Do people genuinely think the Horde is evil?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

being same race not being same faction, ppl change
or else that means anything Scourge did is blamed on alliance, since Arthas was human to the end

Not the same race the exact same people who took part in the evil acts of the past.

Literally no one who took part in what arthas did is part of the alliance this isn’t true for the horde.

[mickybrighteyes]

Not the same race the exact same people who took part in the evil acts of the past.

Literally no one who took part in what arthas did is part of the alliance this isn’t true for the horde.

Pretty sure someone could work an argument for Some of those soldiers who purged Strahtolme to have backed off and moved south instead of going to northrend. About as likely as some orcs from the first war not getting killed in 3-6 major wars plus 3~4 civil war collapses

- - - Updated - - -

But I thought all Lordaeronians would submit to Garithos just as how the Silver Hand submitted to disbandment as Arthas relieved them all

The silverhand didn't roll over and accept Arthas' dismissal. They regrouped said he didn't have the authority to make that demand and sent someone to the King. This storyline sort of falls apart because this is also the same time when everythign was falling apart because Arthas goes on to kill the king, the scourge run rampant and other things are also going on in the regions north of the Thandol Span.

Also no faction in the game seems to willingly and immediately allow themselves to become subservient to any rule... and yes, this is despite some very obvious and blatant story arcs where people are pledging themselves to specific leaders. This is supposedly how the Horde works yet it's the only major institution where literally every member seems to be participating in civil uprisings like it's an annual tradition and main advisors threaten the leadership (that they're supposed to be serving) with death via assassination.

[MMOchampmodtard]

Of course these mouthbreathers think the Horde is evil. They did a bad! That means evil!

Honestly, 99% of the fucking idiots on this forum wouldn't know evil if it slapped them in the balls and raped their sister.

Infracted.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Pretty sure someone could work an argument for Some of those soldiers who purged Strahtolme to have backed off and moved south instead of going to northrend. About as likely as some orcs from the first war not getting killed in 3-6 major wars plus 3~4 civil war collapse.

One could make such an argument but with no in lore backing it would just be head canon based on nothing unlike the horde and the orcs.

The only actual similar link you could make Would be the high elfs and what they did with the trolls.

[Sagenod]

Following that logic, does that mean that followers of Sylvanas are Trump supporters?

Now we're getting to the real hard hitting questions.
Followers of Vol'jin = Bush supporters?

[Mehrunes]

As usual you ignore the circumstances in an effort to make the Horde seem innocent. Garrosh was not a good person, helping him in any way is wrong and Aethas was completely aware of that, hence why he needed to be blackmailed in the first place. That it was a WMD they helped him aquire made it all the more wrong.
There is a factual and moral difference between supporting a villain like him and supporting someone that is fighting against such a villain, like Varian. The latter aligns with goals of the Kirin Tor, the first does not.
Besides, apart from herself, what Dalaran resources did Jaina use, hmm? Garrosh declared war on HER and destroyed HER city. Are you trying to say that because she is part fo the Kirin Tor she is not allowed to fight back when she is personally attacked? That is not neutrality, that is apathy and stupidity.

Riiight. Except nothing in what I said was about "making the Horde seem innocent". Spare me your usual trite spiel and try to get some new talking points. Like, actual arguments, for on(c)e. Because it rings particularly hollow when you simply repeat this grand claim of yours right after it was pointed out to you how you flat out twisted Jaina's position on the issue, without doing anything to address it. Because thanks to this turn of events you're the one explicitly ignoring the circumstances, because they were too inconvenient to your fanfiction.

Also, it may shock you and your endless army of straw-men, but I don't recall saying anything about Garrosh being a good person or it being OK to help him. Just the opposite, if you paid any attention. But here's a newsflash: that doesn't make Jaina magically OK. This is false and rather infantile dichotomy. Garrosh being bad is completely beyond the topic and you trying to harp on him is just weak-ass whataboutism.

And please, do give a source on the Kirin Tor being some global artifact police and for that "totally not made up by you" facet of their organization to be above their state neutrality professed by Jaina just a dozen quests earlier. Though just describe it, because I think you will violate some forum rules if you start posting pictures of your behind.

