If the Alliance accepted the Forsaken

[Razion]

It might have changed a lot. For starters, they would have had the support of the Alliance in dealing with the Scarlet Crusade - which is a big deal. Second, the Alliance would still have set up in Lordaeron. And considering the Blood Elves connected with the Forsaken on the back of their shared disconnect from others and Sylvanas, perhaps it would have been the Blood Elves that joined the Alliance too. Also, that by extension means the Nightborne would have joined the Alliance as well. And without Nathanos rescuing Talanji, the Zandalari may never have accepted the Horde.

[Feanoro]

I mean for me Forsaken are probably one of the most relatible race of people. A group of people that were killed, deformed and forced to serve their oppressors until eventually freed and lost. The Forsaken didn't choose their fate, they're refugees and victims.

Any sympathy for them went out the window the minute they decided to be NuScourge, when it went from understandable "Beware the living." to "Death to the living!"

[matrix123mko]

I think this Sylvanas would still be the same macciavellian Dark Lady we love but she would focus all her efforts on fighting Scourge. After that, she would jump off Icecrown Citadel and see Jailer. We do not know what he told to her in our timeline so we cannot predict alternate outcome for Alliance Sylvanas.

[mightykong]

The whole "disappearing ambassadors" was a post-facto justification. They decided to put playable "Scourge" in the Horde (when you look at early design docs and pictures of whiteboards, Forsaken are called Scourge), and only much later did they bother with a reason beyond "Nature loving Tauren felt sad for the wildly unnatural abominations".

In the WoW Diary book it was detailed that was always a mistake made by devs and was not part of the design. The devs had to be told repeatedly that the undead playable race were not Scourge.

[Feanoro]

In the WoW Diary book it was detailed that was always a mistake made by devs and was not part of the design. The devs had to be told repeatedly that the undead playable race were not Scourge.

I just assumed they were using it as shorthand, wasn't commenting in any other manner. I was more focused on the addition of Forsaken to Thrall's Horde was barely explained, and the ambassadors bit came years later.

[Super Dickmann]

Depends on Sylvanas' ultimate agenda and/or if she had a grudge against the Alliance for producing Arthas (the Human who killed her and nearly destroyed her entire nation), using the capital she garnered from their strong rejection to sell for better terms with the Horde shortly afterward. As for the PvP quests you refer to, there's a Horde analog asking for "Human Bone Chips," as well - so I'm not sure I would put a great deal of stock in that, either. Archbishop Benedictus was also outed as a servant of the Twilight's Hammer, so taking his spiritual views as "Stormwind's actual holy doctrine" might also be something of a stretch.

We don't need to theorize what her motive was, we're told it outright - she wanted to kill Arthas in the long term and meant to kill herself after her. She sought allies so she could survive doing so. Her only emotional tie to the Forsaken comes later, or didn't, depending on which version was current at the time. If the Alliance could fulfill that goal for her she would do so. Again, she sides with Varian in fighting the Legion and in toppling Garrosh because it suited goals that were practical but far from as emotionally key as her killing of Arthas. As said, I'm at a loss of what to add on this, since it's all black on white. You need to actively try to wring something else out of it than the extremely obvious, so I will cap it off here.

Let's talk about something else instead - The Horde analog quest is also canon, it's fairly clear he's talking about the plague and the Forsaken gathering samples and body parts for that is as old as the game. Ditto, not only is Benedictus being a cultist not the case at the time, he only became one in Cataclysm, but it's also irrelevant since no one knew this even in Cataclysm until the very end and he was still the highest ranking religious authority so his words were holy writ. And even if they weren't holy writ and people inexplicably didn't follow the Archbishop and Benedictus was also a quantum cultist, the same view of 'better dead than undead' is repeated as being widespread among the population of Stormwind and among the entire Alliance leadership before God-King Anduin enlightens those philistines and they all come around. It's really not that complicated - the Alliance killed the messengers, an entirely rational choice given their knowledge at the time and the Forsaken's belief that humanity strived to wipe them out was at the time correct.

[Varodoc]

That's only if she still commits suicide on top of ICC. She could be in a different place of mind and believe to keep living.

