Can they ever, realistically, allow other races to be Demon Hunters...?

[Aresk]

I see what you're saying here but, they don't have any active nature racial abilities. a Demon Hunter using Fel and healing or harming others with the light doesn't really coincide. and i know what you're going to say - neither does a Draenei Death Knight. but, one, they didn't choose to be raised into undeath. and two, apparently, Death does not sever ties to the light:

"Sir Zeliek was one of the Four Horsemen of Naxxramas. He was a paladin in life, so strong in his faith, that even in undeath the power of the Light still heeded his call, smiting his foes in battle."

"The undead, against their nature, also have access to priests, and at least one undead paladin exists. The act of channeling the Light is painful for the undead, but not impossible."

Second thing is, Night elves going Demon Hunter, like Illidan, for example, are probably former sorcerers than nature worshippers, like Malfurion. you can say a Draenei Demon Hunter comes from the Wakeners, for example, an order of magi on Argus. but, i feel it fits the Eredar more than it does the Draenei. there are the Artificers, but they are more about Engineers, than sorcery and magical power, like Illidan or the Wakeners.

Third thing is, Fel exposure severs ties to the light, as in the case of the Broken Draenei. due to their exposure to fel energies (or the red mist - a fel infused disease), they devolved and were unable to call upon the light (the light didn't answer their call):

"Broken draenei are often rejected from draenei society due to their deformities, and inability to use the Light, leading them to eke out miserable existences in Outland's wastes."

"Broken draenei are unable to draw upon the Light's powers, being infused with fel energies."

"Like his fellow Broken, Nobundo had lost contact with the Light".

"Nobundo was formerly a draenei vindicator but lost the ability to call upon the Light during the fall of Shattrath City and was deformed by the fel energies released."

"when Nobundo tried to call on his powers of the Holy Light, he found that he could no longer use them".

so, a Draenei using fel energies and still calling upon the light kind of breaks the lore. Meanwhile, a Broken Draenei, abandoned by the light, could freely use the fel.

the reason i'm suggesting Broken Draenei (from Argus, not Outland) is because they have lived on a fel-saturated world for millenia, and had to survive among demons.

While the broken can't draw upon the light, that doesn't stop others from doing it. For instance, blood elves gained green eyes from exposure to fel, but they still call upon the light in both priests and paladins. Demons are created by light and void and use fel (for the reverse). Xe'ra was more than happy to give the gift of the naaru to a demon hunter. And if all else fails, Blizzard can reskin the racial similar to how they handled Tyrant Velhari as an anti-paladin eredar. Particularly given such candidates as Socrethar (twice over) and the Sargerei, it makes sense that some of the draenei would be willing to go down a path and become demons.

[Ielenia]

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Arcane#The...f_arcane_magic

I don't know if we can actually take the arcane as actually addicting. It could be just a way to emphasize that misuse and/or abuse of arcane is seen as a bad thing. I mean, the only other time in the lore in that arcane magic is displayed as 'addicting' is the high elf plight when the Sunwell was destroyed, but that could have been argued that, after having a lifetime of having arcane magic flowing constantly through their bodies from the Sunwell, their bodies adapted to treat the magic as a necessary part of their biology.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Void#Effects_on_beings

Right. And what do you mean by "astrologer"? How does that even relate to the void, which is what threw me for a loop on the 'corrupted' thing.

Stop treating the Demon Hunter like it's some sacred and divine class, not to be touched or expanded upon by foul, inferior races. It's just a class, man. It's not like i'm suggesting for it to be opened to every race possible.

I'm not. I'm just pointing out the reasons one might have and how valid they might be to become a demon hunter. Nowadays, right now, there is no reason why one would want to become one, nor any reasons for the Illidari to recruit more, especially considering the sacrifices required from the trainee.

- - - Updated - - -

IThat didn't stop blood elves from pursuing both paths. While warlocks arguably may be safer, there seems sufficient motivation to pursue the path of the demon hunter instead, particularly when looking for a more martial focus.

There was a goal: defeat the Burning Legion, and some blood elves were chosen to become demon hunters to help fight the Legion, by order of Kael'Thas. That goal is basically gone, now. And remember how lethal the training is: of the first five blood elves sent to be trained, three died. Of the two that survived, but one went completely mad (Leotheras the Blind) and only one remained sane (Varedis Felsoul).

Xhul'horac was explosive, though it is said in the dungeon journal that he consumed "overwhelming Fel energy." We saw demon hunters explode from the same thing absent any void presence. Xhul'horac was also a member of "a race of parasitic void-beings that tear holes through the planes of reality, consuming and absorbing the energies and beings within" so it makes sense that opening portals to both fel and void simultaneously would create instability; we saw what happened to Draenor and Nathreza when portals to many other places were torn open in close proximity, and as far as I know, Ner'zhul's portals weren't going directly to the void and fel realms.

