Rogue's SnD can become a passive

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I mean, SND is literally just "keeping a dot up".

Ya and the more you add on the more complex it gets even if just a little.

[ryjkur]

Uhhh, Bloodlust gives haste - faster gcds, faster energy regen, faster cooldowns, changes how you play. This shit just does nothing. They should replace this with Super Evis that does way more damage and has 45 seconds - a finisher you press as much as SnD, but is actually cool and fun.

Using combo points for Evis to deal instant 3k damage isn't fun at all. Using combo points for 50% faster attack speed that leads to 3k more damage is more fun and has more depth because SnD affects many trinkets, potions, poisons and other abilities that benefits from faster attack speed.

[shoegazing]

people yell "you pruned all the abilities, you made the game braindead"

they add stuff back "thats not the stuff we want back. pressing the button is braindead"

/shrug. i wouldnt listen to players either if i were blizz.

I wanted Gouge back the most. I also think SnD coming back is a positive even if I don't care about it as much as Gouge. More finisher diversity is definitely nice. Watching old videos, it's definitely amazing to see the strategic use of different finishers, often in situations where you wouldn't intuitively expect it. Simply bringing back SnD doesn't restore all that depth on its own, but it is a step in that direction. Too many people only see the immediate short term, they aren't looking further ahead towards the bigger picture.

Too many people also only view the game / their class, through the narrow lense of "these are the buttons I press when doing damage races in PvE". That's a trashcan mentality for trashcan players and the game is worse today than it was several years ago because of them.

[Craaazyyy]

snd adds complexity cuz you have to think about it every once in a while.. does it add a lot? no, but it adds a little, which is nice considering how boring and easy assa is

having more abilities, even abilities that don't do that much, is better than not having them

[Schmilblick]

Using combo points for Evis to deal instant 3k damage isn't fun at all. Using combo points for 50% faster attack speed that leads to 3k more damage is more fun and has more depth because SnD affects many trinkets, potions, poisons and other abilities that benefits from faster attack speed.

Stop pulling numbers from nowhere please.

[shoegazing]

Stop pulling numbers from nowhere please.

You're entirely missing the point they are making. "3k" is obviously just a placeholder, it doesn't matter to the argument at all. The point is whether there is more depth to have some damage delayed over a period of time or for it to happen immediately. Personally I think it's great that we have both finisher options. I think it's incredibly, remarkably boring that the PvE crowd wants all damage to be immediate and up front with no ramp up time.

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rupture and s&d are the fucking same thing

This is your brain on extreme PvE-biased tunnel vision.

Rupture breaks enemies out of Stealth, SnD doesn't. Rupture is a bleed and bypasses armor, SnD damage is affected by armor and therefore has different value vs. different targets. Rupture continues dealing damage when you are running away to restealth, or when you are sitting in roots or polymorph or other CC (or when the boss flies up in the air, there's one for you PvE folks). SnD requires continuous uptime on the target to get maximum value.

So many of the arguments you guys keep advancing are just so bad. Do you even play the game or do you just look at spreadsheets all day?

[Ealyssa]

Who wouldn't want to attack 50% faster? People are yelling about Bloodlust like a madman if you forget to press it.

Imagine understanding the difference between haste and attack speed in world of warcraft...

You almost had a point, sadly you don't know the game.

[Volatilis]

Do you even play the game or do you just look at spreadsheets all day?

Instead of being all edgelord to Pve'ers.

Why dont you actually play a game where PVP is taken seriously and is designed that way. Not just a feature within an MMO

WoW pvp is so minor now they struggle to get more views than some random scrub playing among us, than pikaboo at a tournament.

[shoegazing]

Instead of being all edgelord to Pve'ers.

Why dont you actually play a game where PVP is taken seriously and is designed that way. Not just a feature within an MMO

I enjoy all that WoW has to offer. Looking forward to my raid tonight.

Blizzard has given far too much power to the raidlogger crowd that doesn't participate in any other content. The effects have been disastrous, particularly for class design. We don't even have classes to play anymore, just a damage rotation. Of course, if you ask a "PvE-only" player many of them will tell you that the class and the damage rotation are the same thing.... they don't understand the difference. Too far lost in the spreadsheets.

[Volatilis]

I enjoy all that WoW has to offer. Looking forward to my raid tonight.

Blizzard has given far too much power to the raidlogger crowd that doesn't participate in any other content. The effects have been disastrous, particularly for class design. We don't even have classes to play anymore, just a damage rotation. Of course, if you ask a "PvE-only" player many of them will tell you that the class and the damage rotation are the same thing.... they don't understand the difference.

Arena is a joke, one shotting and class imbalance all over the place.

Rated BG's a cheaters paradise that doesnt even get oversight from blizzard protecting people from disconnect attacks.

Its pretty clear WoW pvp is an after thought.