I doubt that. She would've used the Alliance as a mere instrument to gain vengeance. She was a creature consumed by hatred for Arthas. Once he died, she would be gone too. She had no love for herself, as she considered her Undeath condition a terrible torment she wanted to be rid of.

[Aucald]

Let's talk about something else instead - The Horde analog quest is also canon, it's fairly clear he's talking about the plague and the Forsaken gathering samples and body parts for that is as old as the game. Ditto, not only is Benedictus being a cultist not the case at the time, he only became one in Cataclysm, but it's also irrelevant since no one knew this even in Cataclysm until the very end and he was still the highest ranking religious authority so his words were holy writ. And even if they weren't holy writ and people inexplicably didn't follow the Archbishop and Benedictus was also a quantum cultist, the same view of 'better dead than undead' is repeated as being widespread among the population of Stormwind and among the entire Alliance leadership before God-King Anduin enlightens those philistines and they all come around. It's really not that complicated - the Alliance killed the messengers, an entirely rational choice given their knowledge at the time and the Forsaken's belief that humanity strived to wipe them out was at the time correct.

He's talking about the Blight and "curing the Human condition," e.g. killing them all, but yes that is also true. What I mean is that those quests are very obviously Horde/Alliance analogs, that's more or less the reason they exist from a gameplay standpoint. PvP content has always had a bit of a lesser claiming when it comes to lore, at least in my eyes, due to its variable and entirely inconclusive nature. Also the fact that Benedictus could become a Twilight cultist implies he had preexisting issues that his epiphany concerning Deathwing was only the tipping point of - one doesn't 180 instantly insofar as one's religious views are concerned, embracing the exact opposite view one originally had due to a single event. People can also disagree one specific points of religious doctrine, or at least take different interpretations, and given that no one else ever talks about this specific element of the worship of the Light in Stormwind it's safe to say that this is either a fringe take or it was done specifically in this context (Alterac Valley) for ulterior reasons. You're stretching existing canon in the attempt to cover a frame that is otherwise threadbare - examples such as Belamoore, the Argent Dawn (who support and even revere the undead Leonid Bartholomew), and the entirety of the Conclave all belie your assertion that hatred of the Forsaken is necessarily baked into Human culture. Anduin didn't change Stormwindian culture essentially overnight, time and experience with the Forsaken did.

[omeomorfismo]

It's what should've happened in-universe. Realistically, I don't even think "the Forsaken" faction itself would last long. Most of the former slaves of the scourge would get better and simply rejoin their families. Forsaken being in the Horde is still the most fucking retarded thing in WoW. The thing they tried to do in Before the Storm with rejoining of families is what should've happened RIGHT after they took back Lorderon. This is why introduction of Death Knights is so dumb, it completely ignores at times even contradicts the Forsaken thing.

it happened, and the result was that they were hunted and killed by their relatives

- - - Updated - - -

In the WoW Diary book it was detailed that was always a mistake made by devs and was not part of the design. The devs had to be told repeatedly that the undead playable race were not Scourge.

werent the devs divided between let them being pure sociopath evils (so more or less playable scourge) and misundestanded monsters? and that the former were so passionate and the majority that metzen wrote something between the 2 stances?

[Super Dickmann]

He's talking about the Blight and "curing the Human condition," e.g. killing them all, but yes that is also true. What I mean is that those quests are very obviously Horde/Alliance analogs, that's more or less the reason they exist from a gameplay standpoint. PvP content has always had a bit of a lesser claiming when it comes to lore, at least in my eyes, due to its variable and entirely inconclusive nature. Also the fact that Benedictus could become a Twilight cultist implies he had preexisting issues that his epiphany concerning Deathwing was only the tipping point of - one doesn't 180 instantly insofar as one's religious views are concerned, embracing the exact opposite view one originally had due to a single event. People can also disagree one specific points of religious doctrine, or at least take different interpretations, and given that no one else ever talks about this specific element of the worship of the Light in Stormwind it's safe to say that this is either a fringe take or it was done specifically in this context (Alterac Valley) for ulterior reasons. You're stretching existing canon in the attempt to cover a frame that is otherwise threadbare - examples such as Belamoore, the Argent Dawn (who support and even revere the undead Leonid Bartholomew), and the entirety of the Conclave all belie your assertion that hatred of the Forsaken is necessarily baked into Human culture. Anduin didn't change Stormwindian culture essentially overnight, time and experience with the Forsaken did.