Furthermore, it matters squat what other Dalaran resources Jaina used or whether she used any at all. She was the leader of the Kirin Tor and was in and of herself a Dalaran resource. Consequently, the moment she lifted a finger against the Horde soldiers fighting the Night Elves her continued presence itself constituted a Dalaran's neutrality (not to mention said finger-lifting) that she cared oh, so deeply about, no matter how hard you want to grasp at straws.

Though I must say it's weird that you do grasp at those straws, given how in previous post you were so insistent that none of this had anything to do with Dalaran's neutrality in the first place. Yet here you are, trying to diminish the impact of Jaina's actions on Dalaran's neutrality (and rather ineffectively because it's not like there were many more Dalaran resources used in the Divine Bell theft). And I'm obviously beyond facetious when I call it weird. Changing your tune every post is your bread and butter.

Also, you quite obviously don't know what state neutrality entails. Jaina's past as a leader of a completely different (and actually Alliance) nation was immaterial to her post as the head of the Kirin Tor. She should have been aware of that when taking the job. And, lo and behold, she was. Because, once again, she proudly professed it to Anduin in the very same 5.1 questline. Which you'd know if you didn't have to ignore even the Alliance questline to weave your shoddy fanfiction together.

What was stupid of Jaina here was her thinking thinking she could separate her feelings towards the Horde from the tasks she took upon herself. But that's on her. No one forced her to take the position she wasn't mentally capable of holding. Though of course the rest of the Council offering her the position just because of some idiotic prophecy shortly after they said no to her pitch of killing Orc children also deserve some flak.

The Mana Bomb destroyed one city. The Bell could have corrupted entire continents and was reuable. That Garrosh couldn't make it work is insubstantial, because that wasn't known to anyone at that time and who knows if he would not have found a way sooner or later. The Bell could have potentially destroyed a lot more then the Mana Bomb. I am pretty sure you know this.

Not a single quest, NPC dialogue or in-game object describing the Divine Bell say a word about "corrupting entire continents". Making shit up to validate your previous case of making shit up, while not surprising, doesn't actually succeed in regards to the whole validation part. Even when used by the Mogu who actually knew how to use it all it did was buff their warriors while striking fear in the hearts of their enemies as per the Weathered Journal.

But let's say it had equal or even less power then the Mana Bomb. Does that suddenly make it okay to give it to a madman? Hardly.

You're still harping at your own straw-man here. Because you have no actual argument against the fact that it's not the place of a self-proclaimed neutral state to decide that. Because as evidenced by your own post here, you don't exactly understand state neutrality.

Apart from the fact that they found the Bell and thus it belongs to them and wasn't Jaina's to decide over.

Yes? But, again, the hell does that have to do with anything? Did anyone say it was Jaina's to decide over? No? Then what on earth do you bring this tangent up for?

One does not exclude the other. Again, Garrosh attacked HER. Her position as member of the Kirin Tor does not remove her right to fight against people that directly and openly made her their enemy. She was opposing them as Jaina Proudmoore, not as an Alliance agent. Besides fighting off thieves that want to steal a powerful artifact is barely even against their neutrality. It's simple crime prevention, nothing more.

Yeah, no. Jaina being engaged in the fight against the Horde most certainly exclude your fantasy that she was there to only help with study. And Garrosh attacking HER is still irrelevant and you still don't understand state neutrality. Jaina was a leader of an Alliance nation when Garrosh nuked her ass. She ceased to be one after that because the nation got evaporated. She then accepted the position of a leader of a neutral state, which meant accepting what that entails. Which she professed to have done as per her encounter with Anduin in the Alliance quest that you have to ignore.

Which most certainly removes her right to aid the Alliance against the Horde because that's what state neutrality entails. Which is also something confirmed by Jaina. When Kinndy suggested to Jaina that she should ask the Kirin Tor for help in regards to the Horde attack on Theramore, Jaina told her loud and clear that doing so would be asking Dalaran to break its neutrality. Once again your defense of Jaina is so poorly constructed it gets disproved by Jaina herself.

And sure, she did so as "Jaina herself". Not that anyone argued otherwise, but it's not like there's anything that would stop you from throwing your straw-men around. It's just that "Jaina herself" just so happened to be the leader of a neutral state. Which means she violated that neutrality by aiding one belligerent in a war against the other (again, even by Jaina's own views on the topic). No matter how hard you try to twist the instance Horde assailing an Alliance capital during a war to be "lel crime prevention".

