Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Nymrohd]

What I was saying was that there is a significant population that would be pleased by this, far more than you indicated. These are not exact numbers and are dramatically reduced by WoW Analytica's data collection methods. If there were actually only 15k people that would benefit it would be a terrible investment, but I was using that as generalized evidence that there exists an audience for it. Outside of the dominant faction of the largest roleplaying realm's Alliance guilds (I don't recall precisely how WoW Analytica calculates guild numbers, but I think it's based on raiders alone, so this is even then only likely a small portion of the guilds on Alliance-MG) there are even more guilds with many members on other servers (even some non-roleplay servers) and on other factions that may benefit from player housing.

I figure that the number of guilds on roleplaying realms total would definitely justify guild halls as an addition, as well as the fact that there are surely some guilds on non-roleplaying guilds that would benefit from them. I believe that the total amount of people who would benefit from guild halls is actually quite large.

The investment into guild halls would also surely not be as large as you're making it out to be. Instanced, alterable environments would not require that much in the way of resources and time to make—we've seen private servers create alterable environments with far less in the way of resources, and guild-based instanced environments wouldn't be hard to make at all.

I know that in ESO even the hardcore raiders have houses. Heck Alcast who is pretty much what Elitist Jerks era Ion was for ESO (and ESO hard content is extremely elitist and extremely hard) and he still has a housing video or two (he even did one on the newest house which is about the size of a small raid). You don't need to add a ton of utility to it for everyone to care; in ESO many players have houses simply so they can practice their rotations in peace (the game completely depends on muscle memory given how twitch gameplay it is) and get some additional storage. That doesn't mean they start becoming asocial and hiding in their house all the time. But perhaps instead of just flying around the city or logging off when you need a bit of downtime you just check your house and see if you can plop Onyxia's framed head over the headboard.

- - - Updated - - -

Historically, part Lordaeron, part Gilneas before they walled themselves up and part Dalaran.

Lordaeron is huge and it becomes very evident back in vanilla when you do the Barov family title quests (and the Barov's really owned a lot of land!)

[Local Ardenweald Faerie]

I feel like they would have to add a small chunk of the top of each to fit Dal in its crator.

You don't actually need much space to get Dalaran to fit into the crater.

Here's something I made in a private server. A part from some minor clipping near the Violet Citadel, and a few of the spires jutting out of the ground, it works.

[Graden]

That would actually be a cool way to include them. Why revamp three separate zones when you can have them all as one big Gilnean zone?

But it won't happen. If it does, I will eat pant.

I'm waiting for something to happen with Gilneas for almost 12 years. If it does, I'm gonna shave my head. And I love my long hair.

But it ain't gonna happen, so I'm safe.....right?

[Le Conceptuel]

I know that in ESO even the hardcore raiders have houses. Heck Alcast who is pretty much what Elitist Jerks era Ion was for ESO (and ESO hard content is extremely elitist and extremely hard) and he still has a housing video or two (he even did one on the newest house which is about the size of a small raid). You don't need to add a ton of utility to it for everyone to care; in ESO many players have houses simply so they can practice their rotations in peace (the game completely depends on muscle memory given how twitch gameplay it is) and get some additional storage. That doesn't mean they start becoming asocial and hiding in their house all the time. But perhaps instead of just flying around the city or logging off when you need a bit of downtime you just check your house and see if you can plop Onyxia's framed head over the headboard.

I agree—I highly doubt that there will be a considerable social cost if housing is added, especially since most antisocial players already have all the tools and incentive to be antisocial anyways. Group and raid finder already did in socializing in the game and limited group formation, which was generally the core of it outside of guilds.

[Shadochi]

You don't actually need much space to get Dalaran to fit into the crater.

Here's something I made in a private server. A part from some minor clipping near the Violet Citadel, and a few of the spires jutting out of the ground, it works.

[IMG]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/671138390418128950/890354139702394900/WoWScrnShot_092221_174918.jpg[IMG]

I remember someone posting a image a while ago of an idea for dalaran landing with it being reworked and the surrounding expanded

[Le Conceptuel]

You don't actually need much space to get Dalaran to fit into the crater.

Here's something I made in a private server. A part from some minor clipping near the Violet Citadel, and a few of the spires jutting out of the ground, it works.

I do wonder if it would be worth it to get a private sever of my own for sandbox purposes since I want to generally screw around with mapmaking and proof of concepts. Is it worth it to do so? It seems like it's not illegal or anything when used for private purposes.

[draugril]

I know that in ESO even the hardcore raiders have houses. Heck Alcast who is pretty much what Elitist Jerks era Ion was for ESO (and ESO hard content is extremely elitist and extremely hard) and he still has a housing video or two (he even did one on the newest house which is about the size of a small raid). You don't need to add a ton of utility to it for everyone to care; in ESO many players have houses simply so they can practice their rotations in peace (the game completely depends on muscle memory given how twitch gameplay it is) and get some additional storage. That doesn't mean they start becoming asocial and hiding in their house all the time. But perhaps instead of just flying around the city or logging off when you need a bit of downtime you just check your house and see if you can plop Onyxia's framed head over the headboard.

