on the road to 'redemption' by way of joining the rest of the hivemind before she's actually done anything to disrupt said hivemind except kill a bunch of fodder NPCs in Darkshore during a war, say mean things to Thrall and Baine and inexplicably spare the undead traitor she had in front of her. In the pre-patch she'll add killing an undead non-magic user to her track record. All the while everyone from her own faction to her adoptive daughter constantly talk as if she's batshit and is acting majorly out of bounds. For all the hype and what other Night Warriors are told to have done she could have at least dropped a biblical flood on Orgrimmar or killed Baine fucking anyone Horde-side who wasn't already a goner like Nathanos. Even a throwaway line about Horde disappearing in Ashenvale or the Barrens would at least be something. All she's done is brood and now she's being lined up to lose her powers while sucking it up and teaming up with the Horde PC, as if the Horde character didn't wade through her people's gore for the bulk of the last expansion regardless of whether they're a Sadfangist or a #Simp4Sylv.

Thing is - Teldrassil was just a last straw that broke the camel’s back for many night elf players and for me. Heroic or not we were cast as moronic enough to let that happen in the first place and then weak enough to only win back Darkshore. Race was reduced to a joke and the process was started all the way back in Cata. Now you also very helpfully mentioned all the other inane and moronic plots that happened (aka Tyrande story and so on) or will happen in Shadowlands. Add to that undead night elfs that made me quite the game (yes, i still tried to believe that better days will come even after the Burning) and you have a cocktail called “Alienating huge chunk of players by making them losers, inept losers or angry inept losers and part time jobbers”. Amazing. I was fan of Blizz on so many levels and they shattered all the good will i had for the company in one expansion.

[Darth-Piekus]

Did Garrosh telepathically get Varian to declare war on the full assumption that Sylvanas didn't do the Wrathgate?

Not really. Garrosh intentions were known from the start the moment he got on Azeroth. Varian declared war after what he saw inside Undercity and not after the Wrathgate.

[Ardenaso]

Varian pretty much started the Fourth War, don't forget

[Super Dickmann]

Not really. Garrosh intentions were known from the start the moment he got on Azeroth. Varian declared war after what he saw inside Undercity and not after the Wrathgate.

Garrosh's intentions when he got on was following Thrall, it's only when he saw his people were eating shrubs in a desert out of racial guilt that he decided on conflict, and even then he had no authority to do so and didn't engage any Alliance. Varian attacked the Forsaken fleet first thing in Howling Fjord then declared war after the Wrathgate, which as far as he knew (and canon says, but nevermind that) was done by renegades. After that all peace negotiations didn't go anywhere, and even had they done so, which they didn't, Honor's Stand occurred pre-Cataclysm, ergo before Garrosh hit Ashenvale.
@VladlTutushkin

That I can more believe. The Night Elves had a bad time from introduction on despite the mountainous amount of screen time they also received. While their defense is probably the one time they've been shown with dignity for a while and laid the groundwork for a good revenge narrative, the visuals of which were at least nailed down well in 8.1, the actual payoff has been hot garbage. What I disagree with is the idea that they didn't put an insane amount of pathos into what was previously one of the less well regarded player capitals that the Horde had never contested prior as lead by an antagonist that had no real link to it, leading to an unfulfilling conflict.

[VladlTutushkin]

Garrosh's intentions when he got on was following Thrall, it's only when he saw his people were eating shrubs in a desert out of racial guilt that he decided on conflict, and even then he had no authority to do so and didn't engage any Alliance. Varian attacked the Forsaken fleet first thing in Howling Fjord then declared war after the Wrathgate, which as far as he knew (and canon says, but nevermind that) was done by renegades. After that all peace negotiations didn't go anywhere, and even had they done so, which they didn't, Honor's Stand occurred pre-Cataclysm, ergo before Garrosh hit Ashenvale.
@VladlTutushkin

That I can more believe. The Night Elves had a bad time from introduction on despite the mountainous amount of screen time they also received. While their defense is probably the one time they've been shown with dignity for a while and laid the groundwork for a good revenge narrative, the visuals of which were at least nailed down well in 8.1, the actual payoff has been hot garbage. What I disagree with is the idea that they didn't put an insane amount of pathos into what was previously one of the less well regarded player capitals that the Horde had never contested prior as lead by an antagonist that had no real link to it, leading to an unfulfilling conflict.