Also, Northwatch (which was under Jaina's jurisdiction) attack on the Barrens predates Garrosh's attack on Theramore (or even Ashenvale). So technically SHE attacked Garrosh. But that's still immaterial to her post as the leader of the Council of Six.

The thing is, I am not making anything up. You just always nitpick the parts of the lore that, in a complete vaccuum, make the Alliance look bad and I am adding the context to deliver a complete picture and in many cases that ends up refuting your arguments.

Uh-huh, totally. If you don't count the idea that the Divine Bell is stronger than the Mana Bomb when even during its use by the Mogu when it actually worked nothing indicated that, the idea that it was capable of corrupting entire continents, the idea that Jaina's issue with Sunreavers had nothing to do with them violating Dalaran's neutrality despite her stating that twice in the same quest, the idea that Jaina was in Darnassus only to help with the study of the Divine Bell and your multiple attempts at handwaving away or at least mitigating Jaina's own violation of Dalaran's neutrality.

And you haven't refuted squat. Jaina doesn't look bad in vacuum alone. She looks just as bad in context. That's why you are "not making anything up", that's why you have to twist yourself into a knot about her violating Dalaran's neutrality, that's why you have to engage in whataboutism about Garrosh, that's why you have to ignore Alliance quests on the topic and that's why you even have to ignore Jaina's own statements that disprove your arguments as well. The thing is, this kind of """"""""""adding the ''''''''''context'''''''''' to deliver a ''''''''''complete'''''''''' picture"""""""""" would make even Sargeras look pristine.

However. I will concede that Jaina's actions in Dalaran were rash. I don't consider her the guilty party, but she could have reacted better. Yet I do not blame her for that. She has tried incredibly hard to keep the peace between the Horde and Alliance for years, she even allowed the Horde to kill her father and then the Horde stabs her in the back at Theramore and again in Dalaran. No normal person would just let this go.

Again, no one put a gun to her head and forced her to take the position of a leader of a neutral nation. She accepted it herself despite the fact that moments before she tried to commit a genocide against the Orcs. She should have been aware of the conflict of interests and that her mental state, her ties to the Alliance and the state of Azerothian affairs would have made it hard for her to abide by it.

And the Horde attacking an Alliance city state during a war started by the Alliance, with the subject of the very same city state breaking the WotLK-Cata truce and its forces then crawling across half a dozen zones in central Kalimdor to fight the Horde doesn't exactly constitute backstabing. Especially given how Garrosh sat on his ass in front of Theramore for a week. I'm not sure how more frontstabbing this could have gotten.

It simply makes her human that she did not make the perfect choice in this situation. And she is still broken up about it and accepts the responsibility for the dead Blood Elves, even if many were killed by the Silver Covenant out of much more base reasons and she had no part in that.

Ah, yes. Who of us hasn't committed ethnic/political cleansing. If you haven't committed at least five by the time of your tenth birthday there must be something wrong with you. Her tyrannical abuse of power and breach of law of the state she willingly became the leader of, knowing full well what it entailed as per her own statements on the topic is also simply human type of things. Why, just this morning I read about how substituting breakfast with tyrannical abuse of power and breach of law of the state you're the leader of makes for a very effective diet that is endorsed by top scientists in the field.

And letting a paramilitary radical militia loose on the people they hate (speaking of which, that most certainly does make Jaina have a part in what they did; also even Vereesa questioned Jaina's methods during the Purge and she's not exactly a stable individual herself) and just so happen to be your citizens is more human that opposite thumbs. Truly, Jaina is a victim of circumstances and her humanity here.

If we're using the ruling class of a brutal dictatorship as the standard of humanity.

[Aresk]

seriously if u try that way the alliance i way more f8cked, because alliance players keep forgetting that Arthas was human, not to mention the cult of the damned - the main foundation of scourge - is purely humans from Lordearon, still living breathing humans
And since i don't see any alliance member returning the stolen lands of Trolls like what the horde did when they moved to Durotan, i don't see how exactly that only successful genocide not counted, since its effect still exist even now

Yes, Arthas was human. Yes, Arthas was part of the Alliance. Up until some point in Northrend, between killing Mal'ganis and returning, where he becomes a death knight and falls under the sway of the Lich King, an orc. That logic can be used to place all of that blame on the Horde. It's horrible logic, because Ner'zhul was as governed by and participating in the Horde at that time as Arthas was governed by and participating in the Alliance, which is to say not at all. They were actively trying to wipe out their original factions (or rather, they were actively trying to bring the Legion into the world, which then had the goal of actively trying to wipe out those factions).

