If they made a new class in the future, what would it be?

[TheRevenantHero]

No. Deathknights are necromancers. There is absolutely nothing stating you can't be melee necromancer as Anduin is a priest and uses sword + plate armor.
And it's not "only for gameplay reasons", this is the core of their class.

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You still haven't, for 62 pages, made any real, non-strawman argument that actually can hold itself. And you seem to be forgetting that warlocks got stripped of DH abilities to make room for them.


Reality is super fucking simple.
1. There are many different kind of priests, mages, warlocks, necromancers in the game as NPCs can do practically anything including using spells from 5 different classes.
2. However a playable necromancer is death knight and it was already confirmed by blizzard.
3. Because it has to hold both unique gameplay and abide lore restrictions.

HILARIOUS that you accuse me of a strawman when you have made a strawman argument right above your accusation. Saying that there can't be a necromancer caster because death knights exist is LITERALLY like saying demon hunter shouldn't be in game because warlocks exists or paladin shouldn't be in the game because priest exists. Your logic is utterly flawed. Blizzard can easily make unique spells for a necromancy spellcaster like they did with changing warlock to make room for DH. But you'd prefer to make asinine comments like this.

[VinceVega]

DKs are necromancers. They use necromancy, have spells that raises dead and commands the undead. That is literal necromancy. Saying its completely different concept is like saying vanilla icecreams is something completely different than strawberry icecream.

They are essentially the same just a different flavor.

People don't realize that we don't need another generic caster that is not unique at all.

Just becuase they use the same kind of magic does not make them the same.... otherwise Paladins and Priest are the same. Ele Shamans and Fire/Ice Mages are the same. Hell even warlocks and DHs would be the same.
Gameplay is what makes them different. Not the color of their abilities.

[kaminaris]

A priest that uses a sword and plate armor is a paladin.

Or a priest. Anduin is not a paladin.

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HILARIOUS that you accuse me of a strawman when you have made a strawman argument right above your accusation. Saying that there can't be a necromancer caster because death knights exist is LITERALLY like saying demon hunter shouldn't be in game because warlocks exists or paladin shouldn't be in the game because priest exists. Your logic is utterly flawed. Blizzard can easily make unique spells for a necromancy spellcaster like they did with changing warlock to make room for DH. But you'd prefer to make asinine comments like this.

See the bolded part? Have you ever actually considered a possibility that blizzard already considered it and it turned out to be a DK? Because that's exactly what happened.

Blizzard can also make WoW sequel as they are absolutely capable of doing that, will they do it? Unlikely, you are asking for mental gymnastics. And when you have to reach pinnacle of imagination to design something unique then you already know that whole idea is flawed.

[TheRevenantHero]

Or a priest. Anduin is not a paladin.

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See the bolded part? Have you ever actually considered a possibility that blizzard already considered it and it turned out to be a DK? Because that's exactly what happened.

Blizzard can also make WoW sequel as they are absolutely capable of doing that, will they do it? Unlikely, you are asking for mental gymnastics. And when you have to reach pinnacle of imagination to design something unique then you already know that whole idea is flawed.

Oh, my bad. I didn't know you worked for Blizzard and can therefore speak for them.

Oh wait...I doubt you do which means you comment of "Because that's exactly what happened" is nothing but conjecture. Also, Anduin is a priest yet he wears plate and uses a sword. So once again, why have paladin when priest exists right? Talk about mental gymnastics lmao.

[kaminaris]

Just becuase they use the same kind of magic does not make them the same.... otherwise Paladins and Priest are the same. Ele Shamans and Fire/Ice Mages are the same. Hell even warlocks and DHs would be the same.
Gameplay is what makes them different. Not the color of their abilities.

What are you even on about?

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Magic_schools_(lore)

Necromancy[9] — Study of magic involving the dead. Not used by mages, but basics taught to understand their enemies.
NPCs can do anything, players have to abide both gameplay and lore.

So if DK uses necromancy magic he is in fact necromancer.

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Oh, my bad. I didn't know you worked for Blizzard and can therefore speak for them.