Actually, I meant more how if one is affected by fel and walks into a void "fire" during the fight, it triggers an explosion. And vice-versa. Not Xhul'horac himself.

Meanwhile, we can point to other entities that have had a connection to both. Cho'gall, for instance, was a warlock who become so infused with void energy from the Old Gods that he physically mutated. Void elf warlocks were already brought up. Demons themselves were created from a mix of light and void are the prime manipulators of fel.

I don't think Cho'gall is an actual warlock in the 'player class' kind. Especially with his WoWpedia article citing so many classes on him, including necromancer, necrolyte and sorcerer.

Aside from Demon Hunters, aren't orcs the only ones who have ritually removed their eyes for enhanced sight? The Bleeding Hollow ritually remove eyes to see the moments of their death. While peering through time to a fixed moment is definitely different thran spectral sight, it seems culturally that this ritual is in line with the Bleeding Hollow clan, and particularly given how readily AU Kilrogg was to embrace fel sources of power, those orcs would be prime candidates for demon hunters, IMO.

It's a single eye for a single vision. As for AU Kilrogg 'readily accepting the fel', I could argue that he did so because that's how he saw himself in this death: mutated by fel. So he knew he should drink it.

[username993720]

While the broken can't draw upon the light, that doesn't stop others from doing it. For instance, blood elves gained green eyes from exposure to fel, but they still call upon the light in both priests and paladins. Demons are created by light and void and use fel (for the reverse). Xe'ra was more than happy to give the gift of the naaru to a demon hunter. And if all else fails, Blizzard can reskin the racial similar to how they handled Tyrant Velhari as an anti-paladin eredar. Particularly given such candidates as Socrethar (twice over) and the Sargerei, it makes sense that some of the draenei would be willing to go down a path and become demons.

Yes, but they have not been mutated by it and do not use light-based racial abilities.

Demons are badly affected by the power of the light, as in the case of Exorcism, Holy Wrath and Turn Evil.

By cleansing him of his demonic features. much like how Lothraxion is classified as a humanoid, instead of a demon, due to being lightforged.

The day they do that, i'll agree with you. currently, they haven't done such a thing.

I don't know if we can actually take the arcane as actually addicting. It could be just a way to emphasize that misuse and/or abuse of arcane is seen as a bad thing. I mean, the only other time in the lore in that arcane magic is displayed as 'addicting' is the high elf plight when the Sunwell was destroyed, but that could have been argued that, after having a lifetime of having arcane magic flowing constantly through their bodies from the Sunwell, their bodies adapted to treat the magic as a necessary part of their biology.


Right. And what do you mean by "astrologer"? How does that even relate to the void, which is what threw me for a loop on the 'corrupted' thing.


I'm not. I'm just pointing out the reasons one might have and how valid they might be to become a demon hunter. Nowadays, right now, there is no reason why one would want to become one, nor any reasons for the Illidari to recruit more, especially considering the sacrifices required from the trainee.

and the Highborne, Nightborne and Naga. it's not about what you believe in or not, it's a fact. arcane magic is addicting.

What i meant is that the Shadowmoon Orcs were mostly astrologers and seers before they started to use the Void. granted, they were forced to start using it, however, they could have abandoned it with the fall of the Iron Horde - but they didn't. you kept saying how dangerous the path of the Demon Hunter is, due to the danger of the demon within taking over, and yet the path of the Void is not less dangerous, as you can fail to resist its whispers and fall into madness. just like how wielding arcane magic is. you could get addicted to it, and possibly devolve into a senseless being, or you can get corrupted, like Kel'thuzad or Kael'thas. sometimes, in life, we take the least safe path, because the outcome is, often, so enticing and so rewarding, that we disregard the warnings. I can definitely see Orcs taking that route (given their history and nature).

Again, it doesn't have to be right now. when the time is right. you didn't keep mentioning how the time was off, across all of these pages, but how it doesn't fit anyone, because it's so special.

[AngerFork]

And should they?

I must admit that I think a female Orc DH would LOOK badass, I was never a fan of Elves, but hearing someone say that it WILL happen "because there's support in the lore" without getting a source nor clarification brought me here.

Or is it just a case of them pulling what they did with DK's and it's just a matter of time...? If so, what races would make sense?

Absolutely they can. Story-wise, it isn't even that hard given that Illidan is fighting with Sargeras. If Sargeras escapes, we will need to do whatever we can to stop him. For Illidan, that will mean making new Demon Hunters. If Illidan is killed beforehand, it's likely some of his former Illidari will want to make new Demon Hunters to fight for vengeance.

So...I did mention with limitations, and the reason for that is in part because some races just wouldn't do it and in part because some races likely couldn't do it.

