If they made a new class in the future, what would it be?

[Teriz]

And in the past would you dismiss Demon Hunters as a class by saying "It's kind of hard to argue a class based on demonic magic is not a warlock class" but that wouldn't be correct because not only are demon hunters different from warlocks in the gameplay department (mobility focused melee fighter vs ranged imobile spellcaster) they have distinct thematic identities (vengeance driven, fel infused warriors who transform into demons vs masters of demonic/dark magic who summon and command demons).

Demon Hunters were established as hunters of demons who could turn into demons, not spell casters who keep demons as pets. This got a bit muddled because Warlocks got the ability to transform into demons and it reduced the design space for the Demon Hunter class to exist. However once that was changed you could bring a DH class into WoW.

In the case of Necromancers and Death Knights, that difference in theme doesn't really exist. The only difference people can come up is a range difference, and since nothing states that Necromancers need to be ranged, that difference point is irrelevant.

Necromancers and Death Knights are different archetypes no matter how you try to spin it, they are distinct in gameplay (ranged spellcaster vs melee fighter) they are distinct in theme, Death Knights are fallen heroes, raised into unwilling servitute, who were freed and wield the dark powers they were granted meanwhile Necromancers like Kel'thuzad willingly studied necromancer for the sake of power, ambition or knowledge, they are distinct archetypes the Death Knight is not a Necromancer class it is a Dark Knight/Anti-paladin class, they are distinct archetypes no matter how much you conflate them, Kel'Thuzad isn't called a Death Knight hes always been called a Necromancer.

Again, nothing specifically states that a Necromancer needs to be a ranged spell caster. Also Death Knights also are spell-casters.

If Demon Hunters can exist as a fighter equivalent of Warlocks despite using the same type of magic (fel) because of metamorphosis, melee fighting, mobility why can't Necromancers exist as a spellcaster equivalent to the Death Knight class, theres no rule that Necromancy in WoW can only be represented Frost, Unholy and Blood especially now that Shadowlands has greatly expanded on Necromancy and if a Necromancer class had access to different forms of Necromancy (like poison or anima-based spells) why can't they exist on the same paradigm as Demon Hunters and Warlocks or Paladins and Priests who share forms of magic.

Because the main purpose of a Necromancer is to summon undead minions, something Death knights already do. A Necromancer is a character that uses necromancy, that's it and that's all.

No fan necromancer concept i've seen just retreads Frost, Unholy and Blood without changing them, theres are plenty of things DK's don't do or aren't massive parts of the DK specs identity, Insects, Poison, Corpses, Anima, Contructs, Bone. Even things like Blood Healing are different expressions of the same theme (Blood Magic) and if Blood tank spec prevents Blood healer spec from existing why do things like Holy, Protection and Retribution Paladin exist when Holy Priest exists? if "Blood Tanking" is enough ways "Blood magic" can be expressed why do we have 4 specs that use holy magic in different ways shouldn't Holy priest be enough ways to express "holy magic" following this logic? why can't 2 specs share Blood magic but 4 specs can share holy magic?

Again, the Priest class exists in WoW as a way to have a spell caster that uses both holy and shadow magic. It serves a rather distinct purpose in the class lineup, and is frankly the only class that can do it. Creating an inverted Death Knight that has a healing spec that uses blood, is ranged instead of melee, is cloth instead of plate, and other silly things to create a distinction for the sake of distinction is rather pointless.

Also given that Kelthuzad is the only major Necromancer character remaining in WoW, there's no way you're creating a necromancer class without a Lich specialization. Unfortunately in order to do that, you'll have to gut Frost DK and Frost Mage.

[Ielenia]

Necromancers and Death Knights are different archetypes no matter how you try to spin it, they are distinct in gameplay (ranged spellcaster vs melee fighter) they are distinct in theme, Death Knights are fallen heroes, raised into unwilling servitute, who were freed and wield the dark powers they were granted meanwhile Necromancers like Kel'thuzad willingly studied necromancer for the sake of power, ambition or knowledge, they are distinct archetypes the Death Knight is not a Necromancer class it is a Dark Knight/Anti-paladin class, they are distinct archetypes no matter how much you conflate them, Kel'Thuzad isn't called a Death Knight hes always been called a Necromancer.