Oh wait...I doubt you do which means you comment of "Because that's exactly what happened" is nothing but conjecture. Also, Anduin is a priest yet he wears plate and uses a sword. So once again, why have paladin when priest exists right? Talk about mental gymnastics lmao.

No need to speak for them, they spoke it themselves.

Yeah. I think the class choice was super hard and eventually we had it down to three front runners which was pretty cool. We were talking for awhile about a necromancer. He would kind of be a range caster, do a lot of corpse explode, that sort of thing. Things we ended up incorporating into the death knight. We also had a cool idea for a rune master. That was going to be more of a melee type. Think rogue or monk type character, but death knight ultimately fit.

From Jeff interview. And it is a fact, that blizzard considered necromancer, also it is a fact that they did incorporated it into DK.

And read posts carefully as you are obviously grasping at straws, NPC can do anything, playable characters can't. It has to be somewhat unique, abide lore and have sensible rotation. NPC won't give a shit his rotation is 2 button borefest.

[TheRevenantHero]

What are you even on about?

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Magic_schools_(lore)

Necromancy[9] — Study of magic involving the dead. Not used by mages, but basics taught to understand their enemies.
NPCs can do anything, players have to abide both gameplay and lore.

So if DK uses necromancy magic he is in fact necromancer.

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No need to speak for them, they spoke it themselves.



From Jeff interview. And it is a fact, that blizzard considered necromancer, also it is a fact that they did incorporated it into DK.

And read posts carefully as you are obviously grasping at straws, NPC can do anything, playable characters can't. It has to be somewhat unique, abide lore and have sensible rotation. NPC won't give a shit his rotation is 2 button borefest.

They said the exact same thing about demon hunter as it was supposed to be released in TBC. So there is precedent already for them changing their minds. And you're basically saying that gameplay trumps lore which is 100% asinine.

[VinceVega]

What are you even on about?

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Magic_schools_(lore)

Necromancy[9] — Study of magic involving the dead. Not used by mages, but basics taught to understand their enemies.
NPCs can do anything, players have to abide both gameplay and lore.

So if DK uses necromancy magic he is in fact necromancer.

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No need to speak for them, they spoke it themselves.



From Jeff interview. And it is a fact, that blizzard considered necromancer, also it is a fact that they did incorporated it into DK.

And read posts carefully as you are obviously grasping at straws, NPC can do anything, playable characters can't. It has to be somewhat unique, abide lore and have sensible rotation. NPC won't give a shit his rotation is 2 button borefest.

Heavens dude. I am not saying death knights don't use necromancy. They obviously do. But just because they use the same magic doesn't mean they are the same with everyone who uses necromancy. KaeltThuzad is not called a deakth knight no?

What you are doing is nitpicking on semantics. You know exactly whta everyone is telling you.

Also you quoted out of a disputed section where there are NO references.

[eternal curse]

Or a priest. Anduin is not a paladin.

Anduin is a paladin. A priest that puts on plate armor and wields a sword becomes a paladin. That is how the paladin class was created in WC2. It was a fusion of knights and clerics.

[kaminaris]

They said the exact same thing about demon hunter as it was supposed to be released in TBC. So there is precedent already for them changing their minds. And you're basically saying that gameplay trumps lore which is 100% asinine.

No, stop grasping at straws, gameplay doesn't trump lore. Read again what I said.

I will give you explanation last time, if you can't understand it, then its on you.

In the word of "WoW" can there be a priest that uses plate armor and is not a paladin? Yes.
Can player do that? No.

Lore doesn't state a necromancer has to be cloth spellcaster. Lore doesn't put restrictions that specific "class" cannot use spells from other schools or even non-related classes.

BUT

Gameplay does put that restriction.

[TheRevenantHero]

No, stop grasping at straws, gameplay doesn't trump lore. Read again what I said.

I will give you explanation last time, if you can't understand it, then its on you.

In the word of "WoW" can there be a priest that uses plate armor and is not a paladin? Yes.
Can player do that? No.