It's what I was getting at when I mentioned the plague, he's gathering the samples as part of the experiments in devising what'd become the New Plague/Blight and kill humanity, which is a common goal in Forsaken questing. I don't see why we'd consider PvP quests non-canon especially ones that are fairly innocuous and tie into what we're repeated even in a book who's conceit is driving a stake into the human-undead conflict as being the starting point. What the Forsaken NPC does is entirely in line with the Forsaken and what the human does is entirely in line with Stormwind's positions at the time.

Whether Benedictus had issues or not is irrelevant to his position and outreach, as well as how that message was treated - in Vanilla, a Scarlet emissary was considered perfectly fine in Stormwind, it's only those with more in-depth familiarity who call the Scarlets out as being beyond the pale, not those in the capital. There's no stretching of canon to it - the position of the highest Church authority is the moral imperative to destroy the undead, the Alliance leadership in their totality tell Anduin to go away and only pull a 180 at the end when they're overwhelmed by his goodness and rectitude and the people of Stormwind are described as having the same opinion, and this is years and years later in an Alliance that accept Death Knights, warlocks and void elves.

Back in Vanilla, the Conclave wasn't extant and the Argent Dawn were a smallorganisation - the most powerful and organized forces of humanity at the time, the Scarlet Crusade and the Kingdom of Stormwind had as their doctrine the destruction of the Forsaken. The whole point of BTS is to reframe that as being entirely because of deception, ignorance and societal pressure and overcome it, but while the cause in the post-BTS canon is different, the starting point of the Human Kingdoms, not all humans everywhere, believing the undead are to be destroyed is the same. It's the groundwork by organisations like the now Argent Crusade and Conclave that, in BTS and on, are the tools to help alleviate this problem through familiarity because the undeath-living divide has been very much de-emphasized, but that problem is still acknowledged so those groups can then easily resolve it. It's not the starting point. Nothing in the new canon contradicts this prior lore, indeed, it's dependant on it to hype up the breadth of Anduin and Calia's achievement.

[Aucald]

It's what I was getting at when I mentioned the plague, he's gathering the samples as part of the experiments in devising what'd become the New Plague/Blight and kill humanity, which is a common goal in Forsaken questing. I don't see why we'd consider PvP quests non-canon especially ones that are fairly innocuous and tie into what we're repeated even in a book who's conceit is driving a stake into the human-undead conflict as being the starting point. What the Forsaken NPC does is entirely in line with the Forsaken and what the human does is entirely in line with Stormwind's positions at the time.

I don't consider them non-canon, but I do consider them relatively soft all the same. I mean there are quests in PvP zones to kill NPC's that are nonetheless alive later on in WoW canon (such as the various AV generals, lieutenants, and so forth) - they are by their nature reflective and not necessarily definitive. While I do think there was a canon Human NPC actively exhorting PC's to collect Forsaken hearts, I'm saying this may not necessarily be a lore-based thing but more an excuse for this particular person to justify murdering other people on a battleground. The same would be true for the corresponding Horde quest about collecting bone chips, which could ostensibly be for research into the Blight but could just as easily be an excuse to slaughter the Alliance. As for it being "in line with Stormwind's positions" I'd say not so much, both due to the preceding rationale as well as the aforementioned issues with Benedictus' revealed sympathies and likely deteriorating faith.

Whether Benedictus had issues or not is irrelevant to his position and outreach, as well as how that message was treated - in Vanilla, a Scarlet emissary was considered perfectly fine in Stormwind, it's only those with more in-depth familiarity who call the Scarlets out as being beyond the pale, not those in the capital. There's no stretching of canon to it - the position of the highest Church authority is the moral imperative to destroy the undead, the Alliance leadership in their totality tell Anduin to go away and only pull a 180 at the end when they're overwhelmed by his goodness and rectitude and the people of Stormwind are described as having the same opinion, and this is years and years later in an Alliance that accept Death Knights, warlocks and void elves.