Alliance-wise, all races likely could do it except for maybe LF Draenei, Void Elves, and Worgen. The Light would likely hold them too strong for the Fel to take hold as it would need to. DKs are possible for LF Draenei as they have already died before the DK process, DHs are still alive. Void Elves are a bit weird as the Void would be fighting with the Fel for control and it is likely the Void would win. Worgen are a bit of a maybe, we don't know how their curse interacts with the way Fel would try to take over their bodies. Beyond that, it is hard for me to see Draenei or Pandaren willingly undergoing the rituals to become a DH, so I wouldn't expect any of them to take part in this.

Horde-wise, the only race that may have an immunity to the DH Fel process would be Undead. They really aren't alive in the same sense that other beings of Azeroth are "alive", so it's unclear how the Fel would be able to work with what remains of their flesh/organs. I do feel that culturally, it is unlikely that DHs would ever be Tauren, HM Tauren, Pandaren, Vulpera, or Mag'har Orcs due to the cultures from each of these races.

Otherwise, there's a few races that are unlikely to be able to be DHs if they ever become playable. Ethereals don't really have a body for the Fel to shape. Naga might be able to, but that depends on how changeable they are after N'Zoth changed them already.

[Ielenia]

and the Highborne, Nightborne and Naga. it's not about what you believe in or not, it's a fact. arcane magic is addicting.

No, no and no. Nowhere for the nightborne it says that magic is "addicting". For them, it is literally their bodies adapting and evolving to use arcane magic as a source of nourishment: "When the city faced starvation, this source of power (i.e. the Nightwell) would become more than a font for magical spells and works, it would become the principal source of nourishment in place of the exhausted food supplies." It was not addiction. It was actual nourishment. It literally replaced food for sustenance for the nightborne.

What i meant is that the Shadowmoon Orcs were mostly astrologers and seers before they started to use the Void. granted, they were forced to start using it, however, they could have abandoned it with the fall of the Iron Horde - but they didn't.

How do you know this? I checked the history of the AU Shadowmoon clan, and nothing is said about them "continuing to practice void magic". They started using the void, but then stopped using it long ago (since it's said that one of the "ancient laws" of the clan is to not call upon the "dark star powers") and then started using the void again after the Iron Horde forced them. I have no reason to believe that they didn't stop using the void again after the Iron Horde was over.

you kept saying how dangerous the path of the Demon Hunter is, due to the danger of the demon within taking over, and yet the path of the Void is not less dangerous, as you can fail to resist its whispers and fall into madness. just like how wielding arcane magic is. you could get addicted to it, and possibly devolve into a senseless being, or you can get corrupted, like Kel'thuzad or Kael'thas. sometimes, in life, we take the least safe path, because the outcome is, often, so enticing and so rewarding, that we disregard the warnings. I can definitely see Orcs taking that route (given their history and nature).

Of the first five blood elves that were sent for training, three died, and one went mad. Only one succeeded. That should tell you a little about the problems of becoming a demon hunter.

[Sett]

NB and Velves would be easiest to do. Slap lore on later-the animations are already there. Would need some touch-ups for DH-only stuff but extremely doable compared to other races.

[heartless8604]

They've already basically done this with quite a few races. I remember the amount of initial negative feedback when Tauren were allowed Druids. That was a retcon in itself. So sure, it's been done before can be done again.

I see it, wait some time and all classes with be playable by all races. Gnome druids when?

[username993720]

No, no and no. Nowhere for the nightborne it says that magic is "addicting". For them, it is literally their bodies adapting and evolving to use arcane magic as a source of nourishment: "When the city faced starvation, this source of power (i.e. the Nightwell) would become more than a font for magical spells and works, it would become the principal source of nourishment in place of the exhausted food supplies." It was not addiction. It was actual nourishment. It literally replaced food for sustenance for the nightborne.


How do you know this? I checked the history of the AU Shadowmoon clan, and nothing is said about them "continuing to practice void magic". They started using the void, but then stopped using it long ago (since it's said that one of the "ancient laws" of the clan is to not call upon the "dark star powers") and then started using the void again after the Iron Horde forced them. I have no reason to believe that they didn't stop using the void again after the Iron Horde was over.


Of the first five blood elves that were sent for training, three died, and one went mad. Only one succeeded. That should tell you a little about the problems of becoming a demon hunter.

"Magical addiction is an affliction suffered by the Highborne, and to a greater extent by their descendants."

"known as the high elves, then as the blood elves — developed an innate, seemingly incurable addiction to its arcane energies."

"Notably, the rangers were affected by the withdrawal less so than their brethren" (not magic users).

"While in Lordaeron, Kael'thas met Lady Vashj and her serpentine naga. Vashj claimed that the naga, too, were addicted to magic and that her master Illidan Stormrage could help the blood elves in their struggle with magical addiction."

"The naga too are addicted to magic. As former Highborne, the naga's past abuse of the Well has not been without additional consequences. The Highborne were obsessed with the Well, and the naga have been exposed to the Well's residual magics for millennia. Consequently, modern naga are addicted to magic."

"It also cursed them with a far more debilitating addiction to arcane magic, as the addiction became combined with hunger. Failing to sate this addiction led to a nightborne quickly becoming emaciated, a state known as 'nightfallen''.