Lore doesn't state a necromancer has to be cloth spellcaster. Lore doesn't put restrictions that specific "class" cannot use spells from other schools or even non-related classes.

BUT

Gameplay does put that restriction.

Which is saying gameplay trumps lore. You're saying we can't have a necromancer caster class because death knights exist despite the lore stating there are necromancers that are NOT death knights. The only restriction right now is DK being a death based class which is what you and Teriz use as a reason for not necromancy caster. Which is what is asinine.

[kaminaris]

Anduin is a paladin. A priest that puts on plate armor and wields a sword becomes a paladin. That is how the paladin class was created in WC2. It was a fusion of knights and clerics.

Nope, he is a priest:
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Anduin_Wrynn#Abilities_2

Despite wearing full plate armor and wielding Shalamayne in combat during the battle for Lordaeron, Anduin is still a priest and not a paladin.[7]

https://warcraft.blizzplanet.com/blo...nel-transcript

Q&A participant: Hi, I’m Nick from Illidan. My question is, is there any plans for a stat squish? If so, what’s it going to look like? Also, is Anduin a paladin officially?

Alex Afrasiabi: Stats squish, Ion can talk about. Anduin is 100% not a Paladin. He is a priest. He is just a hero character, and hero characters can do things that normal priests cannot.

[eternal curse]

Nope, he is a priest:
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Anduin_Wrynn#Abilities_2

That's because they intended to make him a priest, and then decided to make him a paladin.

[VinceVega]

Which is saying gameplay trumps lore. You're saying we can't have a necromancer caster class because death knights exist despite the lore stating there are necromancers that are NOT death knights. The only restriction right now is DK being a death based class which is what you and Teriz use as a reason for not necromancy caster. Which is what is asinine.

I give up with them^^

He quotes from wowwiki but ignores the complete page dedicated to necromancers... with a list of ingame necromancers... who are not deathknights....
But he argues about how Death Knight are necromancers because the you use necromancy. Which is kinda true but not if you take it as class names. Then they are death knights nothing else.

[kaminaris]

Which is saying gameplay trumps lore. You're saying we can't have a necromancer caster class because death knights exist despite the lore stating there are necromancers that are NOT death knights. The only restriction right now is DK being a death based class which is what you and Teriz use as a reason for not necromancy caster. Which is what is asinine.

You got it backwards. In lore you can have a death knight that can use paladin abilities. But players cannot for gameplay reasons.

You can't have necromancer caster because DK is partially caster as well (there is quite a lot of ranged caster abilities in DK arsenal) and uses quite a lot of abilities from npc caster necromancers.
Also because blizzard already considered it and they didn't do it - technically they did it but as some different vision.
Also because it would be hard to make it unique. Lets be honest, they won't do mental gymnastics just to make ranged clothed spellcaster that is totally different from DK.

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That's because they intended to make him a priest, and then decided to make him a paladin.

They intended to make him priest, and he remained a priest.

[TheRevenantHero]

You got it backwards. In lore you can have a death knight that can use paladin abilities. But players cannot for gameplay reasons.

You can't have necromancer caster because DK is partially caster as well (there is quite a lot of ranged caster abilities in DK arsenal) and uses quite a lot of abilities from npc caster necromancers.
Also because blizzard already considered it and they didn't do it - technically they did it but as some different vision.
Also because it would be hard to make it unique. Lets be honest, they won't do mental gymnastics just to make ranged clothed spellcaster that is totally different from DK.

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They intended to make him priest, and he remained a priest.

All right I'm not even going to bother responding to you anymore. You accuse people of moving goalposts, mental gymnastics, and strawman arguments yet you have yet to make a point that isn't an example of ALL of those things. I already have to deal with Teriz doing it. I'm not gonna deal with you doing it too.

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I give up with them^^

He quotes from wowwiki but ignores the complete page dedicated to necromancers... with a list of ingame necromancers... who are not deathknights....
But he argues about how Death Knight are necromancers because the you use necromancy. Which is kinda true but not if you take it as class names. Then they are death knights nothing else.