I don't think you can so easily push Benedictus' revealed state so easily under the carpet, not discount what his motives might have been in courting the Scarlet Crusade. Not that that matters, as most people in Stormwind didn't know about the true nature of the Scarlets, and only considered them a slightly more zealous sect of the Church of the Light. Balnazzar made sure to engineer as such, so that doesn't really speak to your argument very well either. I'm not even saying that Stormwind had considerable fear of the undead (stemming from the legacy of the Third War), just that I don't think the NPC in AV really represents that view in an effective sense. Fear of the Forsaken and Scourge is also not tantamount to unending hatred, either.

Back in Vanilla, the Conclave wasn't extant and the Argent Dawn were a small organisation - the most powerful and organized forces of humanity at the time, the Scarlet Crusade and the Kingdom of Stormwind had as their doctrine the destruction of the Forsaken. The whole point of BTS is to reframe that as being entirely because of deception, ignorance and societal pressure and overcome it, but while the cause in the post-BTS canon is different, the starting point of the Human Kingdoms, not all humans everywhere, believing the undead are to be destroyed is the same. It's the groundwork by organisations like the now Argent Crusade and Conclave that, in BTS and on, are the tools to help alleviate this problem through familiarity because the undeath-living divide has been very much de-emphasized, but that problem is still acknowledged so those groups can then easily resolve it. It's not the starting point. Nothing in the new canon contradicts this prior lore, indeed, it's dependant on it to hype up the breadth of Anduin and Calia's achievement.

Back in Vanilla, the Alliance didn't really have a firm grasp on whether or not the Forsaken were different from the Scourge, but as demonstrated by the Argent Dawn and Warden Belamoore's studies they were starting to understand that. The size of Argent Dawn isn't material either, they were still a powerful organization who nonetheless was integrating Forsaken into their ranks. This also belies your assertions about Before the Storm as the groundwork for the Gathering was being sown a long, long time before Legion and BfA, as previously mentioned. The Human nations feared and sometimes hated the Forsaken because of the legacy of the Scourge, but slowly but surely they learned that the Forsaken and Scourge were not the same, up to the point that they finally were able to try to forge peace and even broach some degree of reintegration.

[tommyhil622]

Idk I just never see the Alliance accepting the Forsaken while since vanilla and prior they been abducting humans and other members including civilians and doing experiments on them.

[NorthernDragon]

Any sympathy for them went out the window the minute they decided to be NuScourge, when it went from understandable "Beware the living." to "Death to the living!"

Eh? Most of the Forsaken are civilians. It was only the fanatical Sylvanas loyalists that were DEATH TO THE LIVING and they're pretty much dead or wanted criminals

[Super Dickmann]

I don't consider them non-canon, but I do consider them relatively soft all the same. I mean there are quests in PvP zones to kill NPC's that are nonetheless alive later on in WoW canon (such as the various AV generals, lieutenants, and so forth) - they are by their nature reflective and not necessarily definitive. While I do think there was a canon Human NPC actively exhorting PC's to collect Forsaken hearts, I'm saying this may not necessarily be a lore-based thing but more an excuse for this particular person to justify murdering other people on a battleground. The same would be true for the corresponding Horde quest about collecting bone chips, which could ostensibly be for research into the Blight but could just as easily be an excuse to slaughter the Alliance. As for it being "in line with Stormwind's positions" I'd say not so much, both due to the preceding rationale as well as the aforementioned issues with Benedictus' revealed sympathies and likely deteriorating faith.

I don't see how Benedictus's faith would in any way have to be deteriorating to take the position that he does, but I'll cover that in the next paragraph. I'll simply say that there's no reason to disregard this piece of canon or downplay it - yes it serves a gameplay purpose, but so does much every other quest, and this isn't a situation where latter material contradicts it. The Forsaken NPC's actions are pretty in line with his faction, and nothing about the human NPC's actions are contradicted elsewhere. If you can find me a bit where Stormwind disavows this practice or of humans rejecting Benedictus' teachings, I'd take it, but to my knowledge there isn't any. Indeed, your whole argument seems to be based on conflating a discussion that's chiefly about Stormwind to being about humans everywhere, with the tolerance of the latter when exposed to very positive examples of the Forsaken somehow filtering back to those who've encountered far less friendly ones and don't have that exposure.