Thats because Blizz did what they often do - wrote a check they cant possibly cash in. Like with all the Old Gods plot, Deathwing, Titans and so on. They wrote something, figured out that they just cant progress this plot (logically) without ending the franchise and quickly chopped it down to move to some new and shiny (in their retarded opinion) playthings. However they forgot that tiny, tad small, minuscule fucken detail - they just shat on one of the factions and especially one of the most beaten down races and left them to rot. And instead just quickly cauterising the wound with retcons and “All is back to status quo” they decided to made a moral improving story out of it (Golden’s idea no doubt) and cast already battered side as... bad for wanting some payback. Incredible writing on a level of one star fanfics from some low grade fanfiction resource for amateur smut writers.

[Feanoro]

Varian attacked the Forsaken fleet first thing in Howling Fjord

Gotta love all these Horde only questlines where Alliance is actually proactive.

@VladlTutushkin
Well said. I left retail when classic came out and haven't looked back. The sheer insult of how they're trying to portray Tyrande as evil for wanting justice for yet another Horde genocidal rampage was just too much, on top of how bad the gameplay has become.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Garrosh started the whole thing. He pretty much started it the moment he got on Azeroth. He already had the mentality of take instead of negotiate. Before Cataclysm Theramore was pretty much neutral and Garrosh with his actions forced their hand.

Ya none of this is true.

[Raisei]

Um, no. After Danuser refused to confirm Afrasiabi's grand revelations and went back to the status quo, we're back to the last solid piece of information on the topic being post-Cata Forsaken intro, where the omniscient narrator stated that the Forsaken have been falsely accused for Putress' crimes.

Refusal to confirm is not the same as outright denial. There is more then enough leeway to make it come out either way, depending how they feel.

You mean the guy who by that point already rebelled and had Sylvanas flee Undercity? Yeah, top notch co-conspirators right there. And the one directly involved with the guards in the Garrosh poisoning conspiracy was Vereesa. Also, the only time those guards were actually ever mentioned in that plot was before Sylvanas even knew it was going to be a poisoning plot, where she commented that even the best assassin would not be able to sneak past them due to their number. On top of that, the very nature of the plot made it pretty much impossible for bystanders to be poisoned, as Vereesa poisoned the fruit that Garrosh was then going to administer to his portion of the curry himself. Not the whole pot (not that the topic of others eating from the pot was ever mentioned in the book anyway). So it's almost as if you were talking out of your behind here.

You really need to read/watch more political plots. If Sylvanas planned this, of course it looks like she is innocent and on the other side, so she does not loose her standing with the Horde. Is it really that hard to imagine that she had Putress stage a rebellion that she heroically escapes on the skin of her teeth to get help from the Horde against these evil usurpers that coincidentally did exactly what Sylvanas wanted? Come on...

As for the poison plot. You are correct, Sylvanas once again used someone else to get what she wanted. In this case her grieving sister (who she then planned to murder and raise), in an attempt to appear innocent while she had manipulated everything behind the scenes.

But since you seem to remember this wrong, let me refresh your memory: Sylvanas plan is to just poison all the food that goes to the prison, meaning all guards would have died along with Garrosh, Vareesa points this out and is scolded by her Sister for being too soft. Once again, nothing stops Sylvanas' vengeance. Vareesa stands her ground though and figures out a way to poison only some fruit that Garrosh alone eats. So no, the only reason why only Garrosh was supposed to be poisoned was because Vareesa found a way.
"The very nature of the plot" as Sylvanas had intended it, would have killed the guards and she would not have cared one bit, especially since it would have been Vareesa taking the blame.

Name those innocent humans. Oh, right, you can't, because we know squat about their identities. Which means that this trite Alliance talking point is nothing more than a fabrication, because for all you know they could have been Scarlet Crusade captives, Hillsbrad militia members of Dwarven soldiers. You know, like all the test subjects where we knew anything about them. The only confirmed innocent test subject of the Blight is a goddamn dog.

Just because they are not named does not mean they don't exist. I assume you will now tell me that that girl she had murdered with the blight in the Arthas book was actually a powerful and dangerous Paladin and she had no choice? Riiiight. I am sure we both know I am right about this, but your bias does not allow you to accept the facts: Sylvanas is a bad person.