"If the addiction remained unsated, a nightborne would eventually be transformed into a feral, enraged creature known as a withered."

You do not suffer withdrawal symptoms if you're not addicted. if it was simply nourishment, then it could have been replaced by food. for example, a panda, who has been accustomed to eating bamboo and bamboo only, doesn't suffer withdrawal symptoms when deprived of its food source. it doesn't start scratching its body like crazy, and it does not become neurotic. hungry? yes. addiction symptoms? no.

The withered and the wretched are clearly based on real-life drug addicts, not starving people from africa:

"The Wretched are elves (usually blood elves) that failed to control their innate addiction to magic, overindulging in arcane sources to the point of deformity and, often, insanity." - overindulgence in nourishment does not make you insane. fat, maybe. but, not insane and skinny.

"The nightfallen are outcast nightborne elves that have been cut off from the nourishment of the Nightwell due to being exiled from Suramar City and have begun to wither into a state of withdrawal."

"Fate would deal a cruel blow as the energies of the Nightwell were addictive, and elves unable to retrieve Arcwine nourishment would begin to starve and regress."

"Without this magical sustenance they began regressing into a weakened state known as nightfallen, as is expected of anyone starving. However, instead of dying of starvation after the standard period of time passed, the nightfallen would then enter a fully mindless state, and become creatures completely driven by instinct and their individual self lost — a fate called withered"

"When hungering, nightfallen stand with a hunched posture, clutching at themselves at they uncontrollably tremble from withdrawal. They also have a habit of scratching their jawline."

But, apparently, all of this doesn't matter, as:
"Curiously, non-elf races seem immune to magical addiction. The high elves were notably surprised to discover humans had this resistance, and it appears gnomes, dwarves, goblins, and the races alien to Azeroth also possess it. Even the elves' own progenitors, the trolls, seem to possess this resistance to magical addiction." so, the mage path is no longer relevant.

Mag'har Darkcasters are Mag'har orcs who first appeared in Gorgrond. After the Mag'har were teleported from Draenor to Azeroth, they emerged in Durotar. Subsequently, they are present in the Hall of the Brave, the Valley of Honor, and the Orgrimmar Embassy in Orgrimmar. Two are holding a portal to Warspear in Pathfinder's Den.

They use the following abilities:

Void Crash — Fires a missile towards a random target. When this missile lands, it deals Shadow damage to all enemies within 5 yards of that location.

Void Shield — The caster channels void energies around an ally to protect them from harm reducing damage taken by 90%. Each time an enemy strikes the shielded target a blast of energy is released inflicting Shadow damage to the enemy.

"Darkcaster Mystics are Mag'har orcs located in Stormsong Valley during Faction Assaults."

Void Blast — Hurls a bolt of dark magic at an enemy, inflicting Shadow damage.

Void Crash — Fires a missile towards a random target. When this missile lands, it deals Shadow damage to all enemies within 5 yards of that location.


They are using the Void to maintain the portal.

Surrender to Madness
Level 100 Shadow priest talent
10 min cooldown
Instant cast
All your Insanity-generating abilities generate 100% more Insanity, and you can cast while moving, until you exit Voidform.
Then you die. Horribly.

Same thing with wielding the Void. you might die in the process, or you might lose your sanity.

[Syegfryed]

Not really. It's a ritual, and it could be argued that this would test the trainee's dedication to the demon hunter cause, for example.

it make no sense to be a ritual for the cause, it is a "profession" especially designed to kill demons and other magic things better than other classes, is their whole thing, fi they were not they would be completely pointless in wow

It doesn't "speak for itself". Did they had any other means of detection at hand at the time? No? Then it's obvious they'd use the demon hunter. "I need a screwdriver". "I only got a knife". "That'll do".

how they didn't? detect magic is something of course dalaran already had, and your example, the DH would be the screwdriver, not the knife, they are build especifically for that and wil do a better job than a warrior with magical googles.

The fact that you are saying magic googles alreadyover the entire DH class is bananas

Except we were discussing Spectral Sight, specifically, as an example. The demon hunter doesn't really offer anything "oh-so-useful" that makes them a 'must have' in an army, regardless if they're fighting against demons or void lords or the local bear attack.

e are not discussing "specifically" we are discussing the class as a whole and their tool to fight demons or other magical creatures like "void demons", and they are far better build for that than other classes with magic googles.

So, fighting for the Warchief of the Horde, and therefore fighting for the Horde, is "not that big of a deal" for an orc?

You are going to spin this until it fit your pov? which, rly doesn't matter here? cause im not interest in that at all.

[Ielenia]

it make no sense to be a ritual for the cause, it is a "profession" especially designed to kill demons and other magic things better than other classes, is their whole thing, fi they were not they would be completely pointless in wow

Um... being a "profession", as you put it in quotes, does not exclude it from it having a ritual like that. And, no, demon hunters are not "designed to kill demons and other magic things" better than other classes. Is that because they dual-wield double-bladed weapons? Four blades are better than one or even two blades? The demon hunter's arsenal also doesn't do "increased damage" or is extra efficient against demons, either, like holy magic is said to be specifically hurtful to the undead.