Likewise, the Alliance didn't steal land from the Amani, because that theft took place before the Alliance even existed. Ancestors of members of the Alliance and members of the Horde did participate in that theft, but I'd hardly put the blame on the organizations that weren't even there at the time. Should that land be returned? Debatable (the land originally belonged to the elementals, then the Aqir, then the titan-forged, then the trolls). Will the Horde (who currently controls the land around Zul'aman) and Alliance (who control the lands surrounding Aerie Peak) do it? No. They instead killed the Amani's leader.

[mickybrighteyes]

One could make such an argument but with no in lore backing it would just be head canon based on nothing unlike the horde and the orcs.

Still sounds like another way to scoff off blame...

"oh we can't be blamed because we're not the same group/organization/physical beings" Cause The horde gets to carry every sin of every organization because they're horde around these parts.

The only actual similar link you could make Would be the high elfs and what they did with the trolls.

Well... we have

SI:7 shady dealings still involving overly hostile KoS actions within the past 10 years
7th legion antics under questionable orders
Stormwind military being overly aggressive in some of their campaigns.

I'm not sure about whether ALL the Kul tiran forces that went to Theramore under Daelin were killed anymore given how soo many "wiped out" armies managed to have stragglers for the purposes of creating drama in more modern retellings

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Still sounds like another way to scoff off blame...

"oh we can't be blamed because we're not the same group/organization/physical beings" Cause The horde gets to carry every sin of every organization because they're horde around these parts.

well ya when you are totally uninvolved in something you are kinda blame free, the horde doesn't get to claim such a thing when they still have orcs who were involved in the original horde's evil acts in it.

Well... we have

SI:7 shady dealings still involving overly hostile KoS actions within the past 10 years
7th legion antics under questionable orders
Stormwind military being overly aggressive in some of their campaigns.

I'm not sure about whether ALL the Kul tiran forces that went to Theramore under Daelin were killed anymore given how soo many "wiped out" armies managed to have stragglers for the purposes of creating drama in more modern retellings

ya there are some less then shiny thing's the humans of stormwind have done but nothing on the scale of what the orcs did pre thrall or what the humans and high/blood elf's did to the trolls.

[Harbour]

I dont think the Horde is evil. It is.
No excuses and justifications of genocide especially when there were clear reasons for that and they are purely evil.

[bowlink]

So we are in agreement? Horde are evil

[Raisei]

Riiight. Except nothing in what I said was about "making the Horde seem innocent". Spare me your usual trite spiel and try to get some new talking points. Like, actual arguments, for on(c)e.

Considering every second word you use is "strawman" I give that compliment right back.

Also, it may shock you and your endless army of straw-men, but I don't recall saying anything about Garrosh being a good person or it being OK to help him. Just the opposite, if you paid any attention. But here's a newsflash: that doesn't make Jaina magically OK. This is false and rather infantile dichotomy. Garrosh being bad is completely beyond the topic and you trying to harp on him is just weak-ass whataboutism.

It doesn't matter if you openly admit to it or not. Opposing a villainous dictator is the right thing to do, giving him another WMD, after he used the last one to blow up a town, is not. Jaina is therefore on the the right side. Her actions were rash, and therefore cost more lives then was necessary, something she deeply regrets now, but they were certainly the correct ones.

I know you won't accept even this basic understanding of right and wrong, because it would force you concede that the Horde actually was on the wrong side and I mean how could people that nuke cities, torture the refugees to death and display their corpses as badges of honor ever be wrong?

In any case, I won't adress all of this. Between the numerous repetitions and outright insults that you are so fond of I have limited lifetime and prefer to not talk at walls if I can help it.

And please, do give a source on the Kirin Tor being some global artifact police and for that "totally not made up by you" facet of their organization to be above their state neutrality professed by Jaina just a dozen quests earlier. Though just describe it, because I think you will violate some forum rules if you start posting pictures of your behind.