Except when Night Elves broke the trade treaty Thrall was still a Warchief. And shortly after he did talk about the issue with Jaina, reiterating that Putress was working alone, with Jaina once again acknowledging it. Absolutely nothing came out of it.

The thing is that despite Thrall believing that the Wrathgate was Putress, both Varian and Jaina saw the disgusting shit that went on in the Undercity and I think no one believed that ALL OF THAT was Putress, so there is more then enough reason for the Alliance to be pissed at the Horde and absolutely more then enough reason for the Night Elves to cancel their treaty.

The Horde fragged up badly and cannot expect that to just be ignored. Jaina however was still friendly to them (or at least some of them) and even helped Baine when the Horde left him to fight Magartha alone. But she cannot immediately change the minds of others.

Basically like in the present situation the Horde expected everyone to forget their atrocities because they had a scapegoat to blame. That works on some, Jaina and Anduin for example, but the Nightelves are not so easy to forgive and trust, not then and not today.

Not only does what you said here in no way negate Theramore being a legitimate military target, but it's also a pile of BS. The attitude you're projecting on Garrosh here is what his position evolved to after Cataclysm. On top of that, the Theramore peace summit took place before WotLK. Yet even when it comes to Garrosh's Cataclysm-era positions in regards to war with the Alliance, they were a result of what transpired during WotLK and between WotLK and Cata. He had no plans to conquer the entirety of Kalimdor at the time of the summit and the Horde delegation left Theramore on peaceful terms, even despite the whole Garona attack that triggered Varian.

Oh please, Garrosh nearly jumped Varian like a rabid dog several times during WotLK and you know it. Only Thrall holding him back prevented it then. Jaina was present when that happened, she knew exactly what kind of a person Garrosh was and what he would do when the leash came off. Hell, everyone knew. Cairne explicitily warned Thrall not to make that idiot Warchief, because everyone, except Thrall, saw what would happen.

So of course the Alliance had to prepare for that, Theramore especially, since it is so close to Horde territory and very vulnerable. You are effectively blaming them for being smarter then Thrall.

[Vaedan]

Basically like in the present situation the Horde expected everyone to forget their atrocities because they had a scapegoat to blame. That works on some, Jaina and Anduin for example, but the Nightelves are not so easy to forgive and trust, not then and not today.



Oh please, Garrosh nearly jumped Varian like a rabid dog several times during WotLK and you know it. Only Thrall holding him back prevented it then. Jaina was present when that happened, she knew exactly what kind of a person Garrosh was and what he would do when the leash came off. Hell, everyone knew. Cairne explicitily warned Thrall not to make that idiot Warchief, because everyone, except Thrall, saw what would happen.

So of course the Alliance had to prepare for that, Theramore especially, since it is so close to Horde territory and very vulnerable. You are effectively blaming them for being smarter then Thrall.

As far as I know, it was actually Warsong clan who started all the conflict in Ashenvale. They started with deforesting of the forest even when Thrall did not wish them to do it, but he lacked the balls to order them, So they went all LOK'TAR OGAR, basically pissing elves and giving them another reason to join the Alliance.

As of cataclysm, Alliance offensive in Barrens was meant as help for night elves who faced Horde attack. Varian opened second front in hopes Horde will have to divide its forces, resulting in less enemies fighting in Ashenvale. I guess Theramore decided to take part in that to help out night elves as well, which unfortunately drew big bull's eye on them. Jaina herself was pretty confident to maintain Dalaran's neutrality and tried to not judge whole Horde because of its Warchief, until an Sunreaver agent abused Dalaran... So I don't believe she wanted to strike the Horde at first, she just wanted to help end that pointless war soon.

[Mehrunes]

Did Garrosh telepathically get Varian to declare war on the full assumption that Sylvanas didn't do the Wrathgate?

Given his big brain power and intellectual prowess, I'd say claiming he could employ mind control is a safe assumption to make.

[MikeBogina]

Oh please, Garrosh nearly jumped Varian like a rabid dog several times during WotLK and you know it. Only Thrall holding him back prevented it then. Jaina was present when that happened, she knew exactly what kind of a person Garrosh was and what he would do when the leash came off. Hell, everyone knew. Cairne explicitily warned Thrall not to make that idiot Warchief, because everyone, except Thrall, saw what would happen.