Yeah it's impossible with people like him. I'm convinced him and Teriz are part of some kind of insane cult that refuses to acknowledge any point that doesn't support their narrative since they all parrot the same inane points.

[kaminaris]

All right I'm not even going to bother responding to you anymore. You accuse people of moving goalposts, mental gymnastics, and strawman arguments yet you have yet to make a point that isn't an example of ALL of those things. I already have to deal with Teriz doing it. I'm not gonna deal with you doing it too.

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Yeah it's impossible with people like him. I'm convinced him and Teriz are part of some kind of insane cult that refuses to acknowledge any point that doesn't support their narrative since they all parrot the same inane points.

And this is another example of grasping at straws. 63 pages and not even a single sensible argument why would blizzard introduce a necromancer if they literally said they did it as DK.

All you do is repeat "inane" "asinine" and other completely irrelevant words that just make a word salad.

Your only argument is "b-b-but blizzard COULD do it".

Lets gather facts, 100% pure facts:

1. Blizzard already considered necromancer as clother ranged spellcaster
2. Blizzard incorporated this idea into DK
3. Lore does not impose restrictions on what/who/when can be necromancer.
4. Lore does not impose restrictions on what "class" can cast which spells.
5. DK has couple abilities taken from "ranged spellcaster necromancers".

[TheRevenantHero]

And this is another example of grasping at straws. 63 pages and not even a single sensible argument why would blizzard introduce a necromancer if they literally said they did it as DK.

All you do is repeat "inane" "asinine" and other completely irrelevant words that just make a word salad.

Your only argument is "b-b-but blizzard COULD do it".

Lets gather facts, 100% pure facts:

1. Blizzard already considered necromancer as clother ranged spellcaster
2. Blizzard incorporated this idea into DK
3. Lore does not impose restrictions on what/who/when can be necromancer.
4. Lore does not impose restrictions on what "class" can cast which spells.
5. DK has couple abilities taken from "ranged spellcaster necromancers".

And all you're doing is copy pasting wrong comments you've already made. Nice.

[cocomen2]

Yeah it's impossible with people like him. I'm convinced him and Teriz are part of some kind of insane cult that refuses to acknowledge any point that doesn't support their narrative since they all parrot the same inane points.

So much this , i am not against idea of any new class (even Tinker) if Blizz can make it cool and fun to play its ok for me , but after some INSANE posts from Tinker-fans i am not so sure , maybe someone pays them to spewing bullshit like this :

Gameplay overrides lore.

To the point that feels like Teriz getting $ for each 100 times he says "Tinker", he attacks any idea of Alchemy spec in any other fan-concept since its threatens his own concept of Tinker who must be the only one to have access to Alchemy.

[Triceron]

That's because they intended to make him a priest, and then decided to make him a paladin.

Just because you keep saying that it doesn't actually make it true, you know that right?

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And this is another example of grasping at straws. 63 pages and not even a single sensible argument why would blizzard introduce a necromancer if they literally said they did it as DK.

Because class skins could be a thing.

[username993720]

Nah. An Alchemy spec is better served as a healing spec utilizing concepts from the WC3 hero. Much more interesting, and not a retread of what we already have in the DK class.

Example;



Instead of riding on mechs, the Alchemist healing spec would ride on Orgres/Hobgoblins.

I didn't say the Goblin Alchemist wouldn't be one. one specialization would be dedicated to the Goblin Alchemist, the other one to Forsaken Apothecary and the third to Troll Witch Doctor (although, i would like it more to be part of the Shadow Hunter kit). that way, you condense all Alchemist thematics (that i could find) into one class. You get the Goblin Alchemist, Lelenia gets the Apothecary and i get the Witch Doctor. what could be better than this?