The problem is that Teriz boils the death knights and necromancer concepts down to a single characteristic, necromancy, while purposely ignoring everything else surrounding that characteristic that makes the two concepts different from one-another.

But when we show that his argument is bogus when we apply it to present classes, suddenly all the other characteristics matter.

and if not why can't 2 specs share Blood magic but 4 specs can share holy magic?

Not to mention we have two specs that share fire magic (mage/warlock), two specs that share frost magic (mage/death knight) and two specs that share water healing (monk/shaman).

[Teriz]

Whatever gets stripped would be iconic to the Necromancer class, not to the Warlock or Death Knight.

Death Coil being removed from the Warlock was a good move, this was always a Death Knight's most iconic ability. So is removing Metamorphosis, which they should never have had.

What Necromancer iconic abilities need to be removed from DKs or Warlocks? This is a baseless argument.

Death and Decay, Raise Dead, Unholy Frenzy, Chains of Ice, Control Undead, Corpse Explosion, Bone Shield, Lifedrinker, Drain Life, Drain Soul, Deathbolt, Soul Leech, Curses, Health Stone, Soul Well, Frost Nova, Frost Armor, etc.

Just to name a few....

[Triceron]

Death and Decay, Raise Dead, Unholy Frenzy, Chains of Ice, Control Undead, Corpse Explosion, Bone Shield, Lifedrinker, Drain Life, Drain Soul, Deathbolt, Soul Leech, Curses, Health Stone, Soul Well, Frost Nova, Frost Armor, etc.

Just to name a few....

Raise dead is the only ability significant to the Necromancer. The rest aren't iconic abilities the Warcraft Necromancer ever had. When did they have Drain Life or Healthstones or Bone Shield? They never did

[Traveler Voltin]

didnt unholy freezing get put on the DK skillset?

i have no idea where cripple went.

[Teriz]

Raise dead is the only ability significant to the Necromancer. The rest aren't iconic abilities the Warcraft Necromancer ever had. When did they have Drain Life or Healthstones or Bone Shield? They never did

Unfortunately a Necromancer class wouldn’t only have the 3 abilities they had in WC3.

Those are core Necromancer abilities found in many RPGs. Bone Shield for example is simply another name for Bone Armor, a common Necromancer ability in Diablo. Life Drain is a common Necromancer ability in D&D and other games.

- - - Updated - - -

didnt unholy freezing get put on the DK skillset?

i have no idea where cripple went.

Yep, and Cripple is a warlock pet ability. At least it used to be.

[Ielenia]

Unfortunately a Necromancer class wouldn’t only have the 3 abilities they had in WC3.

Of course. The overwhelming majority of abilities, both active and passive, would be completely original. Like all the classes in the game.

Those are core Necromancer abilities found in many RPGs.

"Other RPGs" are not WoW.

Bone Shield for example is simply another name for Bone Armor, a common Necromancer ability in Diablo.

Diablo is not WoW. And what Blizzard does for Diablo shouldn't matter for what Blizzard does to WoW, considering you negatively criticize any and all fan class concepts that take even the littlest bit of inspiration from Diablo.

Life Drain is a common Necromancer ability in D&D and other games.

D&D and "other games" is not WoW. In D&D, too, warriors have be ranged and use all their abilities while wielding a bow or crossbow. You can't do that in WoW. In D&D, rangers can cast healing magic on their allies. Hunters can't do that.

[Imperator4321]

Demon Hunters were established as hunters of demons who could turn into demons, not spell casters who keep demons as pets. This got a bit muddled because Warlocks got the ability to transform into demons and it reduced the design space for the Demon Hunter class to exist. However once that was changed you could bring a DH class into WoW.

In the case of Necromancers and Death Knights, that difference in theme doesn't really exist. The only difference people can come up is a range difference, and since nothing states that Necromancers need to be ranged, that difference point is irrelevant.

Difference is theme doesn't exist to you because you willfully choose to ignore it and boil down a class concept you don't like into just "necromancy" to conflate it with another class you also boil down into just "necromancy", Death Knights/Anti-Paladins/Dark Knights and Necromancers are different archetypes, they have existed as different archetypes since the modern fantasy genre began they have as much overlap as Paladins and Priests/Clerics and can be made as different as required by whatever fantasy setting their in (and wow necromancy is more than just Blood, Unholy, Frost and summon ghouls).