So of course the Alliance had to prepare for that, Theramore especially, since it is so close to Horde territory and very vulnerable. You are effectively blaming them for being smarter then Thrall.

The one and only time was right after Varian declared war on the Horde and "nearly jumped" Thrall but had to be stopped by Jaina...

You see how everything you say after that just seems ridiculous? We knew the people we declared war on would attack us, so we attacked them. 4000IQ move right there.

Seriously love the Alliance logic of "Horde started war" then proven that it was the Alliance that started it and then switch to "Well they had to attack first!"

The 4th war was started by Varian who then tried to kill Thrall on the spot, then after the Scourge, they invaded Kalimdor through Theramore making it a military target and attempted to kill thrall.

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Not really. Garrosh intentions were known from the start the moment he got on Azeroth. Varian declared war after what he saw inside Undercity and not after the Wrathgate.

You could continue to spew that nonsense, or you could read the short story Garrosh Hellscream: Heart of War...

[FelPlague]

Not really. Garrosh intentions were known from the start the moment he got on Azeroth. Varian declared war after what he saw inside Undercity and not after the Wrathgate.

100% this, people fail to remember that varian didnt begin war because of the wrathgate, but because when he got into undercity he saw his people alive or dead being experimented on, and just how bad undercity was.

that and also there was always doubt in his mind that the horde was lying, why when we found bolvar was actually alive we freak out that maybe he can mend the alliance nad horde, but well it did until the twilight cult infiltrated and caused a break.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Oh please, Garrosh nearly jumped Varian like a rabid dog several times during WotLK and you know it. Only Thrall holding him back prevented it then. Jaina was present when that happened, she knew exactly what kind of a person Garrosh was and what he would do when the leash came off. Hell, everyone knew. Cairne explicitily warned Thrall not to make that idiot Warchief, because everyone, except Thrall, saw what would happen.

So of course the Alliance had to prepare for that, Theramore especially, since it is so close to Horde territory and very vulnerable. You are effectively blaming them for being smarter then Thrall.

I mean varian was a pretty huge racist, the first time varian and garrosh met ended with varian saying orcs had evil in there blood and that non could be trusted because gorona showed up which is then followed by varian saying he was going to wipe out all orcs because of the battle for under city. Can you really blame garrosh for being a bit of a hot head to such a guy?

[Mehrunes]

The one and only time was right after Varian declared war on the Horde and "nearly jumped" Thrall but had to be stopped by Jaina...

You see how everything you say after that just seems ridiculous? We knew the people we declared war on would attack us, so we attacked them. 4000IQ move right there.

You're setting yourself up for disappointment right there.

100% this, people fail to remember that varian didnt begin war because of the wrathgate, but because when he got into undercity he saw his people alive or dead being experimented on, and just how bad undercity was.

Oh, please, not this trite falsehood again. What Varian saw in Undercity (which, given the geopolitics of the region sure as hell were not Stormwindians) contributed to his declaration of war so much that the only mention of anything related to the Forsaken in said declaration is a brief mention of Sylvanas being a witch, with everything else being about how much he hates the Orcs. Read up on math some more, because you seem to think that 100% is the same as 0%. And that's not exactly the case.

that and also there was always doubt in his mind that the horde was lying, why when we found bolvar was actually alive we freak out that maybe he can mend the alliance nad horde, but well it did until the twilight cult infiltrated and caused a break.

There was so much doubt in his mind that him accepting that the Horde lost control of Undercity to a third party (with said third party being the perpetrators of the Wrathgate) is one of things that motivated Varian to go to Undercity at that point in time. Which he says out loud. In Alliance quest leading up to Battle for the Undercity. As always, Alliance posters trying to excuse Varian have to ignore Alliance goddamn side of the quests to construct their false narrative.

[Raisei]

The one and only time was right after Varian declared war on the Horde and "nearly jumped" Thrall but had to be stopped by Jaina...

And what bleeding right did HE have to be upset about the declaration of war?

Varian declared war after seeing what disgusting things went on in the Undercity, performed by Horde members. You folks always pretend like he was wrong to declare it, but he literally stepped in a slaughterhouse very much like the places used by the Scourge only a few years back and now in Northrend.

Of course he wants to wipe them out and since the Horde is sheltering these evil butchers, they have to go too. If Thrall had paid a little more attention to whom he is inviting into his club, that would not have happened.