I don't think you can so easily push Benedictus' revealed state so easily under the carpet, not discount what his motives might have been in courting the Scarlet Crusade. Not that that matters, as most people in Stormwind didn't know about the true nature of the Scarlets, and only considered them a slightly more zealous sect of the Church of the Light. Balnazzar made sure to engineer as such, so that doesn't really speak to your argument very well either. I'm not even saying that Stormwind had considerable fear of the undead (stemming from the legacy of the Third War), just that I don't think the NPC in AV really represents that view in an effective sense. Fear of the Forsaken and Scourge is also not tantamount to unending hatred, either.

All of what you say here is true, but I don't see its relevance in contradicting my point. Is it true that Benedictus might have a proclivity towards radicalism already given he decided ending the world later was a nice idea? Sure, though I'd argue you really don't need to be some kind of madman to kill undead who're against the existence of your faith and who've killed everyone they've ever met thus far. But he was still the highly respected Archbishop and the spiritual center of Stormwind. Is it true that the people of Stormwind didn't know who the Scarlets were except people who fought the undead up front? Sure, but considering their whole premise is reclaiming Lordaeron, the aforementioned quest re: Benedictus's position and the attitudes we already covered that shows the citizens were in agreement with the positions of the state and church I don't see this being relevant. They might have changed their minds if buddying up with the Forsaken or were just told nice things - Anduin does that, so it's canon, it's also not very difficult to do this evidently, but the fact is it wasn't done, and the fact that it wasn't done and attitudes were thus hostile is the foundation of the relations between the two and informs them up until the Gathering when it comes to the state actors of Stormwind and the Alliance at large and the Forsaken state. The fact that Benedictus' views, which if we accept your premise were radical in some way were still essentially the baseline among both the Alliance leadership and the people at the time of BTS shows their longevity and the lack of breakthrough in pro-undead positions prior to that point within Stormwind.

Back in Vanilla, the Alliance didn't really have a firm grasp on whether or not the Forsaken were different from the Scourge, but as demonstrated by the Argent Dawn and Warden Belamoore's studies they were starting to understand that. The size of Argent Dawn isn't material either, they were still a powerful organization who nonetheless was integrating Forsaken into their ranks. This also belies your assertions about Before the Storm as the groundwork for the Gathering was being sown a long, long time before Legion and BfA, as previously mentioned. The Human nations feared and sometimes hated the Forsaken because of the legacy of the Scourge, but slowly but surely they learned that the Forsaken and Scourge were not the same, up to the point that they finally were able to try to forge peace and even broach some degree of reintegration.

Yes, since Vanilla a handful undead have had positive interactions with non-Stormwind humans. I won't rehash why Darkmar leaving a free society of his own volition because of moral reasons isn't the same as the entire population having to be rescued from a cartoonish police state, but I will say that this has no relevance to my argument. Prior to BTS, all of this befriending took place largely out of public view on a very small scale as compared to the much more public actions towards and especially by the Forsaken. Everything you've said up to this point does nothing except stress the point that there existed a state of hostility at the start of all this - it has changed in canon, as before the nature of undeath and human attitudes were much more hostile, whereas now it's almost entirely social and very easy to repair, but the hostility is still the beginning point, and none of the actions that took place in Vanilla were retconned as of yet. This gap must exist and must be severe - as indeed it's presented to us in BTS, for it to be mended by Anduin, as that's the whole purpose of the book.

[NorthernDragon]

I doubt that. She would've used the Alliance as a mere instrument to gain vengeance. She was a creature consumed by hatred for Arthas. Once he died, she would be gone too. She had no love for herself, as she considered her Undeath condition a terrible torment she wanted to be rid of.

The thing is however is that she would've had her sister and nephews

[Varodoc]

The thing is however is that she would've had her sister and nephews

Vereesa entered the picture only in WotLK, and she wasn't really a relevant Alliance character. I doubt the time they would've spent together in WotLK would've changed Sylvanas' mentality in any meaningful way.