Your ever present condesention aside, you know very well that the Kirin Tor keeps tracks of dangerous artifacts (like some of our Artifact Weapons) and is in general interested in preventing mass catastrophes, sending agents to investigate and prevent those, like what Jaina was doing in WC3 with Arthas or fighting them directly, like they have been doing in Legion. Preventing Garrosh from stealing the Bell makes absolute sense.

Furthermore, it matters squat what other Dalaran resources Jaina used or whether she used any at all. She was the leader of the Kirin Tor and was in and of herself a Dalaran resource. Consequently, the moment she lifted a finger against the Horde soldiers fighting the Night Elves her continued presence itself constituted a Dalaran's neutrality (not to mention said finger-lifting) that she cared oh, so deeply about, no matter how hard you want to grasp at straws.

Good good. So you are saying that the Horde can attack Jaina as much as they want and commit theft in front of her and she may not act against them. Must really be great for them. They could just attack Dalaran and steal the city, since the mages are neutral and therefore are not allowed to defend themselves when being attacked.

What was stupid of Jaina here was her thinking thinking she could separate her feelings towards the Horde from the tasks she took upon herself. But that's on her. No one forced her to take the position she wasn't mentally capable of holding. Though of course the rest of the Council offering her the position just because of some idiotic prophecy shortly after they said no to her pitch of killing Orc children also deserve some flak.

Wow. It's just amazing how you blame Jaina for having a tiny problem with the Horde after it blew up her city and murdered her friends. How about we blame the people actually responsible only once.
Jaina was and is an exceptional Archmage, well deserving of the position. It is entirely and irrevocably the Hordes fault that she harbors ill will towards them and not a result of her mental weakness or whatever you thought up to smear dirt on this particular Alliance character.

Yes? But, again, the hell does that have to do with anything? Did anyone say it was Jaina's to decide over? No? Then what on earth do you bring this tangent up for?

It's just the little things you love to ignore. The Bell belonged to the Nelfs. If they ask Jaina to protect it against thievery then that has nothing to do with her neutrality at all. She helped out some friends with a problem. It is not her bloody fault that the Horde wanted to steal the artifact to commit more atrocities. Her traps would have worked just as well against neutral enemies like the Sartyr jumping around in Teldrassil.

In short you are blaming Jaina for the choices made by the Horde, because you can't accept that the Horde was in the wrong in this entire questline. Hence why you want to turn it around with this neutrality argumentation.

Again, no one put a gun to her head and forced her to take the position of a leader of a neutral nation. She accepted it herself despite the fact that moments before she tried to commit a genocide against the Orcs. She should have been aware of the conflict of interests and that her mental state, her ties to the Alliance and the state of Azerothian affairs would have made it hard for her to abide by it.

She probably thought to use the Kirin Tor to do some good, save some lives. The opposite of what the Horde has been doing basically.

[Dancaris]

All i can say is "wow". So onesided view is marvelous.

Opposing a villainous dictator is the right thing to do

But it breaks neutrality that you loved so much. If you are helping one side - you are an enemy of other, or its not?
And, by the way, why do you think Jaina was even neutral in modern WoW? From Vanilla to BfA - she was and is Alliance character. Tell me when Horde preCata can walk in Theramore? Or Northwatch? Oh, its not count, right?

Preventing Garrosh from stealing the Bell makes absolute sense.

But not into Kirin Tor bank, yes? Into NE capital, member or the Alliance. So its playing for Alliance side. So - no neutrality again.

mages are neutral and therefore are not allowed to defend themselves when being attacked

Dont put your headcanon into others heads. If you are neutral - you dont act in war. If you help one side - you break neutrality. If you be attacked ny one side - its again break of neutrality from attacking side, and you have all the rights to defend yourself, even join other side.

If they ask Jaina to protect it against thievery then that has nothing to do with her neutrality at all

But she was helping Alliance side. So - its breaking neutrality for her. As leader of Dalaran she had responsibilities. And Night Elf and Jaina should have been thinking about it, when doing this. And for satyrs - lol, in a NE capatal traps for satyrs. Really? Your headcanon cant be that large.

She probably thought to use the Kirin Tor to do some good, save some lives

You know key-word in this? Probably. You think that, not Jaina. We dont know what devs want her to think. I think that she became leader for Rhonins death and Vereesa, and to avenge hem - she agree to lead.

Shame that this questline come to nothing. I wanted to develop Sunreavers to stand agains Kirin Tor. We even save mages to Silvermoon.
But oh well, Horde cant have what they want, its Alliance thing.