You see how everything you say after that just seems ridiculous? We knew the people we declared war on would attack us, so we attacked them. 4000IQ move right there.

Nope, don't see it. if you want to be precise then the conflict started at the Wrathgate with Horde members murdering Alliance and their own in cold blood. It doesn't even matter if it was Putress alone or on Sylvanas orders. Putress as member of the Horde attacked the Alliance. That alone is enough to justify the war, but it stayed relatively calm between the factions, because Thrall and Varian (thanks to Jaina) were reasonable.
Then Garrosh got into power and suddenly we were in a full-blown war with several fronts. Are you telling me this is not connected, that Garrosh did not do his best to heat up the conflict so he could be a big conquerer like daddy?

The 4th war was started by Varian who then tried to kill Thrall on the spot, then after the Scourge, they invaded Kalimdor through Theramore making it a military target and attempted to kill thrall.

Wait, I thought it was started by Genn in Stormheim? Or was it Jaina in Dalaran? Or maybe it was Garithos in WC3? Sorry hard to follow the headcannon when it switches around every day.
The 4th war was started by Sylvanas to fullfill her goals, that is a fact. This much you should have gathered by now.

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I mean varian was a pretty huge racist, the first time varian and garrosh met ended with varian saying orcs had evil in there blood and that non could be trusted because gorona showed up which is then followed by varian saying he was going to wipe out all orcs because of the battle for under city. Can you really blame garrosh for being a bit of a hot head to such a guy?

They literally do have evil in their blood. It's called Fel, that is what makes them so green.

I find it amusing how you defend Garrosh for his reaction, but Varian who literally lost several friends and family members because of the Orcs lust for conquest in WC1 and 2, does not get the same allowance for not being a big fan of Orcs.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

They literally do have evil in their blood. It's called Fel, that is what makes them so green.

I find it amusing how you defend Garrosh for his reaction, but Varian who literally lost several friends and family members because of the Orcs lust for conquest in WC1 and 2, does not get the same allowance for not being a big fan of Orcs.

Thrall didn’t take in any demon blood neither did his Parants or garrosh, they have no more evil in there blood then varian him self does as they turned green just from being near warlocks and fel users and varian has canonically been around warlocks. Varian was being racist pure and simple.

I also think varian is totally justified in how he feels about the orcs hell even in wanting them all dead. But that doesn’t change that he was a raging racist from classic-mop or that garrosh has a right to look poorly on him for that racism. They are both completely in the right.

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Then Garrosh got into power and suddenly we were in a full-blown war with several fronts. Are you telling me this is not connected, that Garrosh did not do his best to heat up the conflict so he could be a big conquerer like daddy?

Garrosh had done literally nothing against the alliance before they attacked the horde he was busy dealing with the horde members pre shattering and only acts against the alliance after it happens at which point the alliance had already attacked the horde.

[Feanoro]

Varian declared war after seeing what disgusting things went on in the Undercity, performed by Horde members. You folks always pretend like he was wrong to declare it, but he literally stepped in a slaughterhouse very much like the places used by the Scourge only a few years back and now in Northrend.

Of course he wants to wipe them out and since the Horde is sheltering these evil butchers, they have to go too. If Thrall had paid a little more attention to whom he is inviting into his club, that would not have happened.

Their defense is always two nonsense statements:
1) Varian tentatively accepted the excuse of a rebellion before going to Undercity, so that's final! He couldn't possibly change his mind on seeing the horrors there!
2) Varian didn't explicitly spell out that the Forsaken atrocities contributed to his decision to declare war, so it didn't! He just walked past it all and didn't even blink!

If those fail, they screech raaaaaaaaaaaacist!

Nope, don't see it. if you want to be precise then the conflict started at the Wrathgate with Horde members murdering Alliance and their own in cold blood. It doesn't even matter if it was Putress alone or on Sylvanas orders. Putress as member of the Horde attacked the Alliance. That alone is enough to justify the war, but it stayed relatively calm between the factions, because Thrall and Varian (thanks to Jaina) were reasonable.

Isn't the hypocrisy great? In one breath, Hordies tell us that small scale actions like Dalaran or Stormheim are MORE than enough to justify a war of extermination. In the next breath, they claim that Putress most definitely doesn't justify war.