Also remember that the we have proof that the five first blood elves sent to Illidan for training, and of those five, three died, and one went insane. Having a ritual like that "for the cause" seems pretty much in line.

how they didn't? detect magic is something of course dalaran already had, and your example, the DH would be the screwdriver, not the knife, they are build especifically for that and wil do a better job than a warrior with magical googles.

The fact that you are saying magic googles alreadyover the entire DH class is bananas

No, demon hunters are not built "specifically to kill demons", despite the name of the class. And yes, it's Dalaran, but that does not mean that every mage in Dalaran has access to all spells at all times.

e are not discussing "specifically" we are discussing the class as a whole and their tool to fight demons or other magical creatures like "void demons", and they are far better build for that than other classes with magic googles.

And as I've explained, the demon hunters are not any more "better suited" to fight demons than the other races. Hell, I'd argue that priests and paladins are better equipped to deal with demons than demon hunters considering that holy magic is actually effective against demons, considering that, at some point in the past, the paladin's spell Exorcism once had guaranteed critical strike against undead and demons.

You are going to spin this until it fit your pov? which, rly doesn't matter here? cause im not interest in that at all.

It's not a spin. It's a fact. Warriors of the Horde are fighting for their warchief, who just happened to be Sylvanas at the time. And fighting for their warchief means fighting for the Horde. Do you dispute that?

- - - Updated - - -

"Magical addiction is an affliction suffered by the Highborne, and to a greater extent by their descendants."

"known as the high elves, then as the blood elves — developed an innate, seemingly incurable addiction to its arcane energies."

"Notably, the rangers were affected by the withdrawal less so than their brethren" (not magic users).

"While in Lordaeron, Kael'thas met Lady Vashj and her serpentine naga. Vashj claimed that the naga, too, were addicted to magic and that her master Illidan Stormrage could help the blood elves in their struggle with magical addiction."

"The naga too are addicted to magic. As former Highborne, the naga's past abuse of the Well has not been without additional consequences. The Highborne were obsessed with the Well, and the naga have been exposed to the Well's residual magics for millennia. Consequently, modern naga are addicted to magic."

"It also cursed them with a far more debilitating addiction to arcane magic, as the addiction became combined with hunger. Failing to sate this addiction led to a nightborne quickly becoming emaciated, a state known as 'nightfallen''.

"If the addiction remained unsated, a nightborne would eventually be transformed into a feral, enraged creature known as a withered."

You do not suffer withdrawal symptoms if you're not addicted. if it was simply nourishment, then it could have been replaced by food. for example, a panda, who has been accustomed to eating bamboo and bamboo only, doesn't suffer withdrawal symptoms when deprived of its food source. it doesn't start scratching its body like crazy, and it does not become neurotic. hungry? yes. addiction symptoms? no.

The withered and the wretched are clearly based on real-life drug addicts, not starving people from africa:

"The Wretched are elves (usually blood elves) that failed to control their innate addiction to magic, overindulging in arcane sources to the point of deformity and, often, insanity." - overindulgence in nourishment does not make you insane. fat, maybe. but, not insane and skinny.

"The nightfallen are outcast nightborne elves that have been cut off from the nourishment of the Nightwell due to being exiled from Suramar City and have begun to wither into a state of withdrawal."

"Fate would deal a cruel blow as the energies of the Nightwell were addictive, and elves unable to retrieve Arcwine nourishment would begin to starve and regress."

"Without this magical sustenance they began regressing into a weakened state known as nightfallen, as is expected of anyone starving. However, instead of dying of starvation after the standard period of time passed, the nightfallen would then enter a fully mindless state, and become creatures completely driven by instinct and their individual self lost — a fate called withered"

"When hungering, nightfallen stand with a hunched posture, clutching at themselves at they uncontrollably tremble from withdrawal. They also have a habit of scratching their jawline."

Would it hurt to offer sources for all that? I really don't feel like making individual searches for each and every one of your twelve unsourced quotes.

Mag'har Darkcasters are Mag'har orcs who first appeared in Gorgrond. After the Mag'har were teleported from Draenor to Azeroth, they emerged in Durotar. Subsequently, they are present in the Hall of the Brave, the Valley of Honor, and the Orgrimmar Embassy in Orgrimmar. Two are holding a portal to Warspear in Pathfinder's Den.

They use the following abilities:

Void Crash — Fires a missile towards a random target. When this missile lands, it deals Shadow damage to all enemies within 5 yards of that location.

Void Shield — The caster channels void energies around an ally to protect them from harm reducing damage taken by 90%. Each time an enemy strikes the shielded target a blast of energy is released inflicting Shadow damage to the enemy.