Again, nothing specifically states that a Necromancer needs to be a ranged spell caster. Also Death Knights also are spell-casters.

Look on any image search website and see what images you get when searching "Necromancer" or "Necromancer class" most images you get back won't be a heavily armored undead warrior wielding a two handed weapon, it would be a cloth wearing, staff or dagger wielding character casting a spell because the Death Knight class was not designed as a "Necromancer class" it was designed as a "Dark Knight/Anti-paladin Class" because that is literally the archetype it was based on from WC3 onward (Arthas story is that of a paladin who falls from grace, all WC3 death knights are fallen Paladins, they were even initially called Anti-paladins.)

Heres one of the first images i get searching "Necromancer" on google images


Heres what i get searching "anti-paladin"



Which one is more evocative of the "Death Knight" fantasy? which one is more evocative of the "Necromancer" fantasy?

I'm not talking about lore when i say Death Knights aren't spellcasters , Death Knights use spells in lore but they aren't "spellcasters" in a gameplay sense, Spellcasters rely on spells with cast time to deal damage (spellpower stat), instead of melee or ranged attacks (attack power stat).

Death Knights are not "spellcasters" in a gameplay definition because they do not rely on spells to deal damage, most of their damage is from melee strikes or other melee abilities. Unholy Death Knights are not standing at the back of the fight casting death coils, Frost DK's are not casting frost blasts, they are by design supposed to be in melee swinging their weapon only casting "spells" when nessessary (i.e to spend runic power, maintain a dot/debuff or on proc).

Because the main purpose of a Necromancer is to summon undead minions, something Death knights already do. A Necromancer is a character that uses necromancy, that's it and that's all.

If the purpose of the Death Knight class is to summon undead minions why to 2/3rds of the Death Knight classes specs only have a single summon on a 2 minute cooldown that lasts for a minute with no aspects of their spec that interact with that summon, only Unholy is designed with undead minions as a main element which are skeletons and ghouls and if 4 specs can share holy magic as a theme why can't Unholy Death Knights share a "undead minions" theme with a potential Necromancer spec especially given we have multiple other forms of undead such as ghosts, constructs, banshee/spectres, crypt fiends/nerubians that Death Knights do not deal with.

Again, the Priest class exists in WoW as a way to have a spell caster that uses both holy and shadow magic. It serves a rather distinct purpose in the class lineup, and is frankly the only class that can do it. Creating an inverted Death Knight that has a healing spec that uses blood, is ranged instead of melee, is cloth instead of plate, and other silly things to create a distinction for the sake of distinction is rather pointless.

So now the greater distinctions between similar classes matter but you can boil Necromancers and Death Knights down to just "necromancy", I also wasn't talking about why Holy Priest exists I was talking about why Holy Paladin's, Protection Paladins, Retribution Paladin exist when we already have a spec that uses "holy magic" since according to your logic Holy Paladin's, Protection Paladin's and Retribution Paladins are unnessary since we have a spec that uses Holy Magic (holy priest).

Once again no Necromancer concept i've seen is pushing for an inverted death knight who uses Unholy, Frost and Blood magic just at range, they all try to incorperate some different form of death/necromantic magic or barring that give a different gameplay role to something we already have (like using blood magic to heal instead of tank).

Also given that Kelthuzad is the only major Necromancer character remaining in WoW, there's no way you're creating a necromancer class without a Lich specialization. Unfortunately in order to do that, you'll have to gut Frost DK and Frost Mage.

Lore can be invented or altered, we're in an expansion that's introduced us to non-evil Necromancy users in the form of the Maldraxxi and other forms of Death-based magic in Ardenweald, Bastion and Revendreth, along with the introduction of Anima), we've seen other forms of death magic in the form of the Drust/Heartsbane coven, or Bwonsamdi's death magic or the blood magic of the Blood Trolls in Nazmir.

A Necromancer class doesn't need to be bound by how the Scourge or kel'thuzad were depicted.