Even Ion, who is seemingly completely disinterested in transmog, still wears prestige items. The Scarab Lord title, the Lightbringer tabard, the Precious' Ribbon... player housing is an extension of that. In a good system, a trained eye should be able to pick out "prestige" items that are associated with specific tasks, from gold sinks to raid kills.

[Local Ardenweald Faerie]

I do wonder if it would be worth it to get a private sever of my own for sandbox purposes since I want to generally screw around with mapmaking and proof of concepts. Is it worth it to do so? It seems like it's not illegal or anything when used for private purposes.

I don't exactly know if we're allowed to mention the name of a private server on here, but there's one that specifically lets you build your own places. You can also visit other places that people have made if they're public. There's a huge RP community there, but if you just want to build, you can focus on that.

[Le Conceptuel]

Even Ion, who is seemingly completely disinterested in transmog, still wears prestige items. The Scarab Lord title, the Lightbringer tabard, the Precious' Ribbon... player housing is an extension of that. In a good system, a trained eye should be able to pick out "prestige" items that are associated with specific tasks, from gold sinks to raid kills.

Admittedly, that would be a little different, although I'm far from of the belief that player housing is a bad idea—I do think that those things are a little more visible and mobile, whereas player housing is generally individual and isolated. I could see that working if others are allowed in your houses, though, either as guild halls or individual homes.

[Prenderghast]

I'm waiting for something to happen with Gilneas for almost 12 years. If it does, I'm gonna shave my head. And I love my long hair.

But it ain't gonna happen, so I'm safe.....right?

Mate, I've got long hair too, and I would shave my head for a playable, updated Gilneas with a world quest system in it. Never loved a zone's vibe more, and never been sadder to see a zone so quickly fade into irrelevancy. A revamped Lordaeron/Gilneas/North-Eastern Kingdoms might be my #1 most desired expansion theme.

[Local Ardenweald Faerie]

I remember someone posting a image a while ago of an idea for dalaran landing with it being reworked and the surrounding expanded

Yeah. Simply plopping Dalaran in the crater wouldn't work. You'd need to expand the surroundings, add roads and paths, a gate, outskirts...

My image was mostly just to prove that if it were to happen, it wouldn't require a huge chunk of real estate.

[Le Conceptuel]

I don't exactly know if we're allowed to mention the name of a private server on here, but there's one that specifically lets you build your own places. You can also visit other places that people have made if they're public. There's a huge RP community there, but if you just want to build, you can focus on that.

I've never liked the idea of actual private servers since they strike me as a form of piracy. I was more thinking just a personalized private server which I've seen some content creators and conceptual types tend to have on hand.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Yeah. Simply plopping Dalaran in the crater wouldn't work. You'd need to expand the surroundings, add roads and paths, a gate, outskirts...

My image was mostly just to prove that if it were to happen, it wouldn't require a huge chunk of real estate.

Well that'll never happen.

Most likely what they'd do is just plop it in, blow up that unused bit of mountain that's causing clipping issues, and maybe pare back some of the tress on the back side of Ambermill or w/e that place the mages have in Silverpine is called.

Then throw in a road that connects it down to the old Hillsbrad Farms (and maybe blow up the Sludge Fens that it became) and then be like "job's done."

[manypillars]

You don't need to add a ton of utility to it for everyone to care; in ESO many players have houses simply so they can practice their rotations in peace (the game completely depends on muscle memory given how twitch gameplay it is) and get some additional storage.

I don't really have any interest in housing, but without any functionality/utility other than private training dummies and crafting stations there would still probably be a ton of interest from people from all walks of content. They'd only make it a hated feature if it became mandatory. And if they start small and modest but design for easy expansion it might not be a huge drain on development resources to introduce it even if it flopped completely. This is a big thing in other MMOs, I don't think WoW players are uniquely uninterested.

[Graden]

Mate, I've got long hair too, and I would shave my head for a playable, updated Gilneas with a world quest system in it. Never loved a zone's vibe more, and never been sadder to see a zone so quickly fade into irrelevancy. A revamped Lordaeron/Gilneas/North-Eastern Kingdoms might be my #1 most desired expansion theme.

I feel your pain brother, I really do.

It's a deal then. We're gonna sacrifice our precious, long hair if needed. Everything for a fully revamped and playable Gilneas.

[SniperCT]

Admittedly, that would be a little different, although I'm far from of the belief that player housing is a bad idea—I do think that those things are a little more visible and mobile, whereas player housing is generally individual and isolated. I could see that working if others are allowed in your houses, though, either as guild halls or individual homes.