"Darkcaster Mystics are Mag'har orcs located in Stormsong Valley during Faction Assaults."

Void Blast — Hurls a bolt of dark magic at an enemy, inflicting Shadow damage.

Void Crash — Fires a missile towards a random target. When this missile lands, it deals Shadow damage to all enemies within 5 yards of that location.

They are using the Void to maintain the portal.

Then, I don't know. The Shadowmoon Clan outlawed the use of void, or "dark star" powers, prior to the Iron Horde, and remained as such for a long, long time (since it's referred to as an "ancient law"). I do not know why they have decided to continue to break ancient law. They could have been corrupted by it, or they could have found a way to safely harness it. Like I said, I don't know.

Surrender to Madness
Level 100 Shadow priest talent
10 min cooldown
Instant cast
All your Insanity-generating abilities generate 100% more Insanity, and you can cast while moving, until you exit Voidform.
Then you die. Horribly.

Same thing with wielding the Void. you might die in the process, or you might lose your sanity.

I could argue that "surrender to madness" is an 'extreme measure', to relinquish all safety measures to further empower themselves. A "last hurrah" of sorts, I suppose.

[username993720]

Would it hurt to offer sources for all that? I really don't feel like making individual searches for each and every one of your twelve unsourced quotes.


Then, I don't know. The Shadowmoon Clan outlawed the use of void, or "dark star" powers, prior to the Iron Horde, and remained as such for a long, long time (since it's referred to as an "ancient law"). I do not know why they have decided to continue to break ancient law. They could have been corrupted by it, or they could have found a way to safely harness it. Like I said, I don't know.


I could argue that "surrender to madness" is an 'extreme measure', to relinquish all safety measures to further empower themselves. A "last hurrah" of sorts, I suppose.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Magical_addiction

From the Hearthstone card:

Surrender to Madness is an example of a "top-down" card design, intended to capture the fantasy of giving up everything for power as seen in World of Warcraft's Surrender to Madness talent as well as the theme of sacrifice and dark bargains seen in the Battle for Azeroth storyline involving King Rastakhan, Princess Talanji, and Bwonsamdi.

Remember when Rastakhan sacrificed his bloodline to be empowered by Bwonsamdi, and save his city? it's very similar to Illidan and his sacrifices, to be empowered and fight demons.

or Arthas taking up Frosmourne to save his kingdom, despite Muradin's warnings.

Muradin: "Hold, lad. There's an inscription on the dais. It's a warning. It says, 'Whomsoever takes up this blade shall wield power eternal. Just as the blade rends flesh, so must power scar the spirit.' Oh, I should've known. The blade is cursed! Let's get the hell out of here!".

Arthas: "I would gladly bear any curse to save my homeland. Now, I call out to the spirits of this place. I will give anything or pay any price, if only you will help me save my people."

the Demon Hunter is not unique in that department.

[Ielenia]

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Magical_addiction

From the Hearthstone card:

Surrender to Madness is an example of a "top-down" card design, intended to capture the fantasy of giving up everything for power as seen in World of Warcraft's Surrender to Madness talent as well as the theme of sacrifice and dark bargains seen in the Battle for Azeroth storyline involving King Rastakhan, Princess Talanji, and Bwonsamdi.

Remember when Rastakhan sacrificed his bloodline to be empowered by Bwonsamdi, and save his city? it's very similar to Illidan and his sacrifices, to be empowered and fight demons.

or Arthas taking up Frosmourne to save his kingdom, despite Muradin's warnings.

Muradin: "Hold, lad. There's an inscription on the dais. It's a warning. It says, 'Whomsoever takes up this blade shall wield power eternal. Just as the blade rends flesh, so must power scar the spirit.' Oh, I should've known. The blade is cursed! Let's get the hell out of here!".

Arthas: "I would gladly bear any curse to save my homeland. Now, I call out to the spirits of this place. I will give anything or pay any price, if only you will help me save my people."

the Demon Hunter is not unique in that department.

All your examples are of "extreme measures", of "last resort" moments. Rastakhan making that deal because there was nothing else he could do. Arthas taking Frostmourne out of bloodthirsty revenge after all his other attempts failed. Etc, etc. They're the "end point" of their paths.

For the demon hunter, however, those sacrifices aren't the "extreme measures" of "last resort" moments. It's the entry point of the demon hunter path.

[username993720]

All your examples are of "extreme measures", of "last resort" moments. Rastakhan making that deal because there was nothing else he could do. Arthas taking Frostmourne out of bloodthirsty revenge after all his other attempts failed. Etc, etc. They're the "end point" of their paths.

For the demon hunter, however, those sacrifices aren't the "extreme measures" of "last resort" moments. It's the entry point of the demon hunter path.

Then, why would a Night elf or a Blood elf go through it, in contrast to other races?

[Ielenia]

Then, why would a Night elf or a Blood elf go through it, in contrast to other races?