[Raisei]

But it breaks neutrality that you loved so much.

What? I never cared. In fact one of my points was that the neutrality of the Kirin Tor does not apply when there is a clearly evil villain around that needs to be stopped.

If you are helping one side - you are an enemy of other, or its not?

Yep, but people helping a murderous dictator simply don't get to complain when the good guys join forces against them.

And, by the way, why do you think Jaina was even neutral in modern WoW? From Vanilla to BfA - she was and is Alliance character. Tell me when Horde preCata can walk in Theramore? Or Northwatch? Oh, its not count, right?

In game mechanics are not a reflection of the world state. Jaina allowed the Horde to kill her bloody father, helped Baine when the Horde ignored his problems, is a friend of Thrall... do I really need to explain like everything that happened until Garrosh nuked her city?

But not into Kirin Tor bank, yes? Into NE capital, member or the Alliance. So its playing for Alliance side. So - no neutrality again.

So you expect Jaina to do what? Demand the Bell is given to the Kirin Tor when it belongs to the Night Elves?

Dont put your headcanon into others heads. If you are neutral - you dont act in war. If you help one side - you break neutrality. If you be attacked ny one side - its again break of neutrality from attacking side, and you have all the rights to defend yourself, even join other side.

Even Switzerland would counterattack if one of their cities is nuked. Where do people get this nonsensical notion that being neutral means you are not fighting back, when attacked?

But she was helping Alliance side. So - its breaking neutrality for her. As leader of Dalaran she had responsibilities. And Night Elf and Jaina should have been thinking about it, when doing this. And for satyrs - lol, in a NE capatal traps for satyrs. Really? Your headcanon cant be that large.

There is like a quest with a Sartyr about 1000 meters from the Entrance to Darnassus. One of the first quests you do when making a Nelf is given to you by him. Seems my headcanon has been implimented into the game!

And again, I love this neutrality talk. You made Jaina your enemy, live with the consequences of that foolish mistake and don't hide behind technicalities. Be glad that she is a better person then 90% of your Horde leaders or you could swim through Orgimmar now.

You know key-word in this? Probably. You think that, not Jaina. We dont know what devs want her to think. I think that she became leader for Rhonins death and Vereesa, and to avenge hem - she agree to lead.

No of course. Jaina, as the bloodthirsty butcher she is, was hatching schemes of slaughtering troll children in their crips. Come friggin on.

She is a good person that wanted to do good in the world. Garrosh made her believe for a time that "doing good" and "eradicating the Horde" are the same thing and well, there would certainly be a lot more Night Elves alive today if she had gone through with that, but in the end she has shown herself to be better then that.

Shame that this questline come to nothing. I wanted to develop Sunreavers to stand agains Kirin Tor. We even save mages to Silvermoon.
But oh well, Horde cant have what they want, its Alliance thing.

Oh the Sunreavers betrayed the Kirin Tor again. Didn't you know? In Legion (mage class story) one of them joins up with the demons. Khadgar has you destroy the evidence for that so they aren't kicked out yet again and Jaina's warnings don't get proven right.

[Maatix]

There is no arguing that there is no evil within the Horde, after the entire Horde stood back and allowed the events of BfA to transpire. EVERY race within the Horde is at least partially responsible for the events of BfA.

"The road to Auschwitz is paved with indifference."

[bowlink]

There is no arguing that there is no evil within the Horde, after the entire Horde stood back and allowed the events of BfA to transpire. EVERY race within the Horde is at least partially responsible for the events of BfA.

"The road to Auschwitz is paved with indifference."

as mutch you have point. comparing really world of events to wow never works.

[Garretdejiko]

Of course the Horde are the bad guys.
When you have the literary talent of an overused mop and a braindead high elved fanbase that can't see other than black and white, there's no other answer.

[Mehrunes]

Considering every second word you use is "strawman" I give that compliment right back.

Cute, but I directly quoted the BS you projected at me and pointed out why it's wrong. So your weak-ass attempt at getting a gotcha by blindly parroting what's said to you is not exactly productive, nor effective. And if it bothers you when your straw-men are pointed out so much, stop constructing them. Because if you expect me to not call you on your fallacious shenanigans you're going to be rather disappointed.