[Teriz]

Difference is theme doesn't exist to you because you willfully choose to ignore it and boil down a class concept you don't like into just "necromancy" to conflate it with another class you also boil down into just "necromancy", Death Knights/Anti-Paladins/Dark Knights and Necromancers are different archetypes, they have existed as different archetypes since the modern fantasy genre began they have as much overlap as Paladins and Priests/Clerics and can be made as different as required by whatever fantasy setting their in (and wow necromancy is more than just Blood, Unholy, Frost and summon ghouls).

I’m not ignoring anything. I’m simply saying that Demon Hunters were always rather distinct from Warlocks, Necromancers simply aren’t distinct from Death Knights. Heck, since they perform Necromancy, they’re Necromancers by default. The only real definition of a Necromancer is someone who practices Necromancy, and that’s what the Death Knight does.

Look on any image search website and see what images you get when searching "Necromancer" or "Necromancer class" most images you get back won't be a heavily armored undead warrior wielding a two handed weapon, it would be a cloth wearing, staff or dagger wielding character casting a spell because the Death Knight class was not designed as a "Necromancer class" it was designed as a "Dark Knight/Anti-paladin Class" because that is literally the archetype it was based on from WC3 onward (Arthas story is that of a paladin who falls from grace, all WC3 death knights are fallen Paladins, they were even initially called Anti-paladins.)

Heres one of the first images i get searching "Necromancer" on google images


Heres what i get searching "anti-paladin"



Which one is more evocative of the "Death Knight" fantasy? which one is more evocative of the "Necromancer" fantasy?

Why not use this Necromancer;


https://heroesofthestorm.com/en-us/heroes/xul/

He’s melee, and created by Blizzard.

I'm not talking about lore when i say Death Knights aren't spellcasters , Death Knights use spells in lore but they aren't "spellcasters" in a gameplay sense, Spellcasters rely on spells with cast time to deal damage (spellpower stat), instead of melee or ranged attacks (attack power stat).

Death Knights are not "spellcasters" in a gameplay definition because they do not rely on spells to deal damage, most of their damage is from melee strikes or other melee abilities. Unholy Death Knights are not standing at the back of the fight casting death coils, Frost DK's are not casting frost blasts, they are by design supposed to be in melee swinging their weapon only casting "spells" when nessessary (i.e to spend runic power, maintain a dot/debuff or on proc).

So we should create a Necromancer class because DKs have instant spells instead of spells with cast times?

If the purpose of the Death Knight class is to summon undead minions why to 2/3rds of the Death Knight classes specs only have a single summon on a 2 minute cooldown that lasts for a minute with no aspects of their spec that interact with that summon, only Unholy is designed with undead minions as a main element which are skeletons and ghouls and if 4 specs can share holy magic as a theme why can't Unholy Death Knights share a "undead minions" theme with a potential Necromancer spec especially given we have multiple other forms of undead such as ghosts, constructs, banshee/spectres, crypt fiends/nerubians that Death Knights do not deal with.

Holy magic is rather broad while Necromancy is rather narrow. A better comparison would be shadow magic and holy magic, and we have several classes who use shadow magic, including DKs. As for summoning, you’re forgetting Bloodworms and Dancing Rune Blade in the Blood Spec, a d Frost Wrym on the Frost spec.

So now the greater distinctions between similar classes matter but you can boil Necromancers and Death Knights down to just "necromancy", I also wasn't talking about why Holy Priest exists I was talking about why Holy Paladin's, Protection Paladins, Retribution Paladin exist when we already have a spec that uses "holy magic" since according to your logic Holy Paladin's, Protection Paladin's and Retribution Paladins are unnessary since we have a spec that uses Holy Magic (holy priest).

Again, because Priest use shadow magic. Paladins do not. Paladins use weapon and armor based holy magic, priests do not. Necromancers would offer nothing different than what the current class lineup offers.

Once again no Necromancer concept i've seen is pushing for an inverted death knight who uses Unholy, Frost and Blood magic just at range, they all try to incorperate some different form of death/necromantic magic or barring that give a different gameplay role to something we already have (like using blood magic to heal instead of tank).

Because the creators of those concepts are purposely avoiding the DK’s existing specs, which makes them seem so generic and unlike a WoW class.