One big difference: the existence of the Burning Legion. Their existence and what they did to the night elves and blood elves drove them to become demon hunters.

But the Burning Legion does not exist anymore. At least, not in any capacity to be anywhere near the universal threat they used to be. Their seat of power has been destroyed, the world soul they used for faster "respawns" is dead, their leader has been imprisoned, and the Titans are free.

There is no reason to train more demon hunters, even from elves.

[Syegfryed]

And, no, demon hunters are not "designed to kill demons and other magic things" better than other classes.

they are specifically called demon hunter, their very name is to reflect their profession, they only like to hunt demon like creatures

Also remember that the we have proof that the five first blood elves sent to Illidan for training, and of those five, three died, and one went insane. Having a ritual like that "for the cause" seems pretty much in line.

don't seem like it just for the cause, is a ritual to enhance beings to be better at kill demons, is his very elite force, it make no sense to sacrifice so many people if they have no return, or better return than the others classes. If DH were not more efficient, and would be the same as ny other class, illidan could have just got way more warriors and had way more manpower in his cause, again, make no sense

No, demon hunters are not built "specifically to kill demons", despite the name of the class.

try to spin that to me, why they aren't build for that, despite their own name, their objectives and their backstories.

And as I've explained, the demon hunters are not any more "better suited" to fight demons than the other races

you didn't explained, you just gave your opinion, that again, make no sense.

It's not a spin. It's a fact. Warriors of the Horde are fighting for their warchief, who just happened to be Sylvanas at the time. And fighting for their warchief means fighting for the Horde. Do you dispute that?

Again, you are just spinning things, we already went far off from the main point with that.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Of course they can. They probably won't though. At least not for a while I would say. But with how expansion ideas have gotten stranger and stranger you never know.. we might be due for the "return of the legion part 77 -- THEY ARE BACK! (again)" expansion and a "feature" they can list on the back of the box might be "NOW ALL RACES CAN BE DEMON HUNTER TO FIGHT THE LEGION!!!!!!!"

[Ielenia]

they are specifically called demon hunter, their very name is to reflect their profession, they only like to hunt demon like creatures

"Like to hunt" is right. Nothing about the demon hunter, aside from the name, shows they're more apt at killing demons than the other heroes.

don't seem like it just for the cause, is a ritual to enhance beings to be better at kill demons, is his very elite force,

Except they're not an "elite force". The only "elite force" is the demon hunters you participate in the demon hunter starting zone.

it make no sense to sacrifice so many people if they have no return, or better return than the others classes.

It doesn't, true. But when you've lost everything and can only think of revenge against a force everyone else is not giving anywhere as much thought as you are, those rituals end up making sense for the desperate.

If DH were not more efficient, and would be the same as ny other class, illidan could have just got way more warriors and had way more manpower in his cause, again, make no sense

Does Illidan know how to train warriors? Or priests? or rogues? Or hunters? Also, remember the Illidari are not just demon hunters. They have warriors and mages as well, in the form of the broken, naga and other demons.

try to spin that to me, why they aren't build for that, despite their own name, their objectives and their backstories.

They have nothing about them that makes them "specific" to hunt demons. Their abilities have not been demonstrated to be more effective against demons than a fireball to the face or an axe through their skulls.

Again, you are just spinning things, we already went far off from the main point with that.

So is that your new favorite buzzword, then? "Spin"? Did you get tired of repeating "red herring" and "double standard" so much they lost their meaning?

[username993720]

One big difference: the existence of the Burning Legion. Their existence and what they did to the night elves and blood elves drove them to become demon hunters.

But the Burning Legion does not exist anymore. At least, not in any capacity to be anywhere near the universal threat they used to be. Their seat of power has been destroyed, the world soul they used for faster "respawns" is dead, their leader has been imprisoned, and the Titans are free.

There is no reason to train more demon hunters, even from elves.

You just played yourself. because the Nightborne also suffered from the Burning Legion. their story is, essentially, the Highborne story during War of the Ancients. their queen, Magistrix Elisande formed a pact with the Burning Legion, just like Azshara (their vain and appearance resemble each other). her population allied with the burning Legion as well, except for a rebellious group.

The Blood elves didn't, particularly, suffer at the hands of the Burning Legion. their population suffered the most from Arthas and the Scourge. yes, their prince, Kael'thas, allied himself with the Burning Legion, but it was not on the same scale as the War of the Ancients and the Nightborne storyline during Legion (Silvermoon was not infested with demons, like Suramar and Zin-Azshari). and, if i'm not mistaken, their training as Demon Hunters occured before Kael'thas defected to the Burning Legion - when he was still loyal to Illidan Stormrage (in that case, there is no reason at all).

The Orcs suffered from the Burning Legion, as well. they enslaved their entire race, and contributed to the destruction of their homeworld.

The Krokul of Argus are not so different. their homeworld was, completely, ravaged by the Legion. the Legion's fel energies made them devolve, and lose contact with the light. and they had to, literally, survive for a millenia surrounded, entirely, by demons.