Wait, I thought it was started by Genn in Stormheim? Or was it Jaina in Dalaran? Or maybe it was Garithos in WC3? Sorry hard to follow the headcannon when it switches around every day.
The 4th war was started by Sylvanas to fullfill her goals, that is a fact. This much you should have gathered by now.

It's Olympics level mental gymnastics to avoid admitting the Lich Queen is evil and Horde is a pack of bloodthirsty monsters ready to go to war at the drop of a hat.

I find it amusing how you defend Garrosh for his reaction, but Varian who literally lost several friends and family members because of the Orcs lust for conquest in WC1 and 2, does not get the same allowance for not being a big fan of Orcs.

He also became a refugee when they burned Stormwind to the ground, but if he doesn't just instantly forgive all that, he's a raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaacist!

Essentially, what you're trying to reason with is posters who believe:

The Horde levels cities and entire countrysides, no problem. The Horde commits indiscriminate genocides, big deal. The Horde's members conduct "research" that would make the Scourge jealous, eh so what. The Horde consorts with dark powers that want to destroy the entire universe, yawn yawn. Someone judges the Horde on its actions? OMG RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACIST!

[Mehrunes]

Refusal to confirm is not the same as outright denial. There is more then enough leeway to make it come out either way, depending how they feel.

Refusal to confirm means Afrasiabi's earlier statement is meaningless and as such we're left with Folrsaken Cata intro, precisely likle I said. They can make it come out either way in the end? That is always the case, for everything. Because retcons exist. They can also make it so that the true culprit of the Wrathgate was a sentient cactus. Is this hypothetical possibility in any way relevant to the current state of lore? Not really. Neither is yours.

You really need to read/watch more political plots. If Sylvanas planned this, of course it looks like she is innocent and on the other side, so she does not loose her standing with the Horde. Is it really that hard to imagine that she had Putress stage a rebellion that she heroically escapes on the skin of her teeth to get help from the Horde against these evil usurpers that coincidentally did exactly what Sylvanas wanted? Come on...

She did not lose her standing with the Horde so much her city was put under martial law, with her only being able to get rid of the Kor'kron nuisance when Garrosh turned the Kor'kron into universally hated secret police and caused a rebellion targeted at him and the Kor'kron. Four years later. And Varimathras almost summoned goddamn Sargeras to Azeroth after the coup. I'm not sure what political plots you read and watch, but they must be of the over the top nonsense variety if a fake coup go so far it almost destroys the world.

As for the poison plot. You are correct, Sylvanas once again used someone else to get what she wanted. In this case her grieving sister (who she then planned to murder and raise), in an attempt to appear innocent while she had manipulated everything behind the scenes.
But since you seem to remember this wrong, let me refresh your memory: Sylvanas plan is to just poison all the food that goes to the prison, meaning all guards would have died along with Garrosh, Vareesa points this out and is scolded by her Sister for being too soft. Once again, nothing stops Sylvanas' vengeance. Vareesa stands her ground though and figures out a way to poison only some fruit that Garrosh alone eats. So no, the only reason why only Garrosh was supposed to be poisoned was because Vareesa found a way.
Nice try, but I reread all the relevant chapters of the book before writing my previous post just to be sure. When Vereesa brought up the sunfruit and how Garrosh administers it personally, with the implication being that this is what they should poison, Sylvanas liked the idea of Garosh effectively adding the poison to the curry himself and praised Vereesa for the plan. I can quote them if needed, so stop making shit up after you were already called out on it once.
"The very nature of the plot" as Sylvanas had intended it, would have killed the guards and she would not have cared one bit, especially since it would have been Vareesa taking the blame.

Her grieving sister is the one who proposed the idea to Sylvanas in the first place. And did all the heavy lifting as far as plotting went. Sylvanas only provided the poison. And that wasn't "Sylvanas' plan". What you're talking about is an exchange after Vereesa reported to her about Garrosh's meals and realized that they may not make separate meals for Garrosh, to which Sylvanas merely replied that she fails to see the problem. Her callous indifference doesn't constitute a plan by any meaning of the word. When they were actually making a solid plan after Vereesa found about the curry and the sunfruit, Sylvanas praised Vereesa's cunning and adored the idea of Garrosh adding the poison to his curry himself.