Lore can be invented or altered, we're in an expansion that's introduced us to non-evil Necromancy users in the form of the Maldraxxi and other forms of Death-based magic in Ardenweald, Bastion and Revendreth, along with the introduction of Anima), we've seen other forms of death magic in the form of the Drust/Heartsbane coven, or Bwonsamdi's death magic or the blood magic of the Blood Trolls in Nazmir.

A Necromancer class doesn't need to be bound by how the Scourge or kel'thuzad were depicted.

Then who or what would it be based on? You expect a Shadowlands-based Necromancer after Shadowlands with no major lore character to base it on? That’s not how WoW classes are introduced.

[Ielenia]

I’m not ignoring anything. I’m simply saying that Demon Hunters were always rather distinct from Warlocks, Necromancers simply aren’t distinct from Death Knights.

As always: demonstrably false.

Heck, since they perform Necromancy, they’re Necromancers by default.

False.

The only real definition of a Necromancer is someone who practices Necromancy,

Objection! Presenting opinions as fact!

Why not use this Necromancer;

https://heroesofthestorm.com/en-us/heroes/xul/

He’s melee, and created by Blizzard.

Why not this necromancer: Heigan the Unclean. Or this necromancer: Noth the Plaguebringer. Or this necromancer: Grand Widow Faerlina. Or this necromancer: Kel'Thuzad. Or, hell, take anyone from this list.

So we should create a Necromancer class because DKs have instant spells instead of spells with cast times?

Blizzard created a warlock class with instant spells instead of spells with cast times with the demon hunter, so why not?

[Triceron]

Unfortunately a Necromancer class wouldn’t only have the 3 abilities they had in WC3.

Those are core Necromancer abilities found in many RPGs. Bone Shield for example is simply another name for Bone Armor, a common Necromancer ability in Diablo. Life Drain is a common Necromancer ability in D&D and other games.

Yep, which Blizzard has shown this expansion that they are able to come up with new Necromantic abilities not used or tied to the DK.

Bone shield you say? No need if they have given everyone Fleshcraft, which functionally does the same and does not take anything away from DKs.

Life Drain? No need if they have alternatives like Unholy Nova and Primordial Wave.

Like I said, everything you're conflating as taking away from a DK already exists in Covenants and you have zero problem with this.

You're still using invalid arguments. I haven't seen a single reason that you've brought up that hasn't been some absurd double standard or fabricated conflict.

[Imperator4321]

I’m not ignoring anything. I’m simply saying that Demon Hunters were always rather distinct from Warlocks, Necromancers simply aren’t distinct from Death Knights. Heck, since they perform Necromancy, they’re Necromancers by default. The only real definition of a Necromancer is someone who practices Necromancy, and that’s what the Death Knight does.

How are Warlocks and Demon Hunters distinct since both use "demonic magic" if we use the same reductive and simplistic way you view the distinction between Necromancers and Death Knights.

Why not use this Necromancer;


https://heroesofthestorm.com/en-us/heroes/xul/

He’s melee, and created by Blizzard.

Stop deflecting, you've been questioning for multiple posts why people who want a Necromancer class aren't satisfied with the Death Knight class, I pointed out that Death Knights and Necromancers have distinct themes and gameplay and derive from different archetypes, my images were to highlighted this, most images you see of a "necromancer" aren't heavily armored, melee fighting, undead warriors which are the traits of the Anti-Paladin/Death Knight/Dark Knight archetype that the Death Knight class derives from.

The common image of a necromancer is a cloth or lightly armored, staff or dagger wielder who casts spells and lets undead minions fight for him, that is the Necromancers archetype, that is what people ask for when they want a "Necromancer" not an Anti-Paladin/Dark Knight.

So we should create a Necromancer class because DKs have instant spells instead of spells with cast times?

"We" aren't creating anything, Blizzard is. All this thread is is people putting forward their suggestions for what they want/think it could be. Tinkers, Necromancers, Dark Rangers, Dragonsworn, ect all of these suggestions are not anymore likely than others because "we" aren't Blizzard.

Necromancers if they were added would likely have the gameplay design common to spellcasters such having cast times, using spellpower to calculate damage, not being melee, that inherently makes them different from Death Knights on a gameplay level because Death Knights are melee fighters with very few cast times, Same way Demon Hunters are inherently different on a gameplay level from Warlocks due to being a highly mobile melee fighter with no cast times.