It doesn't matter if you openly admit to it or not. Opposing a villainous dictator is the right thing to do, giving him another WMD, after he used the last one to blow up a town, is not. Jaina is therefore on the the right side. Her actions were rash, and therefore cost more lives then was necessary, something she deeply regrets now, but they were certainly the correct ones.

It being the right thing to do doesn't mean it was the neutral thing to do. If Jaina was so interested in doing the right thing she should have remained in the Alliance and devoted herself to spreading Anduin's message of not pressing a military advantage because it would make your opponents sad.

I know you won't accept even this basic understanding of right and wrong, because it would force you concede that the Horde actually was on the wrong side and I mean how could people that nuke cities, torture the refugees to death and display their corpses as badges of honor ever be wrong?

Since you apparently need things spelled out explicitly despite me already being rather clear twice about this when you were projecting your straw-men about it: given how I condemn Jaina for violating Dalaran's neutrality, I'm in no way condoning what the Horde did at Dalaran either. Mind = blown. The thing is, despite your desperate need to harp on "but what about muh Horde" because arguments hard, Jaina is an adult and her actions don't get to be all nearly brushed under the carpet with "the Horde" embroidered on it. Your constant whataboutisms still achieve nothing more than showcasing how you're utterly and completely devoid of any actual arguments.

In any case, I won't adress all of this. Between the numerous repetitions and outright insults that you are so fond of I have limited lifetime and prefer to not talk at walls if I can help it.

The only things I had to repeat were the things you continued to deliberately ignore. If you don't want me to repeat myself, try not deliberately ignoring things that are inconvenient to your fanfiction. The ball is kinda in your court here.

Your ever present condesention aside, you know very well that the Kirin Tor keeps tracks of dangerous artifacts (like some of our Artifact Weapons) and is in general interested in preventing mass catastrophes, sending agents to investigate and prevent those, like what Jaina was doing in WC3 with Arthas or fighting them directly, like they have been doing in Legion. Preventing Garrosh from stealing the Bell makes absolute sense.

Kirin Tor hoarding artifacts they themselves obtained or that have been granted to them is a far cry from the bizarre idea that they are some Azerothian artifact police that gets to dictate whether other geopolitical entities can pursue artifacts they want to pursue or not. And in WC3 Dalaran was a member of the Alliance and was checking out a disturbance in Alliance territory. Not exactly an apt comparison, though it's not exactly surprising given your utter lack of understanding of state neutrality. The same applies to the Legion, which waged war against everyone, including Dalaran.

Good good. So you are saying that the Horde can attack Jaina as much as they want and commit theft in front of her and she may not act against them. Must really be great for them. They could just attack Dalaran and steal the city, since the mages are neutral and therefore are not allowed to defend themselves when being attacked.

And you say you don't make shit up... JFC. The Horde didn't attack Jaina there. They attacked the Night Elves. So yes, as a head of a neutral state she was not to take sides there. Again, she admitted it herself in Tides of War and you simply burying your head in the sand about it won't magically alter reality.

On the other hand had the Horde attacked Dalaran the Kirin Tor would most certainly have the right to defend their city, because being neutral doesn't mean you can't defend yourself. As in, actually yourself. Because shocking as it may be to you, there's a pretty significant difference between defending yourself from aggression (which state neutrality doesn't prohibit in the slightest) and picking sides in conflicts between other parties (which, on the other hand, is precisely what state neutrality prohibits). It's not exactly a complicated topic. So instead of digging your hole ever deeper, actually read up on the topic and then reply. Just a suggestion. If you like digging holes, do continue what you're doing.

Wow. It's just amazing how you blame Jaina for having a tiny problem with the Horde after it blew up her city and murdered her friends. How about we blame the people actually responsible only once.
Jaina was and is an exceptional Archmage, well deserving of the position. It is entirely and irrevocably the Hordes fault that she harbors ill will towards them and not a result of her mental weakness or whatever you thought up to smear dirt on this particular Alliance character.