Just because they are not named does not mean they don't exist. I assume you will now tell me that that girl she had murdered with the blight in the Arthas book was actually a powerful and dangerous Paladin and she had no choice? Riiiight. I am sure we both know I am right about this, but your bias does not allow you to accept the facts: Sylvanas is a bad person.

Do you know she wasn't? No? Then you're just making assumptions and pretending that it's me who's in the wrong for not entertaining you on that. Which is an utterly bizarre notion.

And do spare me your typical "QQ you're biased" projections that you constantly have to resort to because of how weak your arguments are. Here's some newsflash, genius: testing a chemical weapon on people makes Sylvanas a bad person regardless of whether her test subjects are innocent flower children or the most die-hard anti-Forsaken zealots. And contrary to your usual lies about me that you have to prop your lol-arguments on, I can accept that just fine.

So funnily enough, it's actually you who has trouble accepting that Sylvanas is evil. Otherwise you wouldn't need to engage in headcanon-crafting and insisting that the test subjects must be innocent (even though all the test subjects whose identity was known were anti-Forsaken militants) to claim that she is. Because according to your errr... "interesting" standards dousing people in acid is apparently A-OK as long as they're not innocent.

The thing is that despite Thrall believing that the Wrathgate was Putress, both Varian and Jaina saw the disgusting shit that went on in the Undercity and I think no one believed that ALL OF THAT was Putress, so there is more then enough reason for the Alliance to be pissed at the Horde and absolutely more then enough reason for the Night Elves to cancel their treaty.

At this point you're just grasping at straws because your attempt to pin it solely on Garrosh didn't pan out. The Night Elves didn't break the trade treaty over what Varian saw in Undercity. They broke it over the Wrathgate. And regardless of that, the Night Elves breaking the treaty over Wrathgate happened (quite obviously) after Wrathgate and the battle for the Undercity. Thrall's talk with Jaina about Night Elves breaking the trade treaty over Wrathgate even later. And, like I already said, Jaina was in agreement with Thrall. Regardless of what she saw in Undercity. Still nothing came out of it, whether you like it or not.

The Horde fragged up badly and cannot expect that to just be ignored. Jaina however was still friendly to them (or at least some of them) and even helped Baine when the Horde left him to fight Magartha alone. But she cannot immediately change the minds of others.

Which is utterly irrelevant to your previous point. If anything, it points out a flaw in it. Quite some time has passed since that talk between Jaina and Thrall, since it happened near the beginning of the book. Before then and Thrall stepping down as Warchief more attempts at peace between the Alliance and the Horde were made and Jaina still achieved squat. So why demand mediation through Jaina from Garrosh, when it already completely failed to do anything under Thall?

Oh please, Garrosh nearly jumped Varian like a rabid dog several times during WotLK and you know it. Only Thrall holding him back prevented it then. Jaina was present when that happened, she knew exactly what kind of a person Garrosh was and what he would do when the leash came off. Hell, everyone knew. Cairne explicitily warned Thrall not to make that idiot Warchief, because everyone, except Thrall, saw what would happen.

I do know it. Is that supposed to salvage Darth-Piekus' post, somehow? Not really. Plus, as @MikeBogina already pointed out, by the time of even their first interaction in Wrath the factions were already at war.

So of course the Alliance had to prepare for that, Theramore especially, since it is so close to Horde territory and very vulnerable. You are effectively blaming them for being smarter then Thrall.

I wasn't blaming the Alliance for anything in my reply to Darth-Piekus. But don't let reality stand in the way of your fantasies.



It's always hilarious to see an Alliance fanfiction peddler simply repeat the false Alliance BS narrative just after it was corrected when the previous one was trying to spread the same nonsense.

And what bleeding right did HE have to be upset about the declaration of war?

Varian declared war after seeing what disgusting things went on in the Undercity, performed by Horde members. You folks always pretend like he was wrong to declare it, but he literally stepped in a slaughterhouse very much like the places used by the Scourge only a few years back and now in Northrend.

Which is why his rant was almost exclusively about how much he hated the Orcs.

Of course he wants to wipe them out and since the Horde is sheltering these evil butchers, they have to go too. If Thrall had paid a little more attention to whom he is inviting into his club, that would not have happened.

He wants to wipe them out? How weird that he didn't mention it at all. It's almost as if you were projecting whatever is convenient to your false narrative onto him.