Holy magic is rather broad while Necromancy is rather narrow. A better comparison would be shadow magic and holy magic, and we have several classes who use shadow magic, including DKs. As for summoning, you’re forgetting Bloodworms and Dancing Rune Blade in the Blood Spec, a d Frost Wrym on the Frost spec.

Necromancy/Death magic is only "narrow" because it fits your narrative, Shadowlands has greatly expanded what Necromancy/Death magic can do and it's visuals with the introduction of Maldraxxus, Bastion, Ardenweald and Revendreth, all of the covenant abilities we have are Necromancy/Death Magic.

Stop conflating gameplay with lore, spell schools are a gameplay mechanic not lore, Death Knights do not use Shadow/Void magic they use Necromancy/Death Magic, the only classes and specs by lore that use Shadow magic are Rogues (Subtlety), Priests (Shadow, Discipline) and Warlocks (All specs).

When people talk about a class/specs thats a summoner people talk about a class that has summon-based gameplay abilities on a permanent or frequent basis i.e Warlocks or Unholy, Blood DK's and Frost DK's are not summoners because they have barely noticable worms, or a weapon that lasts 8 seconds on a 2 minute cooldown or Frost DK's have a "summon" thats actually a spell effect with no actual summoning component (on a 3 minute cooldown). Nobody in their right mind calls Frost or Blood DK a "Pet class" or a "summon class" same way people don't call Monks a pet or summon class because they can summon a celestial or a statue because that isn't what a pet class or a summoner class is in a gameplay sense.

Again, because Priest use shadow magic. Paladins do not. Paladins use weapon and armor based holy magic, priests do not. Necromancers would offer nothing different than what the current class lineup offers.

Because the creators of those concepts are purposely avoiding the DK’s existing specs, which makes them seem so generic and unlike a WoW class.

Necromancers only "offer nothing different" because you actively refuse to acknowledge anything other than the Blood, Frost, Unholy as potential themes and think that any Necromancery/Death Magic using class has to conform to that trio of themes even though we have an entire expansion that has greatly expanded on what Necromancy/Death magic is.

When something is reinterpreting Blood, Frost or Unholy you say it's too similar to whats there (even when it completely changes the gameplay role) when it offers something different you say it's "too generic" or "unlike WoW" (as if you're the arbiter of what is/isn't WoW), there is no discussion because you actively ignore or change the rules to decry anything that isn't a concept you personally advocate for, as if people advocating for things other than what you like is somehow preventing what you like from getting in, nothing here is getting in because some people on a forum suggest it, a class will get added because of popular demand or because it's an archetype thats not fulfilled by anything else, Death Knights are not stopping Necromancers because they are different archetypes, same way warlocks and demon hunters are different archetypes, same way priests and paladins are different archetypes.

Then who or what would it be based on? You expect a Shadowlands-based Necromancer after Shadowlands with no major lore character to base it on? That’s not how WoW classes are introduced.

I don't think we'll get a Shadowlands-based Necromancer immediately after Shadowlands but in the future if themes of death or afterlife ever become prominent same way i think if we ever deal with demonic themes again we could have the Demon Hunter class be opened to more races, or if the next is filler (i.e world revamp) expansion with design room (which i think would work as a way to introduce Tinkers without needing a "tech-expansion").

Shadowlands has set the precedence for non-evil necromancy in the form of the shadowlands covenants, opened up that non-evil necromancy to non-evil, non-scourge people to become Necromancers, all they need to say is: the breaking of the veil and the adventures/journey in the realms of the shadowlands has cause new knowledge of death magic to become more common among the people of Azeroth leading to new Necromancers who aren't evil scourge/cult of the damned members, same way pandaren leaving the wandering isle to join the factions allowed everyone to learn how to be monks.

[Teriz]

Yep, which Blizzard has shown this expansion that they are able to come up with new Necromantic abilities not used or tied to the DK.

Bone shield you say? No need if they have given everyone Fleshcraft, which functionally does the same and does not take anything away from DKs.

Life Drain? No need if they have alternatives like Unholy Nova and Primordial Wave.