Another look to the Apothecary specialization:

Mechanically Shadowstep is still a a blink (a targeted one but still a blink), Maiev when she became a Heroes of the Storm character also didn't get the same type of blink she had in WC3 because Zeratul already essentially had the wardens kit from WC3 and she needed to be distinct, a Warden class would face a similar dilemma since Blink now belongs to mages. translating MOBA and RTS abilities into an MMO (entirely different perspective/gameplay) is also not something that would happen on a 1:1 basis. Death Knights in WC3 had Animate Dead which raised units as invulnerable minions under the DK's control it got translated into a WoW ability as both army of the dead which create multiple minions and raise ally which didn't turn them into invulnerable minions but still brought an ally back to life as a combat rez. Spirit of Vengeance and Secret Technique both create shadow clones and while they do preform different functions theres no evidence that Spirit of Vengeance would be translated 1:1 from it's WC3 incarnation to a WoW incarnation (and since other WC3 abilities were changed in the transition to WoW they probably wouldn't be translated 1:1)

Let assassination and subtlety rogues use warglaives, add a warden style glaive to the warglaive transmogs, add a cosmetic warden armor set transmog and play a night elf Subtlety/Assassination rogue with all those options and you'd have a Warden both in gameplay and visuals.

Rogues in the warcraft universe are not inherently criminals, SI7 and the Shattered Hand (new horde version not the original orc clan) are non-criminal organizations that are staffed by rogue (as in the class) and serve as spys and agents. Warden's play a similar role in Night Elf society as secret police, jailors and marshals.



As I said an NPC showing unique abilities outside the norm for their class is not the basis for an entire class, why do Dark Rangers show up as members of the Hunter Class Hall if they aren't considered Hunters, Anduin is still a priest even though he uses stuff from outside his supposed class, thrall was a shaman despite wearing plate, Tidesages cannot be accurately matched in full abilities by any class.

Attaching 2 unrelated concepts the Dark Ranger only shows how barren and narrow a concept they are as a entire class that you had to force two completely unrelated concepts just to give them 3 specs.



Demon Hunters were given a distinct gameplay niche from rogues and warlocks in the form of their vertical mobility (double jump, glide) low cooldown burst mobility (infernal strike, fel rush), disengage (vengful retreat) and sustain (soul orbs) that made them distinct from Rogues and Warlocks who they took traits (agile melee and fel magic) and abilities (metamorphosis) from and offered something new that couldn't nessessarily be added to warlocks or rogues, i don't particularly think they should have been a class in of themselves but can at least see some unique aspects to demon hunter gameplay that doesn't exist in other classes.

There may be new classes but if they are added they will be healthy additions to the game instead of whatever concept happens to be the recent obsession of fans because if they just added every concept fans propose the game would quickly become a bloated mess of redundant and superfluousclasses which majority of those classes you proposed would be because they already exist just not the way that 100% matches your fantasy.

Mechanically, Fel Rush, Displacer Beast, Wild Charge, Transcendence, Roll/Chi Torpedo, Flying Serpent Kick, Feral Lunge, Demonic Gateway, Demonic Circle, Charge and Heroic Leap all work similarly (getting you from one point to the other). if it was up to you, you would have removed them all and combined them into one ability, deserving of one class and one class only.

In Heroes of the Storm, Jaina has Ice Blink, Li-Ming has Teleport and Medivh has Portal.

Why on earth would they even dare overlap such abilities? according to you, there can only be one ability that is good for everyone. stop over simplifying everything. Shadowstep is not Blink. just because a Warlock can put on Shadow-based DoTs, doesn't mean a Priest can't, and shouldn't, do it too.

Zeratul Kit, apparently, resembles more of Valeera's: "When Valeera was designed, the developers decided to make her different from Heroes like Zeratul by really capturing one of the World of Warcraft Rogue fantasies of locking down an enemy Hero."

Death Coil and Metamorphosis belonged to the Warlock. and by magic, here we are - with two new classes, who took those abilities from the Warlock. the same can be done with the Mage's Blink.

I never said i wanted a carbon copy. They are supposed to be used as a basis, and an inspiration, to a new class.

Well, so does the Priest's Shadowy Apparitions create shadow clones of yourself (that float to the target). would you say a Warden is a shadow priest? Mages can create copies of themselves, using Mirror Image (which, is a Blademaster ability). wouldn't you say it's too much overlapping? and what about the Monk's Earth, Storm and Fire ability? again, creating copies of the player to fight for you. I think they are too damn similar and should all be tossed to the garbage, because god forbid that abilities would overlap, and let's just give them all to one class.