What is amazing is your capability to construct straw-men this weak and your choice to quote what you're twisting anyway, making the straw-man utterly self-defeating. Because I didn't blame Jaina for having a problem with the Horde per se. Her history makes it obvious she'd have one. What I am blaming her for is accepting the position of a head of a neutral state despite her history with the Horde, even though it required her to bury the hatchet and not interfere in the war between the Alliance and the Horde any further, even though it was rather obvious it wouldn't have worked out given how just before she accepted said position she tried to commit a genocide against the Orcs. Ditto with her "mental weakness". Who knew that words mean things

Also, given how Jaina's forces from Northwatch broke the WotLK-Cata truce by strolling into the Barrens and given how throughout Cata Theramore not only acted as a staging ground for Alliance reinforcements to Kalimdor but Theramore's own forces spearheaded that campaign and crawled across half a dozen zones, the idea that Jaina harboring ill will towards the Horde is "entirey and irrevocably the Horde's fault" is, to quote @Dancaris, so one-sided it's marvelous.

It's just the little things you love to ignore. The Bell belonged to the Nelfs. If they ask Jaina to protect it against thievery then that has nothing to do with her neutrality at all. She helped out some friends with a problem. It is not her bloody fault that the Horde wanted to steal the artifact to commit more atrocities. Her traps would have worked just as well against neutral enemies like the Sartyr jumping around in Teldrassil.

You being utterly ignorant of what state neutrality is and how it works doesn't mean I'm ignoring any "little things". I'm not even ignoring said ignorance of yours, as I'm addressing it (again) head on. I also wouldn't call the scale of your ignorance of the topic "little".

Because whether you like it or not, Jaina BY HER OWN GODDAMN ADMISSION personally acted against Horde soldiers in an Alliance-Horde fight, during an Alliance-Horde war. Despite being the head of a neutral state. That is a violation of state neutrality and her being friends with one side of that war is immaterial. She should have buried that personal link or not taken the position. You being clueless on the topic of state neutrality alters nothing here. And that the Bell belonged to the Night Elves is still nothing more than pointless noise than an actually relevant tangent.

In short you are blaming Jaina for the choices made by the Horde, because you can't accept that the Horde was in the wrong in this entire questline. Hence why you want to turn it around with this neutrality argumentation.

Nope. I'm blaming Jaina for the choices made by Jaina. The Horde didn't force her to violate Dalaran's neutrality. She did so herself. So, once again, spare me your whataboutism.

She probably thought to use the Kirin Tor to do some good, save some lives. The opposite of what the Horde has been doing basically.

This is nothing more than an appeal to emotions. Especially since there were many lives she could have saved by not taking sides in an ongoing conflict between the Alliance and the Horde.

Even Switzerland would counterattack if one of their cities is nuked. Where do people get this nonsensical notion that being neutral means you are not fighting back, when attacked?

Name those Dalaran cities nuked by the Horde. Do have fun with that given how it's a city state. Unless you're trying to dishonestly conflate Jaina's tenure as a leader of an Alliance nation, when her city-state has been nuked with her tenure as a leader of a neutral one, when no Dalaran cities were nuked. In which case, just cease.

[mickybrighteyes]

ya there are some less then shiny thing's the humans of stormwind have done but nothing on the scale of what the orcs did pre thrall or what the humans and high/blood elf's did to the trolls.

well only when you can sit back with various new filters pas the buck on


also bonus points for putting "nearly wiping out a faction" as "nothing on the scale of". sounds like you're not familiar with the fact that Kul Tiran ships were basicalyl going to wipe out the dark spear and that the bilgewater were getting hunted in the wilds. But yeah lets keep that spark going for the Path of Glory

[Lorgar Aurelian]

well only when you can sit back with various new filters pas the buck on


also bonus points for putting "nearly wiping out a faction" as "nothing on the scale of". sounds like you're not familiar with the fact that Kul Tiran ships were basicalyl going to wipe out the dark spear and that the bilgewater were getting hunted in the wilds. But yeah lets keep that spark going for the Path of Glory

I mean Mabye you didn't notice but the Kul'tirans not only aren't stormwind humans but they also left the alliance because they didn't back them up at all the the Kul'tiran part of the alliance(pre bfa) which is thereamore turned on them because of what they wanted to do to the orcs/trolls/horde in general.

I get that you really want to say the alliance humans are as bad as the orcs but there just isn't any thing to actually back that up. when the orcs were doing things like the path of glory they went along with it and those same orcs then join thralls horde and stay in it though all of wow. when the Kul tiran humans do something kinda close not only did the rest of the humans not go along with it they turned on the Kul tirans and let them get slaughtered, these two things really couldn't be any more day and night.