[Kaver]

You're entirely missing the point they are making. "3k" is obviously just a placeholder, it doesn't matter to the argument at all. The point is whether there is more depth to have some damage delayed over a period of time or for it to happen immediately. Personally I think it's great that we have both finisher options. I think it's incredibly, remarkably boring that the PvE crowd wants all damage to be immediate and up front with no ramp up time.

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This is your brain on extreme PvE-biased tunnel vision.

Rupture breaks enemies out of Stealth, SnD doesn't. Rupture is a bleed and bypasses armor, SnD damage is affected by armor and therefore has different value vs. different targets. Rupture continues dealing damage when you are running away to restealth, or when you are sitting in roots or polymorph or other CC (or when the boss flies up in the air, there's one for you PvE folks). SnD requires continuous uptime on the target to get maximum value.

So many of the arguments you guys keep advancing are just so bad. Do you even play the game or do you just look at spreadsheets all day?

You've already agreed that SnD doesn't make sense based on the current Rogue design in PvE. So I'm not sure why you keep saying that it does. It's extremely easy to keep 100 % uptime and it doesn't really result in any ramp up time since we generate 1 million combo points per minute.

PvE content is fun because of mechanics. High M+ dungeons and Mythic raiding are fun because the content is challenging and that has very little to do with the dps rotations of classes.

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I enjoy all that WoW has to offer. Looking forward to my raid tonight.

Classic raid right? It's a completely different game. Raid mechanics are much less impactful in Classic compared to Mythic raiding in retail.

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We don't even have classes to play anymore, just a damage rotation.

Well that's not true. The reason why Outlaw Rogue is so strong in High-end M+ is because of the utility it brings. I'm not sure why you're lying. Honestly, when was even the last time you played retail wow? You are just trying to annoy people in here and it just seems extremely sad.

[shoegazing]

Arena is a joke, one shotting and class imbalance all over the place.

Rated BG's a cheaters paradise that doesnt even get oversight from blizzard protecting people from disconnect attacks.

Its pretty clear WoW pvp is an after thought.

Mythic+ is a joke, class stacking is out of control.

/yawn

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You've already agreed that SnD doesn't make sense based on the current Rogue design in PvE. So I'm not sure why you keep saying that it does. It's extremely easy to keep 100 % uptime and it doesn't really result in any ramp up time since we generate 1 million combo points per minute.

Where exactly did I say that?

I think SnD coming back is a positive for the game overall, and a positive trend for class design, even if it doesn't have an immediate positive impact for the small niche of players participating in mythic raids.

Even running around in the world completing quests is also "PvE" and SnD does make gameplay different in that area and gives the player something else to think about and manage. A player who judges the duration of a mob encounter and spends an appropriate amount of combo points on SnD will be rewarded with greater damage and efficiency vs. the player who always casts it at 5cp and wastes a lot of its duration in downtime between pulls.

[ntlntl]

I believe they put a CP spender to compete with the other spender. Rogue will now have to decide whether we would refresh SnD now, or wait for more CP, or not at all as the target soon dies. It seems to come from the old way how rogue plays.

In wow classic, SnD feels big, it contributes so much to damage and gameplay. To keep the buff up 100% of the time, I really had to think ahead about what buttons to press, how much CP to build and spend, and when to. The resource management is real; as energy and CP are scarce. Looking at the timer and the energy tick addon to determine the moment to refresh SnD is rewarding, particularly during the heat of a fight. When we switch targets, we lose all CP; so to play effectively, we have to learn when to refresh SnD between mobs, just before it dies.

The thing is, this is retail. Rogues in SL has more energy, and we generate so much CP now. It means the task to keep SnD up is trivial, making it a pure maintenance button to press every xx seconds. CP also transfers between targets, so there is no point in an early refresh.

There is much work to do if they want SnD back as a meaningful CB spender.

A player who judges the duration of a mob encounter and spends an appropriate amount of combo points on SnD will be rewarded with greater damage and efficiency vs. the player who always casts it at 5cp and wastes a lot of its duration in downtime between pulls.

Well said, it's an extra layer of complexity that requires class and encounter awareness.

[Kaver]

Mythic+ is a joke, class stacking is out of control.

/yawn

Seriously what are you trying to achieve. You don’t even play retail wow but you stil spend hours upon hours in here writing about it. And most of your input is outdated because you have no idea how the classes interact with mechanics nowadays. Why are you trying so hard to ruin other peoples enjoyment of a game you don’t even play? It almost seems like an obsession.

[shoegazing]

The thing is, this is retail. Rogues in SL has more energy, and we generate so much CP now. It means the task to keep SnD up is trivial, making it a pure maintenance button to press every xx seconds. CP also transfers between targets, so there is no point in an early refresh. There is much work to do if they want SnD back as a meaningful CB spender.