Nope, don't see it. if you want to be precise then the conflict started at the Wrathgate with Horde members murdering Alliance and their own in cold blood. It doesn't even matter if it was Putress alone or on Sylvanas orders. Putress as member of the Horde attacked the Alliance. That alone is enough to justify the war, but it stayed relatively calm between the factions, because Thrall and Varian (thanks to Jaina) were reasonable.

Yeah, no. By that time Putress already rebelled against the Horde and engaged in a coup against one of its leaders. He wasn't a member of the Horde aby more than Fandral was a member of the Alliance when he attacked Thrall.

For god's sake, Varian himself acknowleged Putress as not Horde anymore and stated that the Horde lost Undercity. And they couldn't have lost something to themselves.

Which he did in an ALLIANCE QUEST. I don't really understand what you lot get out of spreading blatant fanfiction day and night, but at the very least can you stop ignoring your own faction's quests when creating your fabrications?

And as @Super Dickmann already pointed out Alliance attacked the Horde in Howling Fjord even before Wrathgate. So you'd be wrong no matter what. So why make this up in the first place? "If you want to be precise", JFC...

Then Garrosh got into power and suddenly we were in a full-blown war with several fronts. Are you telling me this is not connected, that Garrosh did not do his best to heat up the conflict so he could be a big conquerer like daddy?

Except your narrative is a flop even here, because Northwatch attack on the Barrens predates Garrosh even farting in Ashenvale's general direction.

Wait, I thought it was started by Genn in Stormheim? Or was it Jaina in Dalaran? Or maybe it was Garithos in WC3? Sorry hard to follow the headcannon when it switches around every day.

It's should have been obvious that @MikeBogina was talking about the WotLK-MoP war to anyone with even cursory knowledge of WOW lore and basic modicum of good will. So it's truly a mystery how how someone as unbiased and informed on the lore as you failed to get that.

They literally do have evil in their blood. It's called Fel, that is what makes them so green.

Fel itself is just an energy source. It has no morality.

Their defense is always two nonsense statements:
1) Varian tentatively accepted the excuse of a rebellion before going to Undercity, so that's final! He couldn't possibly change his mind on seeing the horrors there!
2) Varian didn't explicitly spell out that the Forsaken atrocities contributed to his decision to declare war, so it didn't! He just walked past it all and didn't even blink!

If those fail, they screech raaaaaaaaaaaacist!

You lot are the ones claiming he changed his mind and that he didn't declare the war over his hatred of Orcs like he actually said, but because of the Forsaken. So it's on you to prove that, because that's how the burden of proof works. And thaw won't change no matter how hard you try to present yourself as some victim of unreasonable Horde demands here.

Have fun in regards to the first claim especially, given how Chronicles v3 stated Varian outright didn't care about that particular topic when declaring the war.

Isn't the hypocrisy great? In one breath, Hordies tell us that small scale actions like Dalaran or Stormheim are MORE than enough to justify a war of extermination. In the next breath, they claim that Putress most definitely doesn't justify war.

It justified war against Putress and his squad, who were no longer Horde. That pesky nuance once again exposed your grand narrative to be severely lacking. Probably why you ignored it in the first place.

Also, by what metric is Dalaran or Stormheim a smaller scale action than the Wrathgate. Do share those those totally trustworthy numbers of yours.

It's Olympics level mental gymnastics to avoid admitting the Lich Queen is evil and Horde is a pack of bloodthirsty monsters ready to go to war at the drop of a hat.

That entire paragraph had nothing to do with Sylvanas. So I wouldn't talk about mental gymnastics here if I were you.

He also became a refugee when they burned Stormwind to the ground, but if he doesn't just instantly forgive all that, he's a raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaacist!

Essentially, what you're trying to reason with is posters who believe:

The Horde levels cities and entire countrysides, no problem. The Horde commits indiscriminate genocides, big deal. The Horde's members conduct "research" that would make the Scourge jealous, eh so what. The Horde consorts with dark powers that want to destroy the entire universe, yawn yawn. Someone judges the Horde on its actions? OMG RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACIST!

Oh, yeah, @Daemos daemonium is numbers one Horde partisan on the forum. Also, what's with the raaaaaaacist saltiness? Wait, lemme guess. Is it your newest deflection from how weak and wrong your posts are?