If they managed to take the Demon Hunter's Immolation and give it to the Warlock, while the Demon Hunter got Immolation aura, and if they managed to take the Death Coil ability from Warlocks and give it to the Death Knight, while Warlocks got Mortal Coil, and if they managed to give the Demon Hunter Mana Rift (instead of Mana Burn), and if they managed to give Demon Hunter Blur, while Rogues got Evasion - then, believe me, they could make the Warden distinct enough from a Rogue.

Wardens might be employed as Assassins, but they are more of a Jailer-kind of a Bounty Hunter. You can't, exactly, expect a Rogue to Backstab, Ambush or Mutilate with a giant Umbra Crescent glaive. The Subtlety Rogue is a Ninja, and Ninjas use Shurikens, Sai or Daggers, not Umbra Crescents.

You are right about the organizations resembling each other, though. I'll give you that.

Dark Rangers are present at the Hunter class order hall because they need representation. just like Priestesses of the Moon are found in the Priest class order hall. and yet, Priests are not known to be using bows, arrows and moon abilities. I didn't say Dark Rangers are, completely, different from the Hunter. in life, they were Rangers. in Death, they combine the Hunter abilities they had in life with the Necromancy of their Undead natures. Hunters do not use Necromancy, neither do their specializations embody it.

Wardens do not appear in the Rogue class order hall, Tinkers do not appear in the Hunter's class order hall, Blademasters do not appear in the Warriors class order hall and Shadow Hunters do not appear in the Shaman class order hall. does that mean they are unique enough to constitute classes of their own (according to your logic)?

You are right. i also think they are too barren to be a class on their own. just like we didn't believe a Demon Hunter could be a class on its own. and here we are, with a class that has two specs. saying they are, completely, unrelated is not true. all 3 use bows, magical arrows and spells. They could definitely be 3 different specializations of the same class. I suggested the 3 of them together because of their similarities, as well as to save up unnecessary class spots in future expansions (meaning, adding all 3 at once, instead of over the course of 3 expansions). and, by the way, i also suggested taking inspiration from Diablo 3's Demon Hunter class, as they are both ranged characters using dark powers (feminine, hooded figures with red eyes, sprouting shadowy tentacles from their backs and shooting shadowy arrows). and even Widowmaker from Overwatch (as she's based on Sylvanas), if you think the Dark Ranger is too narrow of a concept.

Same could be said on the Warden or Dark Ranger. if, and when, they are added, in retrospect, you could see how unique their gameplay is, in contrast with rogues and hunters - in a way that couldn't have been given to Rogues and Hunters. saying that, AFTER, a class in added is very easy. the challenge is to say it before it is added.

You are right. adding every fan concept class would make the game bloated and superficial. but, the thing is, it is not my concept - it is Blizzard's concept. i never came up with their abilities, talents or appearances. Blizzard did. i just suggest them because i see the pattern Blizzard is going for with their new added classes (Death Knight, Monk, Demon Hunter). Blizzard would, apparently, disagree with you - especially, after adding the Demon Hunter class, which had its abilities scattered all over other classes (Mana Burn went to the Priest, Immolation to the Warlock, Evasion to the Rogue and Metamorphosis to the Warlock). There was, absolutely, no reason to add them (according to your logic). The thing is, Blizzard is not operating according to your logic. my research into their classes-adding pattern led me to believe they are adding new classes, exclusively, from the Warcraft 3 hero units. Therefore, i researched into which heroes lack representation within WoW classes (remember, Demon Hunter had all of its abilities in WoW classes), and found out that the Blademaster, Priestess of the Moon, Dark Ranger, Naga Sea Witch, Shadow Hunter, Warden, Tinker and Alchemist lack sufficient representation within WoW classes. Therefore, i believe they will be added in the future. not because i deeply desire them, but because that's what i believe Blizzard will do.