If it's "trivial" to keep it up, it shouldn't inconvenience you at all.

Yet here we are with multiple threads of extreme whining from narrow minded people who ONLY participate in dungeons and raids.

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Seriously what are you trying to achieve. You don’t even play retail wow but you stil spend hours upon hours in here writing about it. And most of your input is outdated because you have no idea how the classes interact with mechanics nowadays. Why are you trying so hard to ruin other peoples enjoyment of a game you don’t even play? It almost seems like an obsession.

If SnD is "trivial" to keep up due to amount of CPs and energy you have access to you, how is that "ruining your enjoyment of the game" ?

SnD it seems is Schrödinger's maintenance buff: simultaneously trivial to maintain with no impact, and also a great travesty that has set the Rogue class back years in its development and ruined the enjoyment of the game for all of these PvE-only players.

As for what I am trying to achieve: I would like to play retail again. I will do that when the Rogue becomes something I can stand to look at, instead of this trashcan class which was created to satisfy every inane whim of PvE-only players who are obsessed with their almighty rotation.

[Kaver]

I believe they put a CP spender to compete with the other spender. Rogue will now have to decide whether we would refresh SnD now, or wait for more CP, or not at all as the target soon dies. It seems to come from the old way how rogue plays.

In wow classic, SnD feels big, it contributes so much to damage and gameplay. To keep the buff up 100% of the time, I really had to think ahead about what buttons to press, how much CP to build and spend, and when to. The resource management is real; as energy and CP are scarce. Looking at the timer and the energy tick addon to determine the moment to refresh SnD is rewarding, particularly during the heat of a fight. When we switch targets, we lose all CP; so to play effectively, we have to learn when to refresh SnD between mobs, just before it dies.

The thing is, this is retail. Rogues in SL has more energy, and we generate so much CP now. It means the task to keep SnD up is trivial, making it a pure maintenance button to press every xx seconds. CP also transfers between targets, so there is no point in an early refresh.

There is much work to do if they want SnD back as a meaningful CB spender.



Well said, it's an extra layer of complexity that requires class and encounter awareness.

Exactly. But then we have old school people like Shoegazing who don’t even play the game anymore but still feel the need to lecture us on how classes work based on information from vanilla. SnD was relevant back in the days, but it’s not anymore because the class design is totally different and the content is totally different.

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If it's "trivial" to keep it up, it shouldn't inconvenience you at all.

Yet here we are with multiple threads of extreme whining from narrow minded people who ONLY participate in dungeons and raids.

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If SnD is "trivial" to keep up due to amount of CPs and energy you have access to you, how is that "ruining your enjoyment of the game" ?

SnD it seems is Schrödinger's maintenance buff: simultaneously trivial to maintain with no impact, and also a great travesty that has set the Rogue class back years in its development and ruined the enjoyment of the game for all of these PvE-only players.

As for what I am trying to achieve: I would like to play retail again. I will do that when the Rogue becomes something I can stand to look at, instead of this trashcan class which was created to satisfy every inane whim of PvE-only players.

You’re just so hateful. It’s so extreme. You very well know what we mean when we say it’s not impactful. Trivial abilities should of course not be in the game. It’s just annoying.

Why are you spending so much time arguing about a game you’re not even playing?

[shoegazing]

Exactly. But then we have old school people like Shoegazing who don’t even play the game anymore but still feel the need to lecture us on how classes work based on information from vanilla. SnD was relevant back in the days, but it’s not anymore because the class design is totally different and the content is totally different.

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You’re just so hateful. It’s so extreme. You very well know what we mean when we say it’s not impactful. Trivial abilities should of course not be in the game. It’s just annoying.

Why are you spending so much time arguing about a game you’re not even playing?

You consistently tell me that PvP sucks, that I am wrong to care about a game that I love, that I should leave. Ymirrsson states openly that he is "extremely biased against PvP players". I call out the selfishness of people who ONLY care about a narrow slice of PvE, and according to you this makes me hateful.

If SnD is so "trivial" then you should all stop throwing tantrums about it. But you won't. Guess it's not so trivial after all, huh?

[Gherothar]

Yes. Fuck maintenance buffs.

Agreed, there's nothing interesting or fun about them.

[MatPandaZ]

People here acting like DPS rotations are hard for other classes :'). The point is to keep you juggling some plates while also dealing with boss/m+/whatever tactics. Stop reading into it all so much.

[shoegazing]

Agreed, there's nothing interesting or fun about them.

There's nothing interest or fun about dealing all of your damage instantly up front with no ramp and nothing to manage.

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People here acting like DPS rotations are hard for other classes :'). The point is to keep you juggling some plates while also dealing with boss/m+/whatever tactics. Stop reading into it all so much.

"This plate is one plate too many! Even though this plate is TRIVIAL. But it is also an OUTRAGE!"

:^)