If it's like other games with housing there'll develop a sizable community. Plenty of people roam around the houses in FF14 (and many players set them up as 'shops' and social hubs. My wife's first floor is basically a bakery.

I remember back in vanilla I was in a guild that treated one of the empty taverns in the park district as their tavern. Had weekly events and everything.

I kind of miss that general idea of empty spaces that players can make their own. It really feels like 'everything must have a purpose' now and it kind of sucks.

[Grimbold21]

No, heroics being challenging was a huge problem. It was the dev team looking at the average player and saying "fuck you, we don't actually care what you want." And let me tell you, being told that is the absolute best way to break a MMO addiction.

The average player was doing fine in vanilla and TBC. Wrath, though, single handedly ruined - yes ruined - players' expectations of what challenging 5 men was and ought to be.

Any self respecting player that disagreed with that assessment at the time only did so because the content was so mind numbingly easy that they just wanted to get out of there fast.

However, you go ahead and try to rectify something that was obviously problematic and you shoot yourself in the foot, because now you've given everyone a nice sizeable taste of how... convenient the gogogogogo "system" was and now no one wants anything but that.

Much like with flying. "Hey, here's flying at max lvl. Just use some gold and fly away". Years later, "yea, we'll still have flying in the game, but you'll go through different, long stages to get it".

There you go, a split playerbase.

[draugril]

If it's like other games with housing there'll develop a sizable community. Plenty of people roam around the houses in FF14 (and many players set them up as 'shops' and social hubs. My wife's first floor is basically a bakery.

I remember back in vanilla I was in a guild that treated one of the empty taverns in the park district as their tavern. Had weekly events and everything.

I kind of miss that general idea of empty spaces that players can make their own. It really feels like 'everything must have a purpose' now and it kind of sucks.

Yep. We had empty islands we'd fly over to around Nagrand and later Dalaran.

[Le Conceptuel]

If it's like other games with housing there'll develop a sizable community. Plenty of people roam around the houses in FF14 (and many players set them up as 'shops' and social hubs. My wife's first floor is basically a bakery.

I remember back in vanilla I was in a guild that treated one of the empty taverns in the park district as their tavern. Had weekly events and everything.

I kind of miss that general idea of empty spaces that players can make their own. It really feels like 'everything must have a purpose' now and it kind of sucks.

That would be an excellent return to community, I say. Would be a boon to my fellow roleplayers.

[Jokubas]

Housing has been one of the most requested features since vanilla was in beta.

Kind of feels like a hail mary, tbh. A break glass in case of emergency type feature, sort of how like most players view Legion's existence after WoD.

I would welcome it for sure, though I might complain if its implemented poorly.

I absolutely wanted housing back then. I came from Ultima Online and it was just part of an MMO to me.

Nowadays... I still think it's a good idea, but my feelings on it have gotten a lot more complicated.

I used to hate any instanced housing system. To me the whole point of a house in an MMO was to feel like you were living in the world. Obviously, as MMOs got mainstream, that stopped being feasible just on a practical level, but the culmination for me no longer wishing for that was Shroud of the Avatar. That game tried to compromise a bit, where the game world was not explored freely, but on a map. In this way, players could make villages, that would appear on that map. This allowed for there to be both a way to instance the housing into those villages, but put them on the map like any other location so they felt equally like a part of the open world.

I liked that idea. The problem, for me, was that every one of these villages I visited were min-maxed for the sake of showcasing the player vendors. When every village in your medieval fantasy game looks like a shopping mall from Second Life, I didn't feel like I was playing a game anymore.

Of course, part of that also relates to how much control you have over the housing, which can be another complex topic. Personally, I would like something in-between. Too little control over the house or the decorations and it all sort of feels pointless (especially when it's instanced), too much and I'm never going to feel like I can actually make anything with it unless I hire someone to help me.

I think it could really breathe new life into World of Warcraft though. In the past, Blizzard has experimented with things like the Music Rolls or Battle Pets in old dungeons or zones. Player housing would be a way to do that permanently and perpetually. I mean, who is going to go back and get a Music Roll for their one-expansion-only Garrison? Music Rolls for player housing, however, is something that would be permanently meaningful content. There are a million things you could add this way, from little doodads, to Music Rolls, to mounted heads of old bosses to put on your wall, the possibilities are endless.

It absolutely needs to be personal though. Guild Halls always sound like a good idea, but I've never seen them implemented in a way that doesn't just create awkward have and have-not systems that arbitrarily punish different kinds of players. One of the most common ways this happens is by not having any of the Guild Hall stuff scale. In other words, the big guilds have no problem maxing everything out instantly, but a smaller guild of close friends can basically never actually do anything with their Guild Hall, if they can ever afford to build/buy one to begin with.