I'm sure Vereesa would also approve of Sylvanas committing suicide... she'd understand that her sister finds no joy in her existence, and would comprehend her frustration and desire to put an end to her agony once her thirst for vengeance is sated.

[NorthernDragon]

Vereesa entered the picture only in WotLK, and she wasn't really a relevant Alliance character. I doubt the time they would've spent together in WotLK would've changed Sylvanas' mentality in any meaningful way.

I'm sure Vereesa would also approve of Sylvanas committing suicide... she'd understand that her sister finds no joy in her existence, and would comprehend her frustration and desire to put an end to her agony once her thirst for vengeance is sated.

That was more gameplay reasons. Lorewise she was still Alliance and had Sylvanas be Alliance from the beginning it's likely that their relationship would become prominent throughout

[Aresk]

Beyond the obvious racial imbalance (carried through to the Blood Elves, as many have pointed out), I don't think it changes too much narratively until Varian's return. At that point, there may have been an Alliance civil war, judging from the attack on the Forsaken in Howling Fjord. Also, Arathi Basin wouldn't have been a battleground. Horde might have gotten Amani as a playable race since they wouldn't have betrayed them with the Blood Elves (in the Amani's view).

This might sound silly, but I really want one of the Forsaken leaders - those nameless that remain - to berate Calia about how just because she's undead, that doesn't mean she's forsaken. Just lambast her on how she abandoned the people of Lordaeron in their time of need and has no right to expect fealty after doing so. It would be especially cool if they could, you know, note how Calia is responsible for the deaths of the Forsaken both during the meeting in Arathi, as well as for the destruction of their first elected body. She single-handedly gave Sylvanas a reason to abolish the Forsaken's first act of independence.

Reform the Desolate Council or riot, tbh.

Pretty sure Sylvanas is the one responsible for killing the Desolate Council, not Calia. Calia was an excuse used to justify the murder of all of them, not just the defectors. Calia was a good excuse, but Sylvanas would have dismantled it regardless based on her internal narrative earlier in the book. I do agree that it would be nice to have citizenry challenge their leaders' positions more and get responses from those leaders, be it Calia, Baine, Gazlowe, Anduin, Turalyon, or Jaina. They could even add little NPC vignettes into the capitol cities and change up the dialogue based on recent events to give more insight into how localized events are affecting the rest of the world.

But the threat of the Scourge was still prominent during Vanilla and TBC which ironically the Forsaken fought against most. It is hypocritical that Forsaken where denied because of their monstrous appearance yet DKs and Worgen were welcomed

DKs are (or were, at least, before the new customization options) largely in a more composed state than the Forsaken and were only accepted after Varian (or Anduin later on) made a formal decree that they should be allowed in the Alliance. Based off the Blizzard claims that demons following warlocks through the streets of Stormwind isn't canon (that "in-setting" warlocks would dismiss those beings, rather that have Stormwind citizens commenting on the hue of blue for passing Voidwalkers), it's reasonable to assume that worgen adopt human guise when not fighting, as constantly shown by every cutscene with Genn in Stormwind.

I mean for me Forsaken are probably one of the most relatible race of people. A group of people that were killed, deformed and forced to serve their oppressors until eventually freed and lost. The Forsaken didn't choose their fate, they're refugees and victims. Void Elves and DHs willingly chose to corrupt themselves for power

Void elves weren't willingly corrupting themselves. They willingly put themselves in a dangerous situation, but the corruption itself was unintended. DHs have no excuse; they willingly follow a leader who gobbled power at every opportunity.

[loras]

I mean for me Forsaken are probably one of the most relatible race of people. A group of people that were killed, deformed and forced to serve their oppressors until eventually freed and lost. The Forsaken didn't choose their fate, they're refugees and victims. Void Elves and DHs willingly chose to corrupt themselves for power

Their morals may be better, but that doesn't change what they are, pitifully.

[Nerovar]

Today I will remind you that even regular arcane magic used to be seen with suspicion, now you can be partly composed of the force of cosmic entropy and destruction and you can chill out in Stormwind just fine.

Damn, it almost hurts to read this.