I already agreed with you that now was not the moment. but, in the future - and i can guarantee it - Sargeras will be released from his prison (how and when, i don't know). because everything, and i mean everything, that that is imprisoned in WoW is bound to be released at some point (see: The Jailer, Illidan, Garrosh, etc...). Whether he'd be on our side or against us is to be seen.

The Titans being free is not such a good argument, as he single-handedly destroyed them with the power of the fel before (because of Arcane's vulnerability to Fel).

[Ielenia]

You just played yourself.

Please read what I wrote before you start mocking me:

But the Burning Legion does not exist anymore. At least, not in any capacity to be anywhere near the universal threat they used to be. Their seat of power has been destroyed, the world soul they used for faster "respawns" is dead, their leader has been imprisoned, and the Titans are free.

There is no reason to train more demon hunters, even from elves.

It doesn't matter that the nightborne also suffered under the demons. They weren't there when Illidan went to Outland, or when Kael'Thas when to Outland. The nightborne only came recently out of their bubble.

I already agreed with you that now was not the moment. but, in the future - and i can guarantee it - Sargeras will be released from his prison (how and when, i don't know).

Then you cannot guarantee it.

because everything, and i mean everything, that that is imprisoned in WoW is bound to be released at some point (see: The Jailer, Illidan, Garrosh, etc...). Wether he'd be on our side or against us is to be seen.

Is there any force stronger than the Titans themselves that would be interested in releasing the fallen Titan? Not the Void Lords, considering Sargeras' goal in life was to fight the Void Lords and deny them access to our reality.

[username993720]

Please read what I wrote before you start mocking me:

It doesn't matter that the nightborne also suffered under the demons. They weren't there when Illidan went to Outland, or when Kael'Thas when to Outland. The nightborne only came recently out of their bubble.


Then you cannot guarantee it.


Is there any force stronger than the Titans themselves that would be interested in releasing the fallen Titan? Not the Void Lords, considering Sargeras' goal in life was to fight the Void Lords and deny them access to our reality.

So, it is a timeline issue and not a theme issue, like you've been arguing with me for the past 20 or so pages. that can, easily, be fixed. with the creation of a new generation of Demon Hunters, trained by the Illidari.

Of course i can. if you want to get rid of something in lore, simply kill it. and even then, now with the Shadowlands, it is not guaranteed either. you do not bind something if you do not intend to use it later in the story (learn a thing or two about storytelling).

Of course there is. anything that wants to create chaos, will use Sargeras' crusade to their advantage. Didn't the Jailer send his Dreadlords to infiltrate the force of Chaos, and made them consume fel energy? they served Sargeras all these years. so, yes, the creation of the Burning Legion worked to Death's advantage:

"In many ways, the titans will be the easiest to manipulate. Their singular goal is to impose structure upon everything they see.

Show them a force that opposes their drive for Order, and they will be consumed by their urge to eradicate it.

Their pantheon, so seemingly united in purpose, is vulnerable to fracturing."

"And as previously discussed, our position within the plane of Disorder is proceeding flawlessly. Consuming fel energy is not a pleasant process, but a necessary one.

The deception you have architected will bear fruit in the ages to come."

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Enemy_Infiltration_-_Preface

And, don't forget that the massive amount of casualties, during the Legion invasion, served to empower the Jailer and the Maw with Anima (as it is believed that the machine of death broke during Legion).

The forces of Void also benefit from creating chaos:

"The Old Ones wanted to divert the power of Sargeras' portal to themselves and crack Azeroth open and after eons of imprisonment, they would be free."

"10,000 years later the Old Gods invaded Nozdormu's realm and managed to open a rift in time, that, as they had planned, tossed some beings back through time, beings that would change the way the War of the Ancients took place, and give Sargeras a new chance to enter the world, and therefore give them a new chance to set themselves free."

"In the aftermath of the Third War, the Old Gods noticed Illidan and his hunger for power intrigued them. Illidan cast a powerful spell to summon the naga and they answered. A group led by Lady Vashj pledged themselves to him. They did not come because of their shared history, nor did they respect his demonic power. They came because the Old Gods willed it. They were aware that his quest to destroy the Lich King could spark a new war on Azeroth, one that would envelop the undead, demons and world's nations. With this chaos, Cho'gall and his cultists could awaken the Old Gods relatively unopposed. They saw Illidan as useful in this regard, and they were confident that he could bring a new age of conflict."

"While Xavius worked to aid the Legion, he and the Nightmare were still firmly under the control of the Old Gods. They seemingly aided the Legion as they delighted in the chaos the demons caused and hoped to keep their mutual enemies' attention focused on the Legion, allowing the Old Gods to work their manipulations in the background."

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Old_God

It doesn't have to be a villainous entity that releases him, either. it could be us. he could be a valuable asset against the Void, and he might be used to help us defeat them.