Like I said, everything you're conflating as taking away from a DK already exists in Covenants and you have zero problem with this. But if we are applying it to a fictional Necromancer class, suddenly the only path you see is taking directly from Death Knights.

No need to worry about these fabricated conflicts. Covenants has already paved the way, and provided dozens of abilities and mechanics that would not conflict with a DK nor get funneled back into their class. Mechanics-wise, you can even adapt some of the other Covenant abilities back into a Necromantic or Poison/Alchemical theme, like Mage's Radiant Spark could be rethemed into Plague Spore, summoning an orb-like effect that radiates Poison damage over time. It's that simple.

Again, an expansion feature is not the same as a class. Also, unless we have another death expansion next, you won’t be seeing a new Necromancer class using these themes anytime soon, or ever, since they can simply be placed in the Death Knight class.

[Triceron]

Again, an expansion feature is not the same as a class.

So you are saying an expansion feature can create new abilities that aren't taking away from the DK, but a Necromancer class can not?

Focus here. What Maldraxxus abilities have _taken away_ from the DK class? Remember, this is the issue you have brought up. The DK wouldn't need Fleshcraft, they have Bone Shield. These abilities are functionally freed up after Shadowlands.

they can simply be placed in the Death Knight class.

Raise Dead is the _only_ iconic Necromancer ability that the DK has. The Necrolord Covenant abilities are practically new variations of tools that the DK class already has, like AOEs, Self Heals and Direct damage abilities. There are also abilities that don't quite fit the Death Knight archetype, like turning into a Skeletal Mage to cast spells or using a Bonedust Brew. Those would actually fit a Necromancer class because the covenant was themed around spellcasting, alchemy-using Necromancers.

You have claimed that DK abilities would need to be taken away in order to have Necromancers, and so far Necrolord Covenants has provided new Necromancer themed abilities for all classes without taking anything away from the DK.

That argument is invalid.

[Traveler Voltin]

how do you keep the theme of necromancer without the overlap of gameplay with DK and Warlocks?

[Triceron]

how do you keep the theme of necromancer without the overlap of gameplay with DK and Warlocks?

What gameplay would be overlapped? Hard to answer when there's no actual gameplay to discuss. Hard to provide examples if we don't know what you define as acceptable overlap, considering all classes have some level of overlapping gameplay.

For example, DKs and Warlocks both use summons. How much of this gameplay would you consider as overlap and as acceptable?

Paladins and Priests both have a Holy healing spec. How much overlap do you deem acceptable and unacceptable? Is sharing the theme too much? Should both specs have shielding abilities? Is just having unique abilities for each spec (ie Paladin Beacon of Light) enough to be considered not overlapping? We should set a standard to discuss.

[jellmoo]

how do you keep the theme of necromancer without the overlap of gameplay with DK and Warlocks?

By giving them different abilities that function in a unique way mechanically. The same as with every other class in the game.

[Traveler Voltin]

What gameplay would be overlapped? Hard to answer when there's no actual gameplay to discuss. Hard to provide examples if we don't know what you define as acceptable overlap, considering all classes have some level of overlapping gameplay.

For example, DKs and Warlocks both use summons. How much of this gameplay would you consider as overlap and as acceptable?

Paladins and Priests both have a Holy healing spec. How much overlap do you deem acceptable and unacceptable? Is sharing the theme too much? Should both specs have shielding abilities? Is just having unique abilities for each spec (ie Paladin Beacon of Light) enough to be considered not overlapping? We should set a standard to discuss.

you really love pushing that priest and paladin thing even though its been debunk many times.

[Triceron]

you really love pushing that priest and paladin thing even though its been debunk many times.

What is debunked?

You asked gameplay overlap. So what do you actually mean by overlapping gameplay?

If you can't define it, then there's nothing we can discuss. If you don't think Paladin and Priest overlap, then explain the standard so we can discuss how this applies to the Necromancer.

[Ielenia]

how do you keep the theme of necromancer without the overlap of gameplay with DK and Warlocks?

What overlap? Paladins and priests heavily overlap with the holy magic theme. Mages and death knights heavily overlap with the frost theme. The mage did not lose any frost ability when